"Here's Purple!"

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Tinfish
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"Here's Purple!"

Postby Tinfish » 06 Oct 2014, 04:27

So I was watching an old TTC about the Theros prerelease (https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLV_qemO0oathhXijZT_xS9YbrzFZa2JwN&v=cnrwcZpe0LM) in which James stated "I'm probably going to go in and ask for the colour which is being least played", to which Paul replied "Here's purple, we made this special deck just now for you."

Now of course purple mana will never exist, because it would completely mess up the colour pie and require the addition of multiple new guilds to Ravnica, new clans to Khans, and an extra shard to Alara ... but this insane, very silly idea has stuck in my head.

If you were put in charge of designing the purple colour, what would its basic land be? Which colours are its enemies and allies? What sort of creatures would it have? What sort of abilities and strategies would it focus on? Anyone who defaults to Izzet will be eaten by a grue.

Personally, I think that the purple colour naturally slots it in as an ally of blue and red, and its enemies would be ... black and white? Yeah, this messes up the colour pie something fierce. I'm having a lot of trouble imagining a suitably wide-reaching kind of land that isn't covered by flat stuff (plains) bumpy stuff (mountains) soggy stuff (swamps) REALLY soggy stuff (islands) or tree-y stuff (forests) ... it could be Mediocre Scrubland, but that sounds more like a colourless type. But this is a very silly idea, so I'm going to say that the land could be Fungal Wilds. Its mana symbol would be a mushroom, all thallids would be retconned to purple. Its cards would focus on bizarre, unworkable synergies - Tarmagoyf would be at home here, as would the venerable Urzatron.

Who's up for a mushroom deck? Do you have other plans for the sixth colour of magic? Is this a very silly idea? (Yes, yes it is)
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby Lurkon » 06 Oct 2014, 05:13

Do a Pivot Table!

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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby Asthanius » 06 Oct 2014, 09:17

Regardless of what Wizards tried to do with Planar Chaos, I feel like there's a very specific place you'd have to start at when creating a new color, and that's its motivation.

From MaRo's tumblr:

White seeks peace through structure.
Blue seeks perfection through knowledge.
Black seeks power through ruthlessness.
Red seeks freedom through action.
Green seeks acceptance through growth.

So what does that leave for Purple? Well, one thing to look at to figure this out is the Color Pie. We'd have to figure out what Purple's enemies and allies are, and whether or not that would change what already exists. I can think of only one way to keep the current allies/enemies and still incorporate a new color: put Purple in the center. If we do this, we can say that Purple is neither an ally nor an enemy of any color. Instead, it's something that sort of sits in the background, doing its own thing. Anybody could have a little Purple in them, and it wouldn't really change much, but it would come up in specific circumstances.

I think that Purple seeks experience through opportunity. Anybody else have an idea?
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby Lurkon » 06 Oct 2014, 09:42

One thing I don't like about the idea of a third color is the necessity of a completely new resource for it. This comes up in Ice Age with Snow Mana, which could only be paid from snow basics, but could come from any color snow basic. What you said about Purple being in the center gives me an interesting idea for how to deal with that.

Purple seeks experience through opportunity... the opportunity comes from the inherent splash-ability of Purple. If Purple, as a color, doesn't necessarily require it's own lands (it would still have them), then Purple could be splashed in any deck. It could be something akin to a hybrid mana, where purple-mana can just be cast by any-color. So each Purple-mana symbol would be equivalent to two colored-mana of any color. I feel like it would have to be colored-mana, no colorless, but being in the center of the color-pie would make that something.

The best part of it being in the center of the pie like that is it doesn't really make the color so much it's own thing that we need 5 more guilds, and extra three-color pairs.

ETA:
Currently it is a challenge to design around 10 guilds.
1-5-10-10-5-1 (colorless-mono-dual-trio-four-five)
With a sixth color, we get 15 guilds and...
1-6-15-120? 40-15-6-1 (colorless-mono-dual-trio-four-five-six)
120 40 three color combos. That is... a lot. I feel like my math has got to be wrong... Ok, fixed it.
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby Asthanius » 06 Oct 2014, 10:57

I'm suprised that we actually had pretty similar ideas on how Purple mana would work, although I was thinking that Purple mana CAN be made with 2 colorless.

Looking at these cards, we see that 2 colorless mana can, at times, be used to substitute for one mana of any color. Given Purple's placement in the center, I feel like all other colors and colorless would have equal opportunities to "make" Purple mana.

Basically, 1 Purple mana can be paid with 2 non-Purple mana.

Now, because of problems with domain and cards referencing basic lands, Purple's land can't be basic, it just can't. The rules can't handle it, there'd have to be an insane amount of errata done on a bunch of cards, it's just not worth the hassle. So instead, Purple would have a non-basic land, which wouldn't affect the playability of Purple spells too much due to the ability to make it out of 2 other colors of mana (or 2 colorless mana). Because it's non-basic, it can't be something ubiquitous like islands or mountains or forests, although it also can't be something unnatural like a city. Red and Black already have caves (which were considered in the article linked in the second post), so that's not an option. Clouds, a commonly suggested land for a sixth color, are Blue (they're made of water and are in the air). There aren't really any naturally occuring places/things that aren't already taken by an existing color.

However.

There are the Blind Eternities, the place where the Eldrazi came from, where Planeswalkers go between planes, and where creatures are summoned from. It's also home to mana and temporal energy, which helps justify how to make Purple mana (the Blind Eternities are flooded with mana) and also Purple's motivation (there's a large amount of temporal energy in the Blind Eternities, and time leads to both opportunities and experience). So what if the only land dedicated to making Purple mana was a legendary land called Blind Eternities? After all, the players are planeswalkers, so they should have access to it.

Blind Eternities
Legendary Land
Blind Eternities cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
Indestructible (Effects that say "destroy" don't destroy this land.)
{t}: Add [p] to your mana pool.

And if you think you can try to get rid of the Blind Eternities, you're going to have to try pretty hard.
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby Tinfish » 08 Oct 2014, 01:49

The fact that WOTC actually (semi)seriously considered this kinda takes the wind out of my sails. Aww, I woulda liked the fungal jungles. Fear my shroomancers!
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby Gildan_Bladeborn » 10 Oct 2014, 04:19

Asthanius wrote:Blind Eternities
Legendary Land
Blind Eternities cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
Indestructible (Effects that say "destroy" don't destroy this land.)
{t}: Add [p] to your mana pool.

And if you think you can try to get rid of the Blind Eternities, you're going to have to try pretty hard.

There are actually a lot of ways to potentially get rid of that land, though only a few are what I would consider "reliable" ways to do so. Here's a list of cards legal in Commander that can make an indestructible, shrouded land go away.

    Things that will definitely make it go away (and stuff that eventually would ensure it goes away by process of elimination).
    1. Decree of Annihilation - Definitely does the trick, as all lands in play get exiled (along with almost everything else).
    2. Global Ruin - as the proposed land is non-basic, this would make the controller sacrifice it unless they have a way to grant it a basic land type without needing to target it themselves (because they can't).
    3. Epicenter - cast normally there's a chance you could make the opponent sacrifice that particular land, cast it with Threshold though and it definitely gets sacrificed as everyone has to sacrifice all lands.
    4. Destructive Flow - How reliably this works depends a lot on the board state at the time and when it is cast, but "eventually" if it remains in play it would force the controller of Blind Eternities to sacrifice it once they run out of all other non-basic lands in play.
    5. Mana Vortex - It's not even slightly reliable because it allows for the sacrifice of any land to meet the requirements, but if it sticks around long enough and everyone doesn't always make their land drop each turn forever until the game ends (or ramp into more to outrace the effect), all lands in play will get sacrificed.
    6. Desolation - Like Mana Vortex, only conditional and at the end step, so even less likely to actually make them sacrifice it, but if left in play one must either play at least 1 land each turn or not tap any lands for mana during a turn to not wind up 1 land down each turn.

    Things that make it go away for certain, but only temporarily.
    1. Realm Razer - exiles all lands when it enters, they come back when it leaves.
    2. Herald of Leshrac - its cumulative upkeep cost (gain control of a land you don't control) doesn't actually target, but if it lives long enough that you run out of targets to keep paying the upkeep cost, the opponent you stole it from would get it back.

    Things that have a decent chance of making it go away.
    1. Devastating Dreams - Relies on random discard to make people sacrifice X lands (and then do other stuff), but if you have enough cards in hand to discard the amount of lands the player with Blind Eternities controls, well then they have to sacrifice it.
    2. Cataclysm - The only way this doesn't kill this land is if the controller of it picks that as the only land they get to keep.
    3. Death Cloud - A symmetric, and rather nasty effect that can be certain to 'splode the land if you pay enough into X (keeping in mind you make it that much worse for yourself of course).
    4. Tectonic Break - Everyone sacrifices X lands, so pay enough and you can make that "all of their lands".
    5. Keldon Firebombers - Everyone gets to pick 3 lands and the rest go in the bin.
    6. Destructive Force - Everybody sacrifices 5 lands, so if you only have 5, it's gone.
    7. Din of the Fireherd - If you control enough of the right color permanents when this resolves, they'll have to sac it, otherwise they'll have to sac probably a whole bunch that "might" include it.
    8. Burning Sands - How effective this will be depends on how many creatures they control and how reliably you can make them hit the yard, weighed against how many other lands they control.
    9. Earthlink - A dramatically worse version of the card above, with the same caveats.
    10. Destructive Urge - if you can reliably hit an opponent and keep the creature this is enchanting alive each turn, that's at least 1 land they'll have to sacrifice per turn (additional combat phases or doublestrike drive the number up).
    11. Wildfire - If cast on curve and if your opponent with this land has missed a land drop or two, then "everyone sacrifice 4 lands" will get it. Otherwise it just stands a decent chance of making them pick it.
    12. Thoughts of Ruin - with enough cards in hand you can make this hit 100% of the time, but if you have that many cards in hand when you cast this, you're definitely not playing Mono-Red, ha ha.

    Things that are incredibly unlikely to make it go away, but potentially could.
    1. Pox - Among other things, everyone sacrifices a third of their lands when this resolves, rounded up. So unless they only control 1, there's no way to ensure they pick it.
    2. Smallpox - A much less nasty version of Pox, which only forces players to sacrifice 1 land in total.
    3. Restore Balance - Unless the player who controls the least amount of lands controls zero when this resolves, you can't make them pick this particular land when it comes time to sacrifice stuff. Also it's worth noting that this card does exactly the same thing as Balance, just delayed for a few turns, and that Balance is banned in Commander, so while this is "legal" you would be very much ignoring the spirit of the banlist by putting it into your deck.
    4. Ember Swallower - Activating monstrosity makes everyone sac 3 lands, but realistically by the time you have enough mana to do that, they'll probably have more than 3 lands out.
    5. Rite of Ruin - If you pick Land last, everyone sacrifices 3, but at 7 mana to cast the odds are good you can't force someone to sacrifice Blind Eternities with this alone.
    6. Land Equilibrium - Incredibly conditional, and only forces them to sacricice "a" land if they want to play more when the triggering condition is met. Would work well after an Armageddon-style effect though, for a given definition of "well" that actually means "very clunky".
    7. Natural Balance - Very very conditional land destruction in the first place, and if it does fire, impacted players get to keep 5 of their choice.
    8. Lava Runner - Targeting this creature equals a mandatory land sacrifice, but unless you have some way to consistently force an opponent to target it without killing it... probably not getting rid of this land unless your opponent for some reason wants to.
    9. Release - The second half of Catch//Release, Release is a good spell that makes the target player sac a bunch of stuff, but only 1 land so probably not going to be this one.
    10. Razing Snidd - Everyone sacs a land when it enters, but it's a 6-drop so... they probably have other lands to pick.
    11. Akki Blizzard-Herder - Makes everyone sac 1 land when it dies.
    12. Hurloon Shaman - also makes everyone sac a land when it dies.
    13. Structural Collapse - Among other things, makes somebody sacrifice a land, but it costs 6 so unlikely it hits our intended target.
    14. Tainted Æther - Makes folks sacrifice either a creature or a land whenever a creature enters the battlefield under their control, so it's highly conditional and they always have the option to just sacrifice the creature instead.
    15. Tremble - Makes everyone sacrifice 1 land, and it's a 2-drop so if they turn 1 this land and you went before them, then you could get them to sacrifice it and not literally anything else. Otherwise probably not going to hit.
    16. Yawning Fissure - Makes each opponent sacrifice 1 land, but it costs 5 so the odds aren't great that it will be this land.
    17. Tyrant of Discord - You have as much chance of making them sacrifice our shrouded, indestructible land as you do making them sacrifice literally anything else they control, because they pick something at random. They do have to keep picking stuff until they randomly pick a land though, so the odds of it hitting 1 land out of the rest are 1 out of "how much land they have".
    18. Thresher Beast - Every time the defending player blocks the beast, they sacrifice a land. It's just a 4/4 though, so odds aren't great that it'll live long enough to get the job done by process of elimination.
    19/20. Argothian Wurm/Shivan Wumpus - Your opponent would have to choose to intentionally sacrifice that particular land to these creature's optional triggered effect for you to use them to remove the Blind Eternities, so pretty much the only way that would work is if you're controlling their turn at the time and flashing these creatures in.

I do not guarantee that the above set of lists is in any way exhaustive (indeed, right as I finished typing it, I remembered what Rakdos the Defiler does), but there's no way I'm combing through every single card in the history of Magic to ensure I didn't miss anything due to how they worded it or in case it combos with something else to indirectly do the job (like March of the Machines and Mycosynth Lattice). Also, I hasten to point out that I do not personally advocate actually running any of the cards I just listed in a Commander deck, unless for some reason you desperately need to lose all your friends (the ones I listed that won't make your friends mad at you are also cards you shouldn't play because they're not good).
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby Asthanius » 10 Oct 2014, 06:49

If you run any of those cards, you very likely are trying to get rid of everybody else's lands anyway. Anyway, the abilities on Blind Eternities are also there for flavor reasons.
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby WP&P » 12 Oct 2014, 05:25

I like Blind Eternities as the land, but as Legendary it does limit how much one can use purple mana, if it is the only thing on your board able to generate it. What if we venture into another unused game design space - Token Lands?

Blind E. could have the ability to tap (maybe with a pay-a-mana-cost too, like Nykthos) to produce a token land (named Eternity?), and the token land is what taps for purple.

Then, you could also have some spells that have an effect of producing another of these token lands, so that you're not dependent on the single legendary land for your deck to get going. Producing a token land could be an effect stapled onto lots of things - maybe even other lands, such as "When this land dies, put a token land named Eternity into play".
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby AtticusSparrow » 13 Oct 2014, 23:19

Hi, I'm new here so I may be posting wrong or something, but when I saw this thread it sparked my imagination, and I was thinking the Blind eternities need more than a single land representing them. In a sense its the space between all lands (or rather planes) where the rules (and colours) of the planes don't apply (and I had a wacky unglued-esk idea of the mechanics somehow relating to the table we play on, but thats silly).

Since we now know we'll be returning to fight the Eldrazi at some point (with the whole possible quest for Ugin thing in Fate Reforged), that means the Eldrazi can escape their prison and start eating into other planes across the multiverse. What if these tokens and the Purple Land are rips in the planes where the Blind eternities, the mana, and ideals associated with it are bleeding into the planes as the Multiverse is being ripped and torn by the Eldrazi. Perhaps the places Purple mana leaks into the planes and interacts with different colours could create aditional types of lands.

Also there could be effects for permanents coming into play or leaving the battlefield that rip the holes in the plane further by producing more tokens or by putting counteres on something, functioning a bit like Smokestack where eventually you loose everything.
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby AdmiralMemo » 14 Oct 2014, 07:01

Sounds just like like you want purple multi-lands, like purple/white or purple/green. Eternal Plains is a Plains that taps for purple or white and has some sort of other thing associated with it.

Or, you could have the Blind Eternities putting counters on regular lands somehow and have it say "Each land with an Eternity counter on it has '{t}: Add [p] to your mana pool.'"
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby Asthanius » 15 Oct 2014, 12:47

I was actually thinking that Blind Eternities would be printed in a set with reprints of the Karoo lands or the Shadowmoor/Eventide duals, because Purple mana could be made with 2 non-Purple mana. It'd be an easy way for decks to splash Purple.
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Re: "Here's Purple!"

Postby BarcodeReader » 21 Dec 2014, 14:08

Out-there Idea: what if Purple wasn't only its own color, but also something that could be used to to pay for something that casts for all 5 colors. Like 1W+1U+1B+1R+1G = 1P and vice versa, but P can only be used for spells in all 5 colors or Purple spells.
Edit: or 1 mana for colorless spells.
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