Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

A place to talk about standard, casual, limited and everything in between.
SixFootTurkey
Posts: 361
Joined: 18 Nov 2012, 03:54
First Video: PAX Prime '12 panel (recorded)

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby SixFootTurkey » 15 Dec 2015, 03:58

Colorless mana is not a color. Any color functions exactly as it has in the past. There is no change. The only change is an aesthetic one unless you have a colorless mana symbol in your cost.

If you were using the phrase 'any color' to describe what kind of mana can be used to pay for generic mana, you were incorrect. (Unless you appended 'or colorless mana' to it as well.)
User avatar
Booster
Posts: 140
Joined: 21 Apr 2013, 07:37
First Video: Checkpoint- Episode 1

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Booster » 15 Dec 2015, 10:16

Whats really frustrating is people calling this "The biggest change in the history of magic" or saying "Wizards has backdoored their way into a sixth colour".

No they didn't. They didn't do any of that, nothing changed. Stop confusing people.

The one criticism of this I fully agree with was not introducing this for BFZ. They could have easily introduced the new symbol in BFZ, and introduced using it in casting cost, and the waste lands in Oath. Split up the change a bit so that people realize how little of a change this actually is.
User avatar
guidance
Posts: 291
Joined: 08 Dec 2010, 19:06
First Video: Omni-Lingual
Location: Richmond BC

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby guidance » 15 Dec 2015, 11:52

If it makes things easier you can start describing mana not in colour but types. As in there are 6 types of mana 5 of which happen to be coloured.

I can imagine this will still confuse people though, I'm trying to think of what would have helped me to understand it better when I started playing.
"My scythe--I like to keep it next to where my heart used to be"
User avatar
Solomon-Kain
Posts: 28
Joined: 27 Nov 2014, 20:25
First Video: MTGO Academy Draft
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Solomon-Kain » 15 Dec 2015, 12:16

How is this functionally different from a 6th color of mana? That's EXACTLY what this is. I don't mind it so much given they are errataing all previous colorless sources to produce it, but it IS a 6th Color. It requires specific resources to produce this exact type of mana to pay for costs of abilities and/or spells that Can't be paid for with any other type of mana.
User avatar
Booster
Posts: 140
Joined: 21 Apr 2013, 07:37
First Video: Checkpoint- Episode 1

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Booster » 15 Dec 2015, 14:11

Solomon-Kain wrote:How is this functionally different from a 6th color of mana? That's EXACTLY what this is.


Colour doesn't refer to just resources used to cast however. This doesn't affect domain, it doesn't affect sunburst, or converge, or any other mechanic that cares about colour. When asked to choose a colour, you cannot choose colourless. And requiring colourless mana isn't something they are going to do all of the time. They will use it when they feel that want/need to, but it wont be in every set.

Colourless has always existed. It continues to exist, and sits in exactly the same position it did before.
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1790
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby phlip » 15 Dec 2015, 14:35

Solomon-Kain wrote:How is this functionally different from a 6th color of mana? That's EXACTLY what this is. I don't mind it so much given they are errataing all previous colorless sources to produce it, but it IS a 6th Color. It requires specific resources to produce this exact type of mana to pay for costs of abilities and/or spells that Can't be paid for with any other type of mana.

Well, there's two different changes here, and it's important to keep them separate to avoid talking at cross-purposes...

First, there's changing it so that things that generate colourless mana are now worded as generating {C} instead of generating {1}. This is purely a visual difference on the cards that generate the mana, to stop overloading {1} to mean both colourless mana (in your pool) and generic mana (in costs), which has always been a source of some confusion for new players. It should have no functional difference from how the game has always been, whatsoever.

Second, there's creating new cards with {C} in the costs. This is, as you say, similar to a sixth colour. Not identical, but in broad strokes it matches up. But this is a purely OGW thing. It's essentially taking up a slot as one of the special mechanics of the set. And while this is certainly something new, that's kinda what new sets are for...
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
User avatar
MagisterMystax
Posts: 126
Joined: 14 May 2014, 09:03
First Video: The Innistrad hat draft on MTGO academy

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby MagisterMystax » 15 Dec 2015, 14:52

Solomon-Kain wrote:How is this functionally different from a 6th color of mana? That's EXACTLY what this is. I don't mind it so much given they are errataing all previous colorless sources to produce it, but it IS a 6th Color. It requires specific resources to produce this exact type of mana to pay for costs of abilities and/or spells that Can't be paid for with any other type of mana.


By that logic, it's a seventh colour of mana, the sixth being snow mana.
I stream video games every friday at 19:00 GMT, at http://www.twitch.tv/magistermystax
User avatar
AdmiralMemo
Posts: 7358
Joined: 27 Nov 2011, 18:29
First Video: Unskippable: Eternal Sonata
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Contact:

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby AdmiralMemo » 15 Dec 2015, 14:53

Back in 2013, Maro made an article about "20 Things That Were Going to Kill Magic"... If Magic can survive those changes, it can survive this, especially since it's so minor.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

Image
User avatar
Phi
Posts: 248
Joined: 23 Sep 2012, 10:16
First Video: Impersonal Information
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Phi » 15 Dec 2015, 15:28

I am generally indifferent to this change, but I do wonder why is it necessary. We have Devoid, so making the Eldrazi colourless is not an issue. Generic mana can still be paid with colourless sources. They could make Wastes produce generic mana if they wanted to. So why is this needed?
Kapol
Posts: 6120
Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 03:31
First Video: Whisky Tango Foxtrot
Location: The ever-shifting landscape of the mind

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Kapol » 15 Dec 2015, 15:53

MagisterMystax wrote:By that logic, it's a seventh colour of mana, the sixth being snow mana.


I disagree. As far as I'm aware, there are no spells that require snow-mana to actually cast them. There are some that have snow mana in the cost of their abilities, but not in the actual cost of the card. There's also the fact that snow lands still produced colored mana. I believe that snow lands are more or less strictly better than their non-snow counterparts. There's no downside to it. 'Snow' mana was also something determined by supertype. Any card that added mana and have the Snow subtype produced snow mana.

The way I was (and somewhat still am) worried it will be similar to snow mana is screwing up limited. There was a local draft that used an entire box of... I believe it was Ice Age. They didn't see a single snow-covered land in the draft. And you couldn't just add them in, reducing the values of the abilities. But I'm confident WotC planned for this, hence having two Wastes at common, and I'm guessing a good number of colorless mana producers otherwise.


On the subject of ruining Magic, people seem to use that more as hyperbole. This change isn't really huge honestly. I personally think that having a new symbol to differentiate colorless mana is overall fine. I'm not a huge fan of it becoming a required part of the cost. But it shouldn't be a problem if it does end up confined more or less to Oath. I'm just not convinced that'll be the case. Especially since it feels to me like Wizards is pushing to have Eldrazi beyond Zendikar.
User avatar
Booster
Posts: 140
Joined: 21 Apr 2013, 07:37
First Video: Checkpoint- Episode 1

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Booster » 15 Dec 2015, 16:23

Kapol wrote:The way I was (and somewhat still am) worried it will be similar to snow mana is screwing up limited. There was a local draft that used an entire box of... I believe it was Ice Age. They didn't see a single snow-covered land in the draft. And you couldn't just add them in, reducing the values of the abilities. But I'm confident WotC planned for this, hence having two Wastes at common, and I'm guessing a good number of colorless mana producers otherwise.


I think the big difference here is there are plenty of other ways to make colourless mana. Scions will still be around, non basic lands that tap for it, etc etc. We also don't know how many cards out side of Kozilek will actually need it.
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1790
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby phlip » 15 Dec 2015, 17:34

Phi wrote:They could make Wastes produce generic mana if they wanted to.

Not... really. You don't have something generate generic mana, the same way you don't have something generate hybrid mana, or phyrexian mana. (There exist rules to handle attempting to add hybrid mana to your mana pool, because of cards like Elemental Resonance, but it's not something that comes up often.)

Kapol wrote:There was a local draft that used an entire box of... I believe it was Ice Age. They didn't see a single snow-covered land in the draft.

Well, Ice Age came out before they started designing for limited (IIRC the first set they designed with limited in mind was Mirage). Coldsnap you can draft, and have some expectation of finding snow lands (though I'm led to understand that format was kinda miserable in other ways).
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
Kapol
Posts: 6120
Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 03:31
First Video: Whisky Tango Foxtrot
Location: The ever-shifting landscape of the mind

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Kapol » 15 Dec 2015, 18:23

Booster wrote:I think the big difference here is there are plenty of other ways to make colourless mana. Scions will still be around, non basic lands that tap for it, etc etc. We also don't know how many cards out side of Kozilek will actually need it.


Right, that's why I mentioned that I was worried about it more am worried about. I don't think it'll be much of a problem. And how much of an issue that will be is largely dependent on how much colorless mana matters for casting things. It's just something that I'm sure was difficult to juggle while designing.

As for the fixing you've mentioned, the only things we know in terms of what you mentioned are from the last set. And I've already mentioned my issues with most of them.

phlip wrote:Well, Ice Age came out before they started designing for limited (IIRC the first set they designed with limited in mind was Mirage). Coldsnap you can draft, and have some expectation of finding snow lands (though I'm led to understand that format was kinda miserable in other ways).


That's fair. I've just seen what happens when you don't get the special stuff you need, going back to the snow comparison. I'm sure it's something they designed around quite a bit for this set.
User avatar
AdmiralMemo
Posts: 7358
Joined: 27 Nov 2011, 18:29
First Video: Unskippable: Eternal Sonata
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Contact:

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby AdmiralMemo » 15 Dec 2015, 18:54

phlip wrote:
Phi wrote:They could make Wastes produce generic mana if they wanted to.
Not... really. You don't have something generate generic mana, the same way you don't have something generate hybrid mana, or phyrexian mana. (There exist rules to handle attempting to add hybrid mana to your mana pool, because of cards like Elemental Resonance, but it's not something that comes up often.)
What happens when Elemental Resonance tries to add Phyrexian mana? Like, Phyrexian Green. Does it just add Green?
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

Image
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1790
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby phlip » 15 Dec 2015, 21:00

AdmiralMemo wrote:What happens when Elemental Resonance tries to add Phyrexian mana? Like, Phyrexian Green. Does it just add Green?

Yes. If you put Elemental Resonance on, say, Birthing Pod, then when it triggers, it'll give you CCCG. If you put it on Murderous Redcap, it'll give you your choice of CCBB, CCBR or CCRR (and you can change your choice each time it triggers). Put it on Reaper King (being, I think, the only permanent with monocolour hybrid costs) and you can get WUBRG, ten colourless mana, or any combination in between.

I imagine that set of rules will be extended with this change to clarify that if something tries to add generic mana, you get colourless instead. I guess technically it should have been there already, but since they were represented by the same symbols (despite being different things), no-one noticed before now.
While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
User avatar
Phi
Posts: 248
Joined: 23 Sep 2012, 10:16
First Video: Impersonal Information
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Phi » 15 Dec 2015, 22:13

phlip wrote:
Phi wrote:They could make Wastes produce generic mana if they wanted to.

Not... really. You don't have something generate generic mana, the same way you don't have something generate hybrid mana, or phyrexian mana. (There exist rules to handle attempting to add hybrid mana to your mana pool, because of cards like Elemental Resonance, but it's not something that comes up often.)

Yes, bbut if the land would tap for colourless, it would functionally be as if it is tapped for generic (from the point of view of before the change they actually did). Basically a basic land that says "tap: add 1 to your mana pool"-
User avatar
Ladsworld
Posts: 95
Joined: 03 Apr 2015, 16:25
First Video: Friday Nights
Location: Lower... Lower... HIGHER! Blvd.

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Ladsworld » 16 Dec 2015, 14:07

Do we know that colorless mana symbols in mana costs will be in every set? If not, it might be a hybrid sort of situation.
Image
Chat Name: DrChillbrain
User avatar
MagisterMystax
Posts: 126
Joined: 14 May 2014, 09:03
First Video: The Innistrad hat draft on MTGO academy

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby MagisterMystax » 16 Dec 2015, 14:50

They've stated colourless mana symbols will only very rarely be in costs. It's a special Kozilek thing. In fact, from what they said, it sounded like only Kozilek and his biggest buddies (this set's Void Winnowers and stuff) would have it.
I stream video games every friday at 19:00 GMT, at http://www.twitch.tv/magistermystax
User avatar
Ladsworld
Posts: 95
Joined: 03 Apr 2015, 16:25
First Video: Friday Nights
Location: Lower... Lower... HIGHER! Blvd.

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Ladsworld » 20 Dec 2015, 14:57

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/gobl ... llers.html
I like it. Good body and an interesting ability. Might go in my Pyromancer's Goggles standard deck.
Image
Chat Name: DrChillbrain
Kapol
Posts: 6120
Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 03:31
First Video: Whisky Tango Foxtrot
Location: The ever-shifting landscape of the mind

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Kapol » 21 Dec 2015, 00:05

It seems like it could be pretty good to me. Using it on a Divination or Touch of the Void seems pretty strong. Though I don't think it'll be enough to be competitive.
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby korvys » 21 Dec 2015, 03:48

Or any of the charms or half the commands, all of which are pretty powerful.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
phlip
Posts: 1790
Joined: 24 Apr 2010, 17:48
First Video: Eternal Sonata (Unskippable)
Location: Australia

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby phlip » 21 Dec 2015, 05:26

While no one overhear you quickly tell me not cow cow.
but how about watch phone?

[he/him/his]
User avatar
Lycodrake
Posts: 119
Joined: 16 Aug 2015, 05:48
First Video: Friday Nights
Location: TN, USA

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Lycodrake » 21 Dec 2015, 15:29

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/ ... watch.aspx
Apparently the response WotC has to the leak is giving the official spoiler source art and flavor text.
Dang Kozilek's brood look neat.
Image
User avatar
AdmiralMemo
Posts: 7358
Joined: 27 Nov 2011, 18:29
First Video: Unskippable: Eternal Sonata
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Contact:

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby AdmiralMemo » 21 Dec 2015, 16:41

I like highlighting the difference in the destruction of Kozilek in comparison to Ulamog.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

Image
User avatar
Lycodrake
Posts: 119
Joined: 16 Aug 2015, 05:48
First Video: Friday Nights
Location: TN, USA

Re: Oath of the Goatwatch Spoilers

Postby Lycodrake » 21 Dec 2015, 16:45

Yeah, that's probably the most interesting and neat piece of art.
Image

Return to “Magic: The Gathering”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests