Columbus, the man and... the seriusly wierd myth

[Smeghead]

A few years ago the US had a great celebration because of the 500 year anniversary of Columbus' discovery of America. Something that made the Norwegians and Icelandic’s go "Hang on a minute!" and in response to them both the Native Americans went "Hang on a minute!".

But that’s not what this is about, but rather about Columbus himself, a man that is a bit of a mystery even to this day.
Mystery because no one actually knows where he was from. History has put his origins to somewhere in Iberia, and most people can get behind that.

But then we have the people who don't, who claim that he could have been Italian, French, Polish or even Greek. All possible, but unlikely.

And then we have the people who will put their lives behind the theory that he was born in the USA... and I wish that I was making this theory up, but sadly I'm not.

Yes it's true, there are people who claim that he was from the USA, which makes me wonder how they justify that theory? Was he a native who went over to Europe in a canoe, and then decided not to tell anyone where he was from but rather wait half his life trying to set up a expedition to "discover" his homeland and then bring back syfilis to Europe as a pre-emptive strike against the future colonists?
Or are they basing it on some sort of paradox-free time travel idea?

I really wanna know how they justify that claim

[Master Gunner]

Some people are stupid and still think the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around us. Columbus is a "US" icon, and thus must have being from the US. They just didn't put any thought into it, and went with their first instinct.

Alternatively, they're trolls.

[Theremin]

There's a simple explanation.

People who believe a man could have been born in a country he was accredited for 'discovering', are obviously very silly and delusional.

It's probably a nationalist belief that some Yanks want to entertain.

Connected to the whole 'chosen nation' thing.

[Intellectually funky]

wait... we celebrated him? why? He didn't discover America! He found the Dominican Republic, he proved the world was round. so we celebrated and because we did now we look like idiots who didn't read a textbook... great. we should be celebrating the vikings, barbaric as they may be... they actually found America.

[empath]

wait... we celebrated him? why? He didn't discover America! He found the Dominican Republic, he proved the world was round. so we celebrated and because we did now we look like idiots who didn't read a textbook... great. we should be celebrating the vikings, barbaric as they may be... they actually found America.

Well, primarily - he was wrong.

The minds of the time had already accepted the theory that the world was round, he just argued with others that the world was smaller than they thought it was and it would be shorter (and thus faster and cheaper) to sail west to India rather than sail south around Africa and then east, what with the land route not getting safe passage from the Mongol Empire anymore.

He never reached his goal, AND proved it would be MORE work to take his planned route, with a land 'portage' to cross to an EVEN BIGGER ocean that he never saw.

But he did make landfall in the Bahamas and find (and presumably name) Hispanola, and start a Spanish colony there; thus opening up the Americas to European colonization. You choice whether that was good or bad; I'm actually undecided on it, myself.

In the end, he does kinda embody "Serendipity: the effect by which one accidentally stumbles upon something fortunate, especially while looking for something entirely unrelated."

[infinite_guest]

Actually, he didn't prove the world was round. By that point, most people knew.

[Vigafre]

HAPPY LEIF ERICKSON DAY! Hinga, dinga, durgen.


Uh...Sorry Norway.

[Alja-Markir]

Happy Vespucci Day doesn't have the same ring...

~Alja~

[Sieg Reyu]

Columbus was a good man but he was not responsible for proving the world was round. He did not sail around the world like intended. He did not discover America.

He alerted Europe to America's presence and as such he is the father of America's colonization.

[Dave-O_Boy]

just to clarify. There was never a point when people thought the world was flat. It's one of those silly things that are taught to children.

[Katie]

just to clarify. There was never a point when people thought the world was flat. It's one of those silly things that are taught to children.

My mind just got blown.

Clearly my history teachers should have spent less time on dictators of the 20th century and more on this kind of stuff...

[Alja-Markir]

There was never a point when people thought the world was flat?

What about... ohh... today? There are plenty of people who believe the earth is flat. There are plenty of cultures whose histories include such notions. You can find old European maps which display the earth as a flat hunk of land, with the heavens revolving around it and under it.

The average person throughout history quite likely did think the earth was flat. Only the educated and the elite knew better. Yes, reasonably advanced astromony and geology dates back to ancient times, and yes, those scholars would have had fairly good understandings of the world and cosmos, but the average person on a farm somewhere probably had never given it an ounce of thought.

There are people in the world today who don't know what electricity is; people who don't know what atoms are; people who don't know what radiation is; people who don't know what stars are; people who have no concept of "zero"; people who believe that demons and spirits and gods and ancestors control their worlds and lives; people who possess only the knowledge needed to get by and survive in some of the poorest and most remote places on the planet.

They may know what a truck "is", but not what makes a truck work, or even how a truck is made. They may use fire every day, but have no concept of it as anything but an "element" tamed by rules that might bound both natural and supernatural. Advanced human education on a large scale is a very new thing.

~Alja~

[ThrashJazzAssassin]

Bah, empath beat me to everything I have to say on the subject.

[Theremin]

There was never a point when people thought the world was flat?

What about... ohh... today? There are plenty of people who believe the earth is flat. There are plenty of cultures whose histories include such notions. You can find old European maps which display the earth as a flat hunk of land, with the heavens revolving around it and under it.

The average person throughout history quite likely did think the earth was flat. Only the educated and the elite knew better. Yes, reasonably advanced astromony and geology dates back to ancient times, and yes, those scholars would have had fairly good understandings of the world and cosmos, but the average person on a farm somewhere probably had never given it an ounce of thought.

There are people in the world today who don't know what electricity is; people who don't know what atoms are; people who don't know what radiation is; people who don't know what stars are; people who have no concept of "zero"; people who believe that demons and spirits and gods and ancestors control their worlds and lives; people who possess only the knowledge needed to get by and survive in some of the poorest and most remote places on the planet.

They may know what a truck "is", but not what makes a truck work, or even how a truck is made. They may use fire every day, but have no concept of it as anything but an "element" tamed by rules that might bound both natural and supernatural. Advanced human education on a large scale is a very new thing.

~Alja~

I believe Dave's statement should be qualified with, 'On such a large scale or in the cultures in which we were taught such a view was once common'.

'Kay, smarty pants?

[Elomin Sha]

I thought Columbus discovered one of the islands around Cuba or Jamaica not mainland US.

[Alja-Markir]

I believe Dave's statement should be qualified with, 'On such a large scale or in the cultures in which we were taught such a view was once common'.

'Kay, smarty pants?

Are you kidding me? Something like 90% of human population believed the world was flat for an overwhelming amount of time. What cultures are you talking about? European cultures in particular, supported by the Church (which actually knew better but didn't want to confuse the "ignorant masses") believed the world was flat.

Do you just have no idea just how valuable and rare knowledge used to be? Or how controlled? Or how politically important?

I suppose it's a good thing if you don't know. Sign of the times, of the fluidity and freedom of modern knowledge. But it's important to realize how far we've come, in such a short span of time. We do things every day that would have been the wildest fantasies of a madman just two generations ago.

~Alja~

[Theremin]

Do you just have no idea just how valuable and rare knowledge used to be? Or how controlled? Or how politically important?

I suppose it's a good thing if you don't know.Sign of the times, of the fluidity and freedom of modern knowledge.

Oh Alja. You make it very hard to be civil to you.

What I'm saying is that the view that the world was flat most probably wasn't the most widely accepted view, or even the most common one. Historical scholars and scientists knew more than most give them credit for, and the average person wouldn't have devoted any thought to the subject.

[Master Gunner]

Yes, for most of human history, people have believed the Earth was round. However, the point of what was said by the above people is that many believe or were taught that the Earth being flat was a near-universal belief up until a couple hundred years ago, particularly by sailors (when sailors would have actually being among the first to notice that the Earth couldn't be flat). By 330 BC Aristotle had evidence of the Earth being spherical, by 240 BC having a rough estimate of the circumference of the planet, and by late antiquity it was what passed for common knowledge that the Earth was spherical, at least among those that cared (for your average mud farmer, it wouldn't exactly matter).

The idea that people in the age of exploration thought the world was flat was perpetrated by Washington Irving in the early 19th century, a myth which has sadly being passed along and taught as truth.

[Theremin]

See Gunner's post for the full answer, he words it very nicely.

[Smeghead]

Elomin Sha; yes he discovered some of teh islands but set in motion the "discovery" of the rest of the continents. Although the nativs didn't think this was such a big thing as they were pretty sure they had discovered the continent the lived on already. It didn't just pop in under them and they suddenly didn't need to swim everywhere.

As for the round thing; Befor and around the time of discovery; most normal people didn't ask wether the world was round or flat. It was an age when it was best not to ask questions like that if you liked to remain among the living. But then ofc the nobles and royals weren't "normal people" so they probebly asked more questions.

[Huxley]

Why is Columbus getting all the credit? What about Lief Erikson? That man's a hero. And a viking. Think about the parades that there could be!

[Smeghead]

Myabe you should start celebrating a day in his honor then, maybe it'll become a big thing.

Oh wait, there already is a day in his honor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson_Day

Guess you just have to decide how to honor him on that day

[Alja-Markir]

Oh Alja. You make it very hard to be civil to you.

Appologies. I admit, I am a tad curmudgeonly at times.

~Alja~

[Evil Jim]

I find it hilarious that Columbus never set foot on the continent, & died thinking he had found passage to India.

[Bananafish]

I've never heard the 'he was really from America' myth in my entire life, it sounds completely insane.

well i've got this canoe let me just cross the fucking altantic