Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Colorless mana is not a color. Any color functions exactly as it has in the past. There is no change. The only change is an aesthetic one unless you have a colorless mana symbol in your cost.
If you were using the phrase 'any color' to describe what kind of mana can be used to pay for generic mana, you were incorrect. (Unless you appended 'or colorless mana' to it as well.)
If you were using the phrase 'any color' to describe what kind of mana can be used to pay for generic mana, you were incorrect. (Unless you appended 'or colorless mana' to it as well.)
Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Whats really frustrating is people calling this "The biggest change in the history of magic" or saying "Wizards has backdoored their way into a sixth colour".
No they didn't. They didn't do any of that, nothing changed. Stop confusing people.
The one criticism of this I fully agree with was not introducing this for BFZ. They could have easily introduced the new symbol in BFZ, and introduced using it in casting cost, and the waste lands in Oath. Split up the change a bit so that people realize how little of a change this actually is.
No they didn't. They didn't do any of that, nothing changed. Stop confusing people.
The one criticism of this I fully agree with was not introducing this for BFZ. They could have easily introduced the new symbol in BFZ, and introduced using it in casting cost, and the waste lands in Oath. Split up the change a bit so that people realize how little of a change this actually is.
Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
If it makes things easier you can start describing mana not in colour but types. As in there are 6 types of mana 5 of which happen to be coloured.
I can imagine this will still confuse people though, I'm trying to think of what would have helped me to understand it better when I started playing.
I can imagine this will still confuse people though, I'm trying to think of what would have helped me to understand it better when I started playing.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
How is this functionally different from a 6th color of mana? That's EXACTLY what this is. I don't mind it so much given they are errataing all previous colorless sources to produce it, but it IS a 6th Color. It requires specific resources to produce this exact type of mana to pay for costs of abilities and/or spells that Can't be paid for with any other type of mana.
Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Solomon-Kain wrote:How is this functionally different from a 6th color of mana? That's EXACTLY what this is.
Colour doesn't refer to just resources used to cast however. This doesn't affect domain, it doesn't affect sunburst, or converge, or any other mechanic that cares about colour. When asked to choose a colour, you cannot choose colourless. And requiring colourless mana isn't something they are going to do all of the time. They will use it when they feel that want/need to, but it wont be in every set.
Colourless has always existed. It continues to exist, and sits in exactly the same position it did before.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Solomon-Kain wrote:How is this functionally different from a 6th color of mana? That's EXACTLY what this is. I don't mind it so much given they are errataing all previous colorless sources to produce it, but it IS a 6th Color. It requires specific resources to produce this exact type of mana to pay for costs of abilities and/or spells that Can't be paid for with any other type of mana.
Well, there's two different changes here, and it's important to keep them separate to avoid talking at cross-purposes...
First, there's changing it so that things that generate colourless mana are now worded as generating {C} instead of generating {1}. This is purely a visual difference on the cards that generate the mana, to stop overloading {1} to mean both colourless mana (in your pool) and generic mana (in costs), which has always been a source of some confusion for new players. It should have no functional difference from how the game has always been, whatsoever.
Second, there's creating new cards with {C} in the costs. This is, as you say, similar to a sixth colour. Not identical, but in broad strokes it matches up. But this is a purely OGW thing. It's essentially taking up a slot as one of the special mechanics of the set. And while this is certainly something new, that's kinda what new sets are for...
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Solomon-Kain wrote:How is this functionally different from a 6th color of mana? That's EXACTLY what this is. I don't mind it so much given they are errataing all previous colorless sources to produce it, but it IS a 6th Color. It requires specific resources to produce this exact type of mana to pay for costs of abilities and/or spells that Can't be paid for with any other type of mana.
By that logic, it's a seventh colour of mana, the sixth being snow mana.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Back in 2013, Maro made an article about "20 Things That Were Going to Kill Magic"... If Magic can survive those changes, it can survive this, especially since it's so minor.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
I am generally indifferent to this change, but I do wonder why is it necessary. We have Devoid, so making the Eldrazi colourless is not an issue. Generic mana can still be paid with colourless sources. They could make Wastes produce generic mana if they wanted to. So why is this needed?
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
MagisterMystax wrote:By that logic, it's a seventh colour of mana, the sixth being snow mana.
I disagree. As far as I'm aware, there are no spells that require snow-mana to actually cast them. There are some that have snow mana in the cost of their abilities, but not in the actual cost of the card. There's also the fact that snow lands still produced colored mana. I believe that snow lands are more or less strictly better than their non-snow counterparts. There's no downside to it. 'Snow' mana was also something determined by supertype. Any card that added mana and have the Snow subtype produced snow mana.
The way I was (and somewhat still am) worried it will be similar to snow mana is screwing up limited. There was a local draft that used an entire box of... I believe it was Ice Age. They didn't see a single snow-covered land in the draft. And you couldn't just add them in, reducing the values of the abilities. But I'm confident WotC planned for this, hence having two Wastes at common, and I'm guessing a good number of colorless mana producers otherwise.
On the subject of ruining Magic, people seem to use that more as hyperbole. This change isn't really huge honestly. I personally think that having a new symbol to differentiate colorless mana is overall fine. I'm not a huge fan of it becoming a required part of the cost. But it shouldn't be a problem if it does end up confined more or less to Oath. I'm just not convinced that'll be the case. Especially since it feels to me like Wizards is pushing to have Eldrazi beyond Zendikar.
Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Kapol wrote:The way I was (and somewhat still am) worried it will be similar to snow mana is screwing up limited. There was a local draft that used an entire box of... I believe it was Ice Age. They didn't see a single snow-covered land in the draft. And you couldn't just add them in, reducing the values of the abilities. But I'm confident WotC planned for this, hence having two Wastes at common, and I'm guessing a good number of colorless mana producers otherwise.
I think the big difference here is there are plenty of other ways to make colourless mana. Scions will still be around, non basic lands that tap for it, etc etc. We also don't know how many cards out side of Kozilek will actually need it.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Phi wrote:They could make Wastes produce generic mana if they wanted to.
Not... really. You don't have something generate generic mana, the same way you don't have something generate hybrid mana, or phyrexian mana. (There exist rules to handle attempting to add hybrid mana to your mana pool, because of cards like Elemental Resonance, but it's not something that comes up often.)
Kapol wrote:There was a local draft that used an entire box of... I believe it was Ice Age. They didn't see a single snow-covered land in the draft.
Well, Ice Age came out before they started designing for limited (IIRC the first set they designed with limited in mind was Mirage). Coldsnap you can draft, and have some expectation of finding snow lands (though I'm led to understand that format was kinda miserable in other ways).
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Booster wrote:I think the big difference here is there are plenty of other ways to make colourless mana. Scions will still be around, non basic lands that tap for it, etc etc. We also don't know how many cards out side of Kozilek will actually need it.
Right, that's why I mentioned that I was worried about it more am worried about. I don't think it'll be much of a problem. And how much of an issue that will be is largely dependent on how much colorless mana matters for casting things. It's just something that I'm sure was difficult to juggle while designing.
As for the fixing you've mentioned, the only things we know in terms of what you mentioned are from the last set. And I've already mentioned my issues with most of them.
phlip wrote:Well, Ice Age came out before they started designing for limited (IIRC the first set they designed with limited in mind was Mirage). Coldsnap you can draft, and have some expectation of finding snow lands (though I'm led to understand that format was kinda miserable in other ways).
That's fair. I've just seen what happens when you don't get the special stuff you need, going back to the snow comparison. I'm sure it's something they designed around quite a bit for this set.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
What happens when Elemental Resonance tries to add Phyrexian mana? Like, Phyrexian Green. Does it just add Green?phlip wrote:Not... really. You don't have something generate generic mana, the same way you don't have something generate hybrid mana, or phyrexian mana. (There exist rules to handle attempting to add hybrid mana to your mana pool, because of cards like Elemental Resonance, but it's not something that comes up often.)Phi wrote:They could make Wastes produce generic mana if they wanted to.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
AdmiralMemo wrote:What happens when Elemental Resonance tries to add Phyrexian mana? Like, Phyrexian Green. Does it just add Green?
Yes. If you put Elemental Resonance on, say, Birthing Pod, then when it triggers, it'll give you CCCG. If you put it on Murderous Redcap, it'll give you your choice of CCBB, CCBR or CCRR (and you can change your choice each time it triggers). Put it on Reaper King (being, I think, the only permanent with monocolour hybrid costs) and you can get WUBRG, ten colourless mana, or any combination in between.
I imagine that set of rules will be extended with this change to clarify that if something tries to add generic mana, you get colourless instead. I guess technically it should have been there already, but since they were represented by the same symbols (despite being different things), no-one noticed before now.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
phlip wrote:Phi wrote:They could make Wastes produce generic mana if they wanted to.
Not... really. You don't have something generate generic mana, the same way you don't have something generate hybrid mana, or phyrexian mana. (There exist rules to handle attempting to add hybrid mana to your mana pool, because of cards like Elemental Resonance, but it's not something that comes up often.)
Yes, bbut if the land would tap for colourless, it would functionally be as if it is tapped for generic (from the point of view of before the change they actually did). Basically a basic land that says "tap: add 1 to your mana pool"-
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Do we know that colorless mana symbols in mana costs will be in every set? If not, it might be a hybrid sort of situation.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
They've stated colourless mana symbols will only very rarely be in costs. It's a special Kozilek thing. In fact, from what they said, it sounded like only Kozilek and his biggest buddies (this set's Void Winnowers and stuff) would have it.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/gobl ... llers.html
I like it. Good body and an interesting ability. Might go in my Pyromancer's Goggles standard deck.
I like it. Good body and an interesting ability. Might go in my Pyromancer's Goggles standard deck.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
It seems like it could be pretty good to me. Using it on a Divination or Touch of the Void seems pretty strong. Though I don't think it'll be enough to be competitive.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Or any of the charms or half the commands, all of which are pretty powerful.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Of course, there's always this spectacular piece of magical christmasland...
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/ ... watch.aspx
Apparently the response WotC has to the leak is giving the official spoiler source art and flavor text.
Dang Kozilek's brood look neat.
Apparently the response WotC has to the leak is giving the official spoiler source art and flavor text.
Dang Kozilek's brood look neat.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
I like highlighting the difference in the destruction of Kozilek in comparison to Ulamog.
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Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers
Yeah, that's probably the most interesting and neat piece of art.
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