Private Military Companies aka Mercenaries.

[Hakaryu]

Looking over a few mercenary contractors I read up on the controversy surrounding them, especially Black Water. Its been accused of being an army of crusaders by former employees even though the founder denies otherwise. They've been accused with evidence of shooting innocent unarmed Iraq civilians.
They've also been accused of weapons running, drug trafficking, child prostitution and various other felony crimes.

Given the power of a modern military, do we really need mercenaries to be doing the jobs we should be doing ourselves? From the data i've seen it costs more per-day to hire a merc then it is to just pay your own soldiers.

Anyone for or against mercs?

[infinite_guest]

OH NO YOU D'INT.

[Hakaryu]

Err.what was the point of that post?

[Bananafish]

They've been accused with evidence of shooting innocent unarmed Iraq civilians.
They've also been accused of weapons running, drug trafficking, child prostitution and various other felony crimes.

Given the power of a modern military, do we really need mercenaries to be doing the jobs we should be doing ourselves? From the data i've seen it costs more per-day to hire a merc then it is to just pay your own soldiers.

You raise a good point. The US army has proven that it is very capable of killing innocent Iraqi civilians, I don't think they need any help.

Of course you could give the money to a soldier but the point of Mercenaries is that they specialize in certain tasks and can do them better than your typical soldier. Also how could you manage paying only certain soldiers for something a lot of them could probably do, that's just a giant can of worms.

[infinite_guest]

Err.what was the point of that post?

Ah, my joke has fallen flat. I was making a reference to the Mercenaries 2 ad. Because it was the first thing I thought of.

[Metcarfre]

Technically, mercenaries are illegal to signatories of the Geneva Conventions. Blackwater's a "private security contractor" or somesuch.

My opinion; they are bad.

[DmitriW]

Mercenary groups seem to be a bit of a necessary evil, here in the States...we simply don't have enough soldiers in the actual military to manage all the areas where we are currently deployed. To most sensible people, this would generally be a sign that we're spread too thin...but these days, suggesting that we concentrate our forces brings cries of "traitor." :\

[DmitriW]

Err.what was the point of that post?

Ah, my joke has fallen flat. I was making a reference to the Mercenaries 2 ad. Because it was the first thing I thought of.

Didn't you? Oh no, you didn't pay me what you owe me...

[Hakaryu]

Mercenary groups seem to be a bit of a necessary evil, here in the States...we simply don't have enough soldiers in the actual military to manage all the areas where we are currently deployed. To most sensible people, this would generally be a sign that we're spread too thin...but these days, suggesting that we concentrate our forces brings cries of "traitor." :\

Here's another question then. If they are a needed evil, should they be held to the laws of the country they are in, the laws of the country they are hired by, or military law? Confusion surrounding what rules they follow has let them sneak through the court systems pretty easily.

It is worth noting that the US Gov has not renewed BW's contract and hired a new merc group.

[DmitriW]

Here's another question then. If they are a needed evil, should they be held to the laws of the country they are in, the laws of the country they are hired by, or military law? Confusion surrounding what rules they follow has let them sneak through the court systems pretty easily.

I absolutely agree with you. They ought to be held to the same standards as the actual military.

[Metcarfre]

Here's another question then. If they are a needed evil, should they be held to the laws of the country they are in, the laws of the country they are hired by, or military law? Confusion surrounding what rules they follow has let them sneak through the court systems pretty easily.

I absolutely agree with you. They ought to be held to the same standards as the actual military.

I disagree, to an extent. In Canada, joining the military means you actually have to revoke some of your Charter rights and privileges (most notably free speech, but others also). I don't think that needs to extend to PMCs.

[Master Gunner]

My understanding (taking entirely from an episode of JAG, and thus in all likelihood completely wrong and you can ignore this post) is that civilians attached to military units are subject to military rule and law. So attach PMCs to military units, under military command, and then they are subject to the same military law that the regular soldiers are. Seems to me that would smooth out a lot of problems.

[Hakaryu]

What about when it comes time for them to be held accountable like the mercs who comitted murder? Generally speaking military tribunals are rather lenient with their own and it would be better to convict them in a civilian court.

That being said, one of the issues as well is the fact congress and bush passed laws to protect BW's ass from the iraqi gov.

[goat]

Blackwater changed their name to Xe in an attempt to dodge negative press.

That's the only productive thing I have to add for now, maybe more if I have some sleep.

[Cake]

[quote="Bananafish"
You raise a good point. The US army has proven that it is very capable of killing innocent Iraqi civilians, I don't think they need any help.
[/quote]
Wow. Way to insult an entire group of people, who are all heros.

[Metcarfre]

Did you just call the good people of America's Fighting Forces sandwiches?

Terrorist.

[Hakaryu]

He makes a good point though cake even if it wasn't worded well. A few select soldiers are just as bad as mercenaries when it comes to raping and pillaging but key phrase "select" it doesn't reflect our military as a whole compared to Black Water being all bad.

[Bananafish]

Wow. Way to insult an entire group of people, who are all heros.

Do you seriously believe that US troops are completely blameless in the incredible amount of civilian deaths in Iraq, if not largely responsible?

oh, shi
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

[Arius]

I'm pro mercenaries. But, I think they should be subject to the laws of the country they are based in.

So, basically, if they kill an innocent civilian, they should be arrested and charged with murder.

Also, Rambo was a mercenary. And Rambo can do no wrong.

[Elomin Sha]

Depends on the mercenaries for me. If they were the Knight Sabers from Bubblegum Crisis, I'm for them (because I want a power armoured hard suit).

[SammiRei]

Err.what was the point of that post?

Ah, my joke has fallen flat. I was making a reference to the Mercenaries 2 ad. Because it was the first thing I thought of.

Didn't you? Oh no, you didn't pay me what you owe me...

It's all fun and games until someone gets shot in the ass....

[Theremin]

Has the name 'BLACK WATER' ever signified anything good?

[OmegaTheta]

mercenaries are a remnant of a bygone age which is slowly making a resurgence mostly due to a lack of political or social unity. Basically for every person who is a mercenary there is one less person in their homelands national military force. For many of them I suspect that they start into the profession thinking that its the only w ay that they can do some good for themselves/family/people but they perhaps don't agree with their national armies code of ethics... or perhaps their nation doesn't really have a standing military organization....who knows? the end result is that you have a bunch of people who aren't NECESSARILY evil but because the whole thing is not a governmental organization and is indeed a private company, the hiring standards do not preclude psychos and sociopaths from getting in. in short the idea behind mercenaries is one that i can get behind....mainly because the only reason im thinking of joining the US armed forces is because the private sector has SCREWED me and at least the US government knows I'm not a total psycho.....on days that end in y at least....but i digress...i think, anyways...all in all one should look to the individuals who are doing the crimes and promoting the committal of said crimes and not the ideology as a whole. I mean if you go that way then all Christians are biggoted psychophants, the arabs are a bunch of suicidal extremists the jews are money grubbing schemers, the chinese are a bunch of evil plotting commy bastards(well maybe not too far off but i give them benefit of the doubt) and every person who has ever worked at a Mcdonalds drive thru window has a hearing deficiency....you will note i didnt say anything about america there mostly because we are a bunch of arrogant extremists who are so utterly convoluted that we honestly don't know WTF is going on....anyways... i hope that my mindless rant has put perspective on things...or at least made you giggle incessantly... i know i did!

[Hakaryu]

Omega you make a good point about looking at mercs as individuals but the problem with a company like Black Water is it's founded and run by a man who believes in carrying on the crusades and sent his soldiers to Iraq because he personally believes that muslims should die no matter what because they go against the church.

[Bananafish]

Omega you make a good point about looking at mercs as individuals but the problem with a company like Black Water is it's founded and run by a man who believes in carrying on the crusades and sent his soldiers to Iraq because he personally believes that muslims should die no matter what because they go against the church.

uh, sorry if they didnt wanna die then they shouldnt be muslim. it sounds p simple to me i dont know what you mean

now, i'm not religious in any way (heh), but i think it would be very easy to give it up in order to live i mean if they arent willing to do that then theyre going against a natural human instinct to survive which makes them abnormal and they should die anyway heh

no offense i mean lol