MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Talk about the latest LRR draft videos or Friday Nights.
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MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Graham » 13 Feb 2013, 19:11

Here's the catch-all thread for our MTGO Academy drafts!
(In case you wanna talk about them).

The latest one is "Count It"
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Physiocracy » 13 Feb 2013, 19:37

You probably answer this is some videos/have answered this question before, but what's the program you use for the sealed videos?
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Graham » 14 Feb 2013, 00:15

It's the same one, Magic Online.

Usually we use the wide beta of the new client, but for the most recent one we had to use the older (current) client.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Utilitarian » 16 Feb 2013, 20:30

Well I'm happy the maximum greed draft got in at least one solid win. I was suprised you didn't run the Shanktails. 3/1 first strike seems so greedy. "Just think how good it will be if they don't have any low damage removal!"
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Eric the Orange » 17 Feb 2013, 11:14

I have a general MGTO draft question. How much does a ticket cost and how much tickets can you get from an average swiss draft winnings?

The reason i ask is i was thinking of getting into MGTO just for drafting and then trading back my winnings for more tickets to draft again.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Drecon » 17 Feb 2013, 12:00

A ticket is 1 dollar.
From a draft you usually only win boosters, never tickets. In Swiss you win 1 booster for every round you win.

You can of course sell your boosters. Most usually go for around 3 tickets I believe.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Eric the Orange » 17 Feb 2013, 13:07

Drecon wrote:A ticket is 1 dollar.
From a draft you usually only win boosters, never tickets. In Swiss you win 1 booster for every round you win.


I know but I was wondering the general conversion is I were to trade all my cards gained from the draft, how many tickets would I expect to get back.

And also how many tickets does it cost to get into a draft.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Drecon » 17 Feb 2013, 13:17

I typically costs 3 boosters and two tickets to get into a draft. Selling the drafted cards often leads to a net loss but one can get lucky.
Commons don´t sell for anything and most uncommons aren´t worth anything either. That leaves just the rares and mythics, and you have to get pretty lucky with those.

Best way to get a net profit is just to get really good and win all the 8-4 drafts. However, I'm not giving you good odds on that one.

Basically, I don't think you could ever really do this and expect not to just invest a lot in the long run.
My own way of looking at it is that one draft is about on par with a fun night with friends. I don't expect to ever gain any money from it.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Utilitarian » 17 Feb 2013, 13:23

Eric the Orange wrote:I know but I was wondering the general conversion is I were to trade all my cards gained from the draft, how many tickets would I expect to get back.

And also how many tickets does it cost to get into a draft.

Trading in from the cards you get out of a draft is a little odd in MTGO.

On the one hand, cards are worth far less in many cases in MTGO than they are in paper. For instance shock lands are, last time i checked going 5 tix or so compared to the 10+ you expect to pay for them in paper. On the other hand, by selling to bots, you can often move larger quantities of less valuable cards that will add up over time.

The gripping hand is that you'd need to come out with an average of 2-3 packs winnings per draft, in order to make up the extra pack and entry fee tickets in sales on average (though not every time). Which basicaly means needing to be able to go at least 2/1 consistantly

Getting into a draft costs 3 packs and 2 tix. You can technically just enter with straight tickets but in practice it is almost always cheaper to buy the packs from a pack selling bot (especially if you use the same one so you can save the change as credit) and only actually spend the 2 tix for the entry fee directly.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Eric the Orange » 17 Feb 2013, 14:18

So what I'm getting from this is I'd end up probably paying about 1 packs worth of money each time i draft assuming the packs i win are the same kind as the next draft. And I can sell the odd rare or pack to make up the 2 tickets.

Seems like a legit investment, way less than I paid back in the day (I'd estimate about 2000$ for my 4000-5000 cards)
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Yaxley » 17 Feb 2013, 15:58

Eric, you should check out this episode of Limited Resources. The discuss how to maximize your value out of MtGO drafts. It sounds like what you are looking for.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Drecon » 18 Feb 2013, 06:51

Yaxley wrote:Eric, you should check out this episode of Limited Resources. The discuss how to maximize your value out of MtGO drafts. It sounds like what you are looking for.


Wow, thanks for that link. Really insightful.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Lord Hosk » 19 Feb 2013, 15:43

First the LR folks math is so muddled. However the real problem is that they never address is that there is a differences in play style, and "win %"

They are basing all their comparisons on the assumption that your win % will remain consistent in a 8/4 vrs a swiss or a 4/3/2/2 which isnt true. Economically they are correct that the 4/3/2/2/ is worse for the players as a whole and better for wizards, that doesnt translate to the individual player or match. If you win 50% of your games in swiss that doesnt mean you will win 50% of your games in a 8/4.

If you are good enough to win your first two matches in a 4/3/2/2 consistently you can milk the casual players, there are less casual players in the 8/4. Playing 4/3/2/2s will allow you to play longer as a midrange player than playing all 8/4s will.

If you win your first game in a 4... you get minimum 2 packs, if you win your first game in a 8... you have a 50% chance of getting nothing.


As for value of the cards you draft, in my experience over 10 drafts you will likely get 20-25 tickets worth of cards.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby tamaness » 19 Feb 2013, 22:25

Honestly, I look at MTGO drafting as "about the price of an IMAX movie and concessions," except it's better entertainment value, and I can get some money back out of it sometimes.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Trisha Lynn » 20 Feb 2013, 20:09

Speaking as someone who's never played Magic before in any incarnation, I really enjoy the Academy drafts, mostly for their sheer entertainment value. My favorite draft so far was the second storytime one, followed by the Best Hats draft.

However, I recently moved to Minneapolis and found myself across the street from a gaming store. I had time to kill, so I went in and found it nicely stocked with several board and card games, including Magic (of course). After introducing myself as being new in the neighborhood, I asked if someone could teach me how to play Magic, and the lone female employee agreed, using the pre-built mini-decks.

She was playing green and I chose white, and as we were going through the different phases and whatnot, she noted that for someone who hadn't played Magic before, I was doing fairly well and playing very strategically, even if I eventually lost. I told her that it was mostly thanks to your drafts (it's true!) but that I also played a Magic-like card game on Kongregate.com.

But honestly, it probably is your drafts that will end up informing my play style, if I ever decide to go back to that store for game day because I don't think I want to become too serious about building "killer decks" or buying the best cards or whatnot.


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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Graham » 20 Feb 2013, 20:30

That's so great to hear!

And... sorry?
:P
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Lord Hosk » 20 Feb 2013, 20:39

Trisha Lynn wrote:Speaking as someone who's never played Magic before ...

Trisha Lynn
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In three months when you are ordering just those last couple hundred dollars of cards to complete your commander deck from CardKingdom.com because your LGS doesnt have them, and are ready to check out and go back for a few boosters and some new sleeves, make sure you tell them Loading Ready Run sent you.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Dominic Appleguard » 21 Feb 2013, 09:47

I don't think I have a LGS.
Nearest shop I know of is in White Plains and it's a wretched hive.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Lord Hosk » 21 Feb 2013, 10:29

are you still near Chicago? 'cause there is a huge if not real great shop in Niles, and a great shop with two locations in Schaumberg and Elgin called the gaming goat.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Dominic Appleguard » 21 Feb 2013, 10:50

I live in NY now. I considered updating my location but if I do it now I have to enter my First Video and I kinda like having a "legacy" account. LoadingReadyHipsters assemble.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby phlip » 21 Feb 2013, 18:45

Lord Hosk wrote:First the LR folks math is so muddled. However the real problem is that they never address is that there is a differences in play style, and "win %"

They talked for a bit later (over Twitter and also in the next episode IIRC) that they intentionally glossed over that point to a degree... it's a thing they intentionally do on topics like that, and also in things like the set review show, that they try to focus all their attention on the 99% case, and spend little to no time on the rare exceptions. Particularly in the set review shows, it'll often come up that a card is flat unplayable in 99% of games, but very very occasionally there might be a situation where it's quite good. If they just say it's unplayable, give their reasoning, and move on, then most listeners will get the point and avoid the card... but if they say it's mostly unplayable, and start going deep on the exceptions where it might be relevant, the listener's impression is more "it's a situational card, but one worth considering", even if it really isn't. And especially if they spend more time talking about the exceptions than the rule, then people will have that in mind more.

The same thing applies here. Yes, it's possible, or even likely, that your game win percentage in 4-3-2-2s is higher than in 8-4s, based on the fact that your opponents in 8-4s are likely to be better players. So there is potentially very small window in with 4-3-2-2s are your best EV. But that window is very small. Your win percentage difference between 4-3-2-2s and either 8-4s or Swiss need to be wildly different (IIRC by as much as 10 percentage points, which is insane). And maybe there are some people out there who are in that window, but it is in no way even a significant minority. For everyone else, at least one of 8-4s or Swiss, and possibly both, is a better EV than 4-3-2-2. But they knew that if they mentioned this window on the show, then listeners desperate to rationalise themselves playing 4-3-2-2s (because it seems like a better payout intuitively if you are bad at maths and don't analyse it properly) would be likely to latch on to that and say "Oh, well I'm obviously in that window" and not think about it further.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Trisha Lynn » 21 Feb 2013, 19:12

*eyes cross*

Goodness gracious! Does one really have to be able to understand what Lord Hosk & phlip were just talking about in order to have fun playing Magic?

This seems more complicated than Texas Hold' Em, and even I can play that fairly well.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby phlip » 21 Feb 2013, 19:46

To have fun? No, you don't need to follow it at all.

None of it matters if you're playing to have fun, just matters to maximising your prizes (or if you consider the prizes as offsetting the cost of playing the game, then it matters to minimising your costs). And even then it only matters to Magic Online... if you're playing the game with physical cards, with friends, or at your Local Game Store, then it's completely irrelevant.

It's talking specifically about the different prize payout structures that exist on Magic Online, and which one is the best one to choose for different players.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Utilitarian » 21 Feb 2013, 20:26

Aye if you're just playing with the sole purpose of having fun and are unconcerned about prizes, in MTGO you play swiss since it's not a single elimination format. It's why the LRR guys do swiss for their livestreams and recorded drafts. I'm pretty sure both James and Graham play 8/4's on their own time though.
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Re: MTGO Academy Drafts - All

Postby Lord Hosk » 21 Feb 2013, 21:21

phlip wrote:
Lord Hosk wrote:First the LR folks math is so muddled. However the real problem is that they never address is that there is a differences in play style, and "win %"

They talked for a bit later (over Twitter and also in the next episode IIRC) that they intentionally glossed over that point to a degree... it's a thing they intentionally do on topics like that, and also in things like the set review show, that they try to focus all their attention on the 99% case, and spend little to no time on the rare exceptions. Particularly in the set review shows, it'll often come up that a card is flat unplayable in 99% of games, but very very occasionally there might be a situation where it's quite good. If they just say it's unplayable, give their reasoning, and move on, then most listeners will get the point and avoid the card... but if they say it's mostly unplayable, and start going deep on the exceptions where it might be relevant, the listener's impression is more "it's a situational card, but one worth considering", even if it really isn't. And especially if they spend more time talking about the exceptions than the rule, then people will have that in mind more.


The same thing applies here. Yes, it's possible, or even likely, that your game win percentage in 4-3-2-2s is higher than in 8-4s, based on the fact that your opponents in 8-4s are likely to be better players. So there is potentially very small window in with 4-3-2-2s are your best EV. But that window is very small. Your win percentage difference between 4-3-2-2s and either 8-4s or Swiss need to be wildly different (IIRC by as much as 10 percentage points, which is insane). And maybe there are some people out there who are in that window, but it is in no way even a significant minority. For everyone else, at least one of 8-4s or Swiss, and possibly both, is a better EV than 4-3-2-2. But they knew that if they mentioned this window on the show, then listeners desperate to rationalise themselves playing 4-3-2-2s (because it seems like a better payout intuitively if you are bad at maths and don't analyse it properly) would be likely to latch on to that and say "Oh, well I'm obviously in that window" and not think about it further.


I agree with the set review but I disagree entirely with the margin being very narrow.

Their math is flawed and the basic economics they based it on is flawed. It is true that wizards pays 12 packs for 8-4 or swiss, and 11 packs for 4-3-2-2, so for ALL players the pay out is less. However that doesnt apply to individual players you cant win all the packs so you arent throwing away 1 pack per draft as they assert, the draft has a worse pay out for the community, but players have a much better chance of winning packs 200%.

If you play a 8-4 if you win 3 games you get 8 packs, if you win 2 games you get 4 packs, 6 people get 0 you have a 25% chance of any packs.

if you play a 4-3-2-2, you have a 50% chance of getting 2 packs.

The chances of going infinite in 4-3-2-2 is much narrower but if you want to play more magic on less money you will bleed out slower by playing 4-3-2-2s and, as they repeatedly point out, you will bleed out unless you are a top tear player, which you arent. As they express in the podcast, "we know all those players" Marshal keeps hinting at something on the other side of the coin. "in poker players dont want other players to know how much they lose or they will quit playing"

I love Kenji, Marshal, John and others, but they and other "top players" going infinite depends on people dumping packs to them in 8-4's You might get lucky and win a 8-4 once in awhile but chances are at a minimum you are going to put in 4 drafts for each win.

Now these will vary a lot from player to player but lets assume you are in the in the top 40%-50% of players online. which is assuming you are good but will never make a run at the pro tour, you have some experience under your belt and you are one of the better players at your LGS. and lets assume that over 10 drafts your cards cover the buy in so we are just talking packs.

you play 10 games you will one, take second twice, and take 3/4th five times and scrub out twice cause you just dont get any cards or you play that amazing 4 pack rat draft first game.

in 8-4 you win 16 packs paying in 30 packs you are down 14 packs.

in 4-3-2-2 you win 20 packs with the same 30 pack investment and are down 10.

in 8-4s from a 30 pack investment you will likely get 16-17 drafts, in 4-3-2-2 you will get about 20 drafts.

Now in the 1 8-4 I played I actually won, but that doesn't mean I am likely to do so again, I opened insane cards my rares paid for the next draft by themselves, that isnt likely to happen again even with my weird Magic magic. if you discount bump in the nights my paper magic has put me slightly ahead like up $10 a little from winning but mostly from bomb cards like pulling a Gisela and a foil bonfire from a pack my wife got me as a gag gift.

Kenji Egashira AKA numotthenummy who is one of the most prolific and winning MTGO players plays around 500 drafts and events, and even he with all his wins still puts in about $50-$100 per year albeit for A LOT of magic.
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