Standard Discussion

A place to talk about standard, casual, limited and everything in between.
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square1
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby square1 » 18 Apr 2016, 12:23

fantôme wrote:
@square1: Olivia, Drana & Arlinn all are at their best in creature-heavy decks. Shifting more towards spells makes Jund no less awesome, but I feel like the deck will end up a very different kettle of fish - consider building the spell-heavier version from scratch rather than trying to accommodate the spells into the existing shell? There may very well be many similarities between the two versions, just something to bear in mind (and a trap I've fallen into myself on more than one occasion).


Thanks! Those are excellent points. Maybe a more delirium focused build would work better with lots of spells. More like Modern Jund with a quasi-goyf in Moldgraf Scavenger, quasi-Dark Confidant in Sin Prodder, quasi-lightning bolt with Fiery Temper, etc...
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby Kapol » 18 Apr 2016, 13:10

Phi wrote:CoCo Pups looks more fun to play, and also more consistent in my opinion. I would suggest some removal though, and having 4x Game Trail in the manabase.


I'd been planning on putting removal in the sideboard to help keep a critical mass of creatures for CoCo. But I'm thinking of replacing the Howlpack Resurgence with Moonlight Hunt. Howlpack Resurgence was kind of put in to help enable flipping. But it's a combat trick at heart. And in a creature heavy deck that wants to be aggressive, playing the combat trick on their turn doesn't really work.

As for Game Trail, that'd be the ideal to have. It'll be more of a question if I can get them by then. I'm kind of working the mana-base on the fly right now.

fantôme wrote:@Kapol: CoCo Pups is best deck name ever, also the deck does look like a lot of fun. I'm wondering if there are particular styles of deck that lend themselves better than others to get your puppies transforming? For instance does having a lower mana curve to any significant degree force your opponent to react more, thus running out of spells to cast more quickly?


I don't know if there's a particular style of deck for my werewolves. The issue with lowering the curve is two-fold. There aren't many good options for lowering the curve. Village Messenger is the only one-drop available, and it seems mediocre to me. My other two-drop options are Ember-Eye Wolf, Quilled wolf, Timberpack Wolf, and Scourge Wolf. None of those seem like something my opponent would use removal on anyways. I could always bring in some other creature types. And honestly, that'd likely be the correct option. But I'd rather stick to the theme.

The other issue with messing with the curve at all (making it higher or lower) is collected company itself. I can't really put Solitary Hunter or Wolf of Devil's Breach in due to their cost I don't think. Even playing Arlinn is a bit risky. But the payoff for her is worth it for both her flavor and for her overrun effect in my opinion. And going too low with CoCo makes it worse. Getting a 1-drop and a 2-drop off from it isn't really worth the time generally.

I think the main thing would be to figure out which wolfies to cut and which to make 4-ofs. The fact is that werewolves didn't get a ton of great constructed options. So the choices are limited. As I mentioned, I think I'm going to be putting moonlight hunt in. Likely as a 4-of to act as removal beside Arlinn Kord. But beyond that, I don't know where to focus. The ideal play is turn 2 werewolf, turn 3 Geier Reach Bandit, turn 4 pass, flip, and CoCo in two other werewolves. So Bandit should likely be a 4-of too. But I'm not sure if there's any other one I should focus on.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby fantôme » 18 Apr 2016, 14:12

Good points, and much respect for staying on-flavour. I think even without hitting delirium Scourge Wolf is pretty solid though, turn 2 he's going to be a wonderful nuisance against most decks, and CoCo'ing in a first strike creature seems... well he is only a 2/2, maybe not that great, (I just really want to like that guy).

Instant-speed options seem to me to be where Werewolves will really shine - since you won't always get CoCo, flashing in board presences like Howlpack Resurgence and Pack Guardian (though a 4-drop) are great alternatives. Likewise I'm really interested to see how Hermit affects other players' decisions with regards to their own instants.

If you're wanting to cut a wolf, Silverfur Partisan is maybe better from the sideboard: nothing of yours is triggering him, and not every opponent will have gameplans dependant on targeted removal - even then Partisan will likely be the first to go, and you'll only get the one puppy. I could very well be completely wrong here, I just think that using Partisan aggressively works better in a Zada deck.

21 land with no fixing is risky, I've seen people run 2-colour decks with 12 of each basic and get screwed on a colour more often than their deck deserves. Cinder Glade or Game Trail if you can get them, I'd even run Evolving Wilds.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby Booster » 18 Apr 2016, 15:08

So I am helping a friend get back into magic. I will be taking him to game day at the end of the month, he is going to try and build a deck but I don't think he will have time, and I promised I'd have a standard deck for him if he cant get one together.

Now I have a spare deck he can use, but I want to make sure he has a great time if operation "Get him back into magic" is going to be a success. I am mostly and agro/mid range player, where as he always preferred control. I'd like to but together a control deck for him but have not had really any luck so far, I don't really know how to start.

Does anyone have any budget control deck lists they could suggest? I draft a lot so I have reasonably deep card reserves, so it doesn't have to be SUPER budget, but >$100 would be good.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby square1 » 18 Apr 2016, 15:42

The esper demonic pact deck from CFB today seems like a decent control budget option. Sorin looks like the only $10+ card in the deck.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles ... onic-pact/

Starfield + oath of jace is something I've been wanting to try myself.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby fantôme » 18 Apr 2016, 16:21

I think mono-black control could certainly be a thing - there's bunches of hand attack, targeted removal and mass removal all relatively inexpensive. Erebos's Titan and Inverter of Truth (maybe) make fine finishers.

Speaking of Demonic Pact, I was playing around with reviving ColdHands.dec -
Click to Expand
Tormented Thoughts + Deadbridge Shaman or Asylum Visitor for early hand ruining
Wasteland Strangler + Silkwrap, Warping Wail, Transgress the Mind processing combo
Warping Wail & Silkwrap generally help your 3/1 creatures get through or at least trade up
Demonic Pact + Angelic Purge or Bound by Moonsilver combo
Pact & Transgress for more discard
Pact & Visitor for draw

... with some tinkering I feel like there is enough synergy and crossovers of synergies to make this pretty good.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby Kapol » 18 Apr 2016, 20:38

fantôme wrote:Good points, and much respect for staying on-flavour. I think even without hitting delirium Scourge Wolf is pretty solid though, turn 2 he's going to be a wonderful nuisance against most decks, and CoCo'ing in a first strike creature seems... well he is only a 2/2, maybe not that great, (I just really want to like that guy).

Instant-speed options seem to me to be where Werewolves will really shine - since you won't always get CoCo, flashing in board presences like Howlpack Resurgence and Pack Guardian (though a 4-drop) are great alternatives. Likewise I'm really interested to see how Hermit affects other players' decisions with regards to their own instants.

If you're wanting to cut a wolf, Silverfur Partisan is maybe better from the sideboard: nothing of yours is triggering him, and not every opponent will have gameplans dependant on targeted removal - even then Partisan will likely be the first to go, and you'll only get the one puppy. I could very well be completely wrong here, I just think that using Partisan aggressively works better in a Zada deck.

21 land with no fixing is risky, I've seen people run 2-colour decks with 12 of each basic and get screwed on a colour more often than their deck deserves. Cinder Glade or Game Trail if you can get them, I'd even run Evolving Wilds.


I want to like Scourge Wolf too, but I don't think this is the shell for him. Double red means I'll almost never drop him on curve. Doing some testing with the deck, I had trouble with Breakneck Rider. I don't want to throw enough money into the deck to make it possible either, since I'll play this in one event before the next set comes out.

I agree that instants are going to be important for the deck. But I don't really know where to put any more. I need a large number of creatures for CoCo. I'm sure Arlinn would be a good cut for something with instant-speed, I prefer keeping her in. Right now, I think I'm going to stick with CoCo and replace Howlpack Resurgence with Moonlight Hunt to give me some powerful instants and get some removal in there.

I don't mind the idea of Partisan only getting one puppy if her also eats a removal spell. But honestly, he likely is the first thing on the chopping block. He isn't necessary for the deck. While he helps deter spot removal, with stuff like Declaration around, I don't know if that's enough. Though now that I mention Declaration, maybe it's better to have a varied creature count to make their removal worse? I'm not sure.

How many lands do you think the deck should run? I'm honestly curious because I'm a limited person more than standard. 21 is greedy, even with the curve topping out at 4. But I'm not sure what the correct count is. I'll likely throw in a couple evolving wilds, or maybe the not-Evolving Wilds land from SoI for fixing. Coming into play and able to make mana seems like a boon, and I don't mind taking a turn off if it means flipping my wolves.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby JamesTheNecroMage » 21 Apr 2016, 20:30

Now with SOI and lots of great cards and color combos, I'd like to know what colors will be popular decks to use and draft. I am think the R/G Werewolves deck might be my cup of tea for my local FNM. Any ideas will be welcomed!
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby chetoos » 21 Apr 2016, 20:38

Well, if you're running silverfur partisan, a good finisher may be Descent of the Dragons. Get dragons and wolves, both equal to the number of wolves and werewolves you control
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby fantôme » 24 Apr 2016, 03:19

@Kapol: Personally I'd run 22 or 23 lands with that curve, but certainly I never like to go below 15 sources of each colour with a roughly evenly split two-colour deck. (I probably lean towards the over-cautious end of the spectrum with regards to variance though).

@JamesTheNecroMage: Welcome, Kapol (above) is currently on the R/G werewolf plan, check out the tappedout link on the previous page of this thread. The meta at my LGS and the SoI decks in this thread seem to encompass all sorts of colour combinations and archetypes - I don't know if the new set has yet settled enough for popular decks to emerge.

@chetoos: A dragon eats a puppy then immediately poops another puppy out? Whatever Silverfur Partisan is doing is seriously messing with the dragons' metabolism.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby chetoos » 24 Apr 2016, 04:30

Even better would be 2 partisans, then using brain in a jar to cast a second descent after the first one's targetting triggers all resolve, since they resolve before the spell.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby chetoos » 24 Apr 2016, 12:07

I'm no good at brewing a deck with this, but I had an idea: BW demonic pact sacrifice stuff. Get the good stuff from Demonic Pact, and then sacrifice it to one of the several white effects that care about that, like angelic purge or bound in moonsilver.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby NecroVale » 24 Apr 2016, 16:27

So I mostly play limited, but have been toying with the idea of getting into standard for a while, and the release of Shadows may be be the thing that tips the scales. A lot of ideas I've toyed with feel simple, and some practically feel like they build themselves. Then I read something someone said about playing the cards you are most excited to play. I decided to see which two cards I was most excited to try and play and see if I could work them into a deck.

I did some looking and came back with two cards: Arlinn Kord and Sphinx of the Final Word. Already this feels like it will be tricky because that is three colors off the bat. I've been bouncing ideas back and forth and going Blue/X, splahing for the third color seems the easiest because it feels like all the color pairs are trying to do too many vastly different things to properly synergize in a more even color spread.

Now, to be clear, I am not really planning to play competitively, but may try and take it to an FNM for funsies. I have just been rolling ideas around in my mind for a while and was wanting some outside perspective or insight on things I may be overlooking, overthinking, underthinking or anything else.

So, any ideas? I will be extremely excited if there is a Temur-Control build that is somehow workable.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby Phi » 25 Apr 2016, 04:10

NecroVale wrote:So I mostly play limited, but have been toying with the idea of getting into standard for a while, and the release of Shadows may be be the thing that tips the scales. A lot of ideas I've toyed with feel simple, and some practically feel like they build themselves. Then I read something someone said about playing the cards you are most excited to play. I decided to see which two cards I was most excited to try and play and see if I could work them into a deck.

I did some looking and came back with two cards: Arlinn Kord and Sphinx of the Final Word. Already this feels like it will be tricky because that is three colors off the bat. I've been bouncing ideas back and forth and going Blue/X, splahing for the third color seems the easiest because it feels like all the color pairs are trying to do too many vastly different things to properly synergize in a more even color spread.

Now, to be clear, I am not really planning to play competitively, but may try and take it to an FNM for funsies. I have just been rolling ideas around in my mind for a while and was wanting some outside perspective or insight on things I may be overlooking, overthinking, underthinking or anything else.

So, any ideas? I will be extremely excited if there is a Temur-Control build that is somehow workable.

I think Temur control is totally doable, although the Sphinx is not a very efficient finisher, in my opinion. 7 mana is a lot, even in control. My suggestion is to base it on midrange creatures, Arlinn, red removal, and Seasons Past.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby fantôme » 25 Apr 2016, 08:17

@chetoos: square1 & I floated ideas for Pact/Purge further up the page, check these out for inspiration on good/terrible ideas for builds respectively. Could be a really cool deck, I'm interested to see what direction people start brewing with it.

@NecroVale: I think you've hit the nail on the head, Temur control has some pretty conflicting strategies to gameplan and Arlinn & Sphinx don't have any obvious common synergies, (maybe: Arlinn might be at home as a multi-purpose token maker for Cryptolith Rite ramp, and Sphinx needs mana?). Going U/x with a splash makes sense if the card you're splashing for makes sense - but heck, you don't always need synergies and plans, a deck with whatever cards you want to play works absolutely fine so long as your mana curve is reasonable.

@Phi: Speaking of, I just came across the Dark Petition / Season's past control deck, how can such a cool combo be such a dull deck to play against? I hope it doesn't catch on too much locally...
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby Phi » 26 Apr 2016, 00:40

I went first place in FNM with my new Dragons over Innistrad deck. Feels good.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dragons-over-innistrad/
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby square1 » 26 Apr 2016, 19:36

Wound up going 1-2 at Tuesday night standard tonight with aggro Jund. Won in 3 against GW humans and lost in 3 to UR goggles and in 2 to BW control.

Here's the deck I brought:
Click to Expand
Creature (25)
4x Asylum Visitor
4x Deathmist Raptor
4x Den Protector
3x Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4x Heir of Falkenrath
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4x Olivia, Mobilized for War
1x Sin Prodder

Planeswalker (4)
4x Arlinn Kord

Land (25)
2x Cinder Glade
3x Foreboding Ruins
4x Forest
4x Game Trail
2x Hissing Quagmire
3x Mountain
3x Smoldering Marsh
4x Swamp

Instant (6)
4x Collected Company
2x Kolaghan's Command

Sideboard (15)
3x Chandra, Flamecaller
2x Clip Wings
2x Evolutionary Leap
1x Kolaghan's Command
4x Transgress the Mind
2x Virulent Plague
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet


I found Sin Prodder to be more effective than I expected in the games I played it. Menace is very relevant evasion against the token making planeswalkers like Gideon and Nissa.

The lack of interaction really hurt me against UR. I had no real ability to kill Thing in the Ice outside of Deathmist Raptor. I think I had the advantage in the long game, but an unanswered horror kills you pretty fast.

Against BW, I struggled quite a bit against Ob Nixilis and Languish. I never ran out of cards, but wasn't able to effectively exert pressure against my opponent who could kill everything with spot removal or board wipes and continue accruing advantage with his planeswalkers.

I'm trying to figure out what changes to make before game day this weekend in reaction to this lessons. I found Asylum Visitor fairly ineffective. It was rarely drawing me cards and the small body and lack of evasion made it a poor attacker with no spells to clear a path. Deathmist Raptor was ok, but mostly as a 3/3 deathtouch. pretty much every piece of removal exiled it. Nissa was good but again didn't really pressure the opponent. Everyone seems to have plenty of tools for card advantage, and what I really need are more ways to actually finish someone off.

I'm thinking of switching to a more spell heavy madness/delirium build, with avacyn's judgment, fiery temper, and to the slaughter. Pick the Brain might also be more effective than Transgress, as there are a number of key spells like Secure the Wastes that Transgress misses.

Anyone have any suggestions for pressuring opponents through control?
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby NecroVale » 26 Apr 2016, 21:47

With regards to planeswalkers and legendary creatures and their uniqueness and legendary rules, how do you determine how many to put into your deck? It feels like it can be easy to have to few or to many.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby square1 » 27 Apr 2016, 05:32

NecroVale wrote:With regards to planeswalkers and legendary creatures and their uniqueness and legendary rules, how do you determine how many to put into your deck? It feels like it can be easy to have to few or to many.


It depends a lot on how much your deck relies on the effect the legend or planeswalker is providing, the cost of that spell, and your ability to use duplicates. For example, duplicate Nahiri, the Harbinger can always be discarded to the one you have on the board, duplicate Olivia can be discarded to your current Olivia. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar can simply become an emblem if you're holding more than one, making future Gideons even better. Multiple Kytheon are desirable because if you're an aggressive WW deck, you want to be hitting that one drop 2/1 as much as you can. Also, the odds of any given Kytheon dying to removal are fairly high, so duplicates are likely to be usable through attrition.

So think about the role the unique card is filling, how necessary it is for your deck to work, and how often you'll have an ability to use any extra you draw.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby square1 » 27 Apr 2016, 12:11

Put together a hypno toad list for fun. Bonus value: Gitrog is a horror and doesn't get bounced by Thing in the Ice :P

Click to Expand
Creature (18)
4x Den Protector
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Mindwrack Demon
2x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4x Sylvan Advocate
3x The Gitrog Monster

Sorcery (9)
1x Ever After
2x From Under the Floorboards
2x Languish
2x Seasons Past
2x Traverse the Ulvenwald

Instant (3)
3x To the Slaughter

Planeswalker (1)
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited

Land (25)
4x Drownyard Temple
4x Evolving Wilds
7x Forest
4x Hissing Quagmire
6x Swamp

Enchantment (4)
4x Sinister Concoction


I'm liking delirium as a constructed mechanic more and more. Get a lot of value out of self mill.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby Kapol » 27 Apr 2016, 14:21

fantôme wrote:@Kapol: Personally I'd run 22 or 23 lands with that curve, but certainly I never like to go below 15 sources of each colour with a roughly evenly split two-colour deck. (I probably lean towards the over-cautious end of the spectrum with regards to variance though).


Thanks. I cut an Ulrich's Kindred for a land, and have three Cinder Glades and three Game Trails to help with the mana-fixing. I'm trying to decide if I want to cut the Kindred for three Scourge Wolf. Delirium is possible, but not likely. But between Arlinn and Neck Breaker, I have ways to buff it's attack. And those ways can also give trample anyways. It'd make a decent curve filler, have the slight possibility of getting delirium, and present a first-striking threat. The fixing makes it a lot easier to cast on-curve too.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby JamesTheNecroMage » 29 Apr 2016, 19:44

Phi wrote:I went first place in FNM with my new Dragons over Innistrad deck. Feels good.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dragons-over-innistrad/



That deck looks amazing!!
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby RadioshackRaider » 30 Apr 2016, 08:38

I did it! I finally won Game day. I'm the first of my stores regulars to win Since Born of the Gods. And I did it with mono-red. I managed to beat two Jund Value decks that were exactly the same and a half decent R/U deck. The only downside is I won't get my prizes for a while as they haven't arrived at my LGS.

Also, nothing feels better than beating people who come to a small stores Game Day with expensive decks expecting to shark it. Ugh, feels so good.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby eostby » 30 Apr 2016, 18:32

So I took this deck to Game Day (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/19-03-16 ... bw-allies/), and for a deck I basically tossed together out of stuff I had, I'm very happy for the 4th place finish I got. Got the Anguished Unmaking promo that I really wanted, and I was one of two BW Allies deck in the room, both of whom finished 3-1, which was kinda cool.
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Re: Standard Discussion

Postby fantôme » 01 May 2016, 10:17

6th place at game day with my spirits, made a few last minute changes: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/peppers-ghost/ Really happy with where the deck is at the moment, (the single Day's Undoing was hilarious).

Again we had a fairly diverse range of decks, Standard seems pretty sweet at the moment.

And congratulations to those above for some excellent results! (Evidently the Runners are good at this game).

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