Bump in the Night

Talk about the latest LRR video or discuss your past favorites.
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Postby Unclever title » 09 Oct 2007, 04:27

Woot, 42nd Post!

*Ahem*

I'm pretty sure the whole idea was on whether or not it's legal/moral to kill a burglar who's breaking into your home. It's absolutely true that there are varying degrees of criminals in the world, many have lines they do not cross, or at least try not to cross. But the situation is this, are you willing to take that risk? Are you willing to give this person, whom you've likely never met, and the only example of their moral standards you have is that they broke into your house, the benefit of the doubt? That sounds pretty foolish.

There's also the practicality of the issue, often times the threat of death is enough, so likely there would be no need to kill the person considering people often do what you want them to do under the threat of death.

If they are carrying a gun or other weapon, then there is also the matter of protecting yourself. They might only be carrying it to protect themselves but those who commit crimes are often more paranoid and suspicious than those who don't so they will be more likely to use it than a law abiding citizen (there are exceptions I know).

Oh and on the issue of killing someone to prevent a lawsuit... That basically puts you on the same level as a burglar killing someone to prevent there from being witnesses. There is a difference but it's not that much.

Finally to end my 42nd post epic, I will say that there are few things that would push me to killing, protecting the lives of family and friends is one of them, I would rather be sued by someone I beat the crap out of than have killed him, providing that was the end of the consequences for letting him live. Except unless he was a duck, then I'd kill him easy! And sleep well, providing he wasn't a super powerful duck like in the video, that was some amazing duck that went down, and killed a cop.
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Postby Ishamel » 09 Oct 2007, 06:24

In England at least ordinary burgling types rarely go armed with much more than a flicknife or crowbar because they know that if they use force, and are caught, their sentece can quadruple very quickly. If I found a strange person snooping around my house, which included my children and husband, I'd probably flee the location of the snooper, run towards said family members and call the police. Seeking confrontation is never good imho, even with good reason. If i was followed by this person then yes a confrntation would be inevitable, but I prefer to let the police forces try and deal with these situations rather than sink to the level of criminals by using violence straight off the bat.
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Postby Alja-Markir » 09 Oct 2007, 09:11

That's it exactly, if you hear a noise at night and think you might have a burgler in your house, you don't go and check. You call the police and keep quiet.

If you take a gun out and start looking for the burglar, you are asking for trouble. No one in their right mind who is robbing a house will purposefully go near any people who might be awake. You might decide to turn a light on in your room, but keep the door closed. That way they think, "Shit, someone is awake, I could get caught, I'm gonna get outta here before someone finds me." They overwhelmingly only react with violence if they feel they've been identified.

~Alja~
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Postby Yukikaze » 09 Oct 2007, 11:51

So now we're concerned about the burgler's well-being?

As Cake pointed out, here in Colorado, the state gives us a right to privacy and safety within our own homes. If someone breaks into my home, I don't know if he's going to stop at taking my VCR or my life, so I'm not going to take the chance. I'm going to make sure the police find him, on the floor of my house. Whether he's alive or dead at the time doesn't much matter to me, but I'm willing to revoke his living permit in interest of my own safety. I'd be a nervous wreck afterwards, but at least I'd be a live, nervous wreck, instead of a corpse in a body bag.

If you think a criminal who's only carrying a knife doesn't deserve to encounter a homeowner carrying a 9mm, then you're actually rewarding that person for breaking into your house. Last I seem to recall, rewarding people prompted repeat behavior. Punishing them deters repeat behavior.

Code: Select all

A man is walking down an alley with his wife and children.  Suddenly, another man sees them, and starts charging them with a knife, screaming.

The Liberal:  "What am I doing in a dark alley at night?  What am I doing with my wife and children in a dark alley at night?  Why is this man screaming?  Have I done something to hurt him?  Would he go away if I just give him my wallet?  Perhaps he was beaten as a child.  What actions have brought him to this point?  What--" and the second man kills him.

The Conservative: pulls out a gun, *Blam!* and the second man drops dead.

The Redneck conservative: pulls out a gun, *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *click* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!* *Blam!*

Redneck conservative's daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy."
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Postby Cake » 09 Oct 2007, 11:58

ROFLMAO!
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Postby Unclever title » 09 Oct 2007, 13:13

Note: I'd just like to say that I don't condone active confrontation unless it is necessary. In other words if you are threatened, then defend yourself IF NECESSARY.

That being said, the whole point of necessary is the real gray area. I'd also like to point out that leaving the issue in the hands of the police is a very wise decision, I mean that's the reason they exist! However there are extreme cases where the police cannot offer protection in time. Such a time can be necessary.

The police on the other hand are the ones who should be active about it, some people on the forums aspire to be police officers. So good for you.

Here, have this thing: 8)

Be an amateur filmmaker, etc. if you so choose, don't be an amateur in justice...Then again I just thought of bounty hunters as I wrote that...So get a license, I guess...

Nice on the Liberal/Conservative joke.
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Postby Alja-Markir » 09 Oct 2007, 16:13

Yukikaze wrote:If someone breaks into my home, I don't know if he's going to stop at taking my VCR or my life, so I'm not going to take the chance.


Yes, you do know if they're going to take your life. Not only is it common sense, it's also statistical data. If someone is robbing you, they want your goods, not your life. The only time a robber becomes a murderer is when they are caught and panic. They try to remove witnesses. If you do not witness it, you are safe.

Realistically, the only people who are going to enter your house and then want to kill you are people who want you dead for a specific reason from the get-go. Think about how rare something like that is, and also think about how little help a gun will be against someone who is premedatating how to kill you.

I'd be a nervous wreck afterwards, but at least I'd be a live, nervous wreck, instead of a corpse in a body bag.


You could buy a home security system instead of a gun. Not only it is a much more visible deterent (stickers saying "This home protected by Acme Security" and whatnot), but the moment that alarm goes off the thief gets the heck out of there. You don't even have to call the cops, they'll come themselves.

As for your terribly stupid "joke", 1) you're labeling people and flinging generalizations, 2) it's an unrealistic portrayal of a crisis scenario, and 3) it's a distractionary tactic. Please refrain from avoiding actual discussion by trying to mock and generalize those who disagree with your views.

~Alja~
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Postby Yukikaze » 09 Oct 2007, 17:00

well I thought the joke was funny and topical, so I decided to include it.

Cake and Unclever apparently agreed.

As far as the home security system goes, that's how you figure out someone's intruding in the first place. That's not how you protect your home. You protect your home with a good, reliable, legal(that means if you need a license to own it, then get a license!) handgun which you then teach everyone in the family who is old enough to understand(about 5 years. Kids are smarter than they seem.) exactly where it is, exactly how it should be used, exactly how it shouldn't be used, and that it should be kept secret from anyone not in the family.

Oh, and keep it loaded. One or two bullets will be enough, but a gun with an empty clip is effectively a $500 club, when it comes to self-defense.
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Postby Cake » 09 Oct 2007, 17:49

When I have kids, the guns will be in a locked gun safe. I remember what I was like when I was a child. All except for one. Which me and my wife will know where it is. If you rent a place, you cannot install a security system without the owner's permission.

As for keeping a gun loaded in the house, I keep two shells next to the shotgun. I don't want it to fall over sometime and accidentally discharge.
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Postby Sable » 09 Oct 2007, 21:11

My guns are all kept in locked gun cases in the back of my closet - as much as my vicious ol' granddad was a fan of the sawed-off 12-gauge home defense method ("Everything in front of you dies, so make sure everything you like is behind you"), I'm not in the handguns-as-home-defense camp. Not saying it's wrong or anything; it might be 'cos I don't like them and everything I own is a long gun, which really isn't much more than a club at indoor ranges.

What I do have is a jobby called "The Torch," which at the touch of a button sends 4400 lumens out the business end of a modified Mag Lite. Even to daylight-adapted eyes, that's blinding - a stock 3D Mag is on the order of 60 or so ANSI lumens. Like any kind of plan, there's contingencies, but as an opening shot I like to think it's edging pretty far into "I win." The wonderful thing about The Torch is that it isn't a spot beam - the little 2" reflector can't even hope to direct the fairly massive filament in the bulb, so at anything within a hundred feet, you're turning night into day.

Would it deter everyone? Surely not, but really, nothing will. Until I have a real reason to think otherwise (As I'm very open to change when it's required), it's what I'm personally sticking with.
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Postby Lavos » 09 Oct 2007, 21:46

Hey graham, move these posts to the gun topic?
i dont know what's happening anymore
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Postby Alja-Markir » 09 Oct 2007, 22:37

Well, the video is one based on a burglary and how the resident being burgled responds...

~Alja~
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Postby Ishamel » 10 Oct 2007, 00:05

Thanks Alja fo also being a sensible person...
I enjoyed the liberal/redneck joke as much as Cake or Unclever but the reason jokes are jokes is that they are [i]overstatements[/i]. And actually most muggings happen (in England) to young men on well-lit streets :P
Sensible idea for Cake to lock guns away from the children, but multiple guns? Multiple opportunities for accidents to happen.
I'm not anti-guns really; I understand all the arguments for and against but one simple point is that although banning guns doesn't reduce gun [i]crime[/i], it does reduce [i]death [/i]from guns. Of innocent or supposedly guilty people. To me that's enough to avoid guns. Death of innocent people generally being a bad thing.
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Postby Alja-Markir » 10 Oct 2007, 09:15

It's interesting to note that in Japan, where gun ownership is greatly regulated, many violent crimes are now committed with blades.

Personally, I think guns are not evil in themselves, I just think the reasons why people buy guns are really bad most of the time. It's largely regional. I've read reports that Canada has significantly more guns per capita than America, because a larger percentage of people go sport shooting and hunting, but that Canada has far less violent crimes committed with guns. I don't recall the details, and my source may be outdated or erroneous, but it seems reasonable that Canadians just are smarter about their weaponry.

Similarly, I've read that significantly more Canadians leave their houses unlocked than Americans. Again, I don't know how accurate that is, but it seems reasonable. America has been very paranoid for the past half decade, and it seems to be getting worse.

Out of curiosity, how prevalent are gated communities in Canada? You know, places where you can't enter unless you are a resident or have permission from a resident. Usually have a fat old man at a guardhouse with a lever to open and close the gate.

~Alja~
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Postby Unclever title » 10 Oct 2007, 10:29

Part of this just has to do with the density of people, and no I don't mean that as an insult.

The U.S. and Canada are roughly the same size, however the U.S. has a much higher population nearly ten times as many people in roughly the same area.

As you get more people living closer together, crime in general will increase as such so will the misuse of firearms.

With less crime there is less of a reason for one to lock their door, so they may forget, heck I live in the states myself and I forget sometimes, but I'm usually not the only one home most of the time.

Us United Statesians are getting more paranoid because we have a reason to, albeit I don't think the reason is enough for the level of general paranoia, that's the media for you, but there's a reason nonetheless.

And on the note of Japan, you'd be surprised how many things can become lethal weapons in a pinch, if you had the space and skill to wield it a shovel can become an efficient, though dirty, weapon. Obviously blades aren't that surprising, but the point is people find a loophole when one method is lost.
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Postby Cake » 10 Oct 2007, 10:46

The number of people I trust can be counted on one hand. Yes, I'm paranoid as hell.
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Postby Ishamel » 10 Oct 2007, 11:23

No-one should leave your door unlocked in canada... a bear could go in there!
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Postby Lord Chrusher » 10 Oct 2007, 11:45

A bear in your kitchen is a valid use of a gun.
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Postby Graham » 10 Oct 2007, 11:47

Lord Chrusher wrote:A bear in your kitchen is a valid use of a gun.

Something I think we can all agree on, and stop talking about it.
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Postby Yukikaze » 10 Oct 2007, 12:16

Sable, out of curiousity, is your 4KL light homebrew, or did you find it at some obscure store?

If the former, how did you make it?

If the latter, where did you find it?
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Postby Sable » 10 Oct 2007, 13:14

The light is "The Torch," and it's a custom light.

It was built by a feller called Chris MacLellan over Boston way. It is absolutely not a production item, but Mac makes 'em every now and then.

The host body was a red 4D Mag Lite, which has been cut down on both ends to 2D size. The switch has been relocated to the tailcap, where it holds a 10-amp-rated "reverse" clicky switch, meaning you push it in, it clicks, then you release and the light comes on.

The original switch has been removed, and the top of the light re-threaded. The business end holds a custom ceramic bi-pin bulb holder, which forms the positive contact in the electrical path. The bulb is an OSRAM 64623 transverse-filament high-temperature tungsten incandescent, which was originally used for projectors. It uses a battery pack made of 2/3A-sized NiCad cells, with a nominal voltage of 14.4v. Hot off the charger, the pack is about 18v, which is normal.

Since the heat from the bulb would instantly melt a Mag's stock plastic reflector, this also has a solid aluminum reflector with a slightly stippled surface. The stock plastic lens has been replaced by what's called "UCL," which is a 99% transmissive multicoated optical glass.

This light is so bright that you cannot look into it, even with quite dark glasses. You SHOULD not look into it under any circumstances. It's a major flood light, and will make a wide arc in front of you for easily fifty meters as bright as you could possibly want. The bulb is maybe 12% efficient at turning electrical energy into light, with the remainder being dumped as heat - if you hold this light up to something dark, it will melt, bubble, or ignite in seconds. Against a paper towel, it takes 20-30 seconds before ignition. You should not ever, ever, EVER set it face-down on anything while it's on, and never, ever put your hand over the business end for any length of time.

The burn time per battery pack is about 20 minutes. I have a couple spares, so when I actually -need- that kind of light I can go for a while - but mostly "The Torch" is a fun toy, and occasionally for finding lost keys. I have used it to remind a motorist behind me that their brights were on - it got the point across very well, I like to think.

The estimated driven wattage of the bulb is in the area of 150w in this configuration.

Chris has a sub-forum of his own over at www.candlepowerforums.com, under the heading of "Mac's Customs." There is a feller selling a Torch right now, bundled with a "Mini HID" - a tailcap-switched 10w arc lamp built into a 1D-sized Mag. About 500lm, and it throws light a light sabre.
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Postby NecroVale » 10 Oct 2007, 13:16

Sable, for someone to break into your home, wouldn't there need to be other people in Alaska? Also, you should have your walrus trained in self-defense tactics. :P
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Postby Sable » 10 Oct 2007, 13:20

Well, Chewy the Walrus is getting along in years - he can't gore people like he used to be able to.

And there's at least four other people in Alaska...er, well, I've heard, anyway. I think some scientists went to go find them to radio tag them?
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Postby robothero » 10 Oct 2007, 14:22

Ishamel wrote:...the reason jokes are jokes is that they are overstatements.
One thing to note is when a joke portrays three stances on a controversial matter, and only two out of those three stances are exaggerated for comic effect, it's pretty clear which stance the author of said joke favours.

Exaggeration is always relative to what one considers to be correct or normal.

To think of a non-controversial example, if I think 5'6" is average height, when I want to exaggerate the height of a 6' tall guy, I'll make him taller. If I think 6'6" is average, I'll make the 6' tall guy shorter.
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Postby Yukikaze » 10 Oct 2007, 19:29

Sable.

That does not sound cheap, but it does sound like good fun. I've had more than a couple of times when I wanted to explain to other motorists that I don't like being touched back there.

Maybe I could engineer a version using an LED array. Probably end up being a full-custom casing.

And you other guys, Grahm told us to stop. So stop.

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