Honestly Australia, what the heck?? {Mature}

[iwashere33]

@ theremin.

oh right, sorry if i came over a bit "fire and brimstone" about it, i do tend to get worked up about this stuff because this whole last week i have been going over it with a few different people and it seemed to get the point across quicker if i just state the basic principles of why two people end up on different sides of the censorship debate (religion) and the problems with one of those sides. i only got a little cheesed off because you said i was being nasty and whatnot. so i'm sorry if i came off like that, i am just trying to write it quick as i am paying for the joy to use the internet right now (waiting for plane in an airport sucks).


Um @ Mad Madam Mimm, i'm not sure what you want me to apoligise for - that i said religion is illogical? if you believe in something that's great but i think you should consider why you believe in it and what it does for you and why you would get offended if i say i don't believe in it. The reason religion came into in the first place is because censorship in australia is getting worse due to a guy called stepen conroy, who is trying to push his beliefs on the rest of us through internet censorship. his beliefs are from his religion which gives him his set of morals. that where the problem lies. he believes in some moral code that i don't, but he wants to censor my freedom to view what i want online.

And i'm not saying i'm high and mighty at all, i'm might be a sick evil fuck (depending on what moral code you go by). what i beleive is exactly that, my beliefs. just because you believe something else doesn't make me hate you or anyone else, i just can't sit by and let some one else push their religion into a law that will directly effect me and what i choose to look at. It's the same way that i feel about door knockers, if you believe something that's great but knock on my door at 9am on a saturday morning and then that directly effects me and they broke the concept of respect by waking me up when i just got off a long night of work. I am all for letting people go to church on a sunday, and i am friends with some people or do. but just because i don't agree with what they think - i am not going to DO anything to stop them going to church.

everyone should have that freedom to choose. that is the exact problem with any censorship, it takes out the choice.

[Theremin]

Thank you for the apology, but you missed the point again.

I don't think we're objecting to your views, so much as your behavior. You're being very condescending, and it's not endearing you to anyone in this debate.

[TorachiKatashi]

iwashere33, shut the fuck up. The theists don't want to listen to your uncalled for, abusive bullshit, and the atheists don't want to be associated with you.

I honestly can't blame theists anymore for groaning when an atheist enters a conversation, because more often than not, they're like YOU. When I say I'm an atheist, people think I'm like people like you, and that makes me sick.

I'm sure there are places on the internet you can go to bash Christians if that's really what you want to do with your time, but this isn't it.

Believe it or not, reeling back when someone responds to your shit and swearing up and down that THEY'RE attacking you and that you weren't trying to insult people, isn't good enough.

[Bananafish]

heh, go pray to your flying spaghetti monster, I'll be living in the real world

[Snowfire]

Heh...this is the sort of thing I try to get away from on the internet.

Oh well. People, time out? Please?

[Mad Madam Mimm]

i'm not sure what you want me to apoligise for ... [trying to weasel out of a tight spot]

Ok, one more time, and if you still don't get it then I'm not going to waste any more of my time on this. And I'm going to break it into small, easily managable sentances.

Grouping people together (be it Religious people, black people, ginger people, English people, Trekkies, cheerleaders or anyone with the letter Q in the name) and not only undermining them, but also calling them names? A, it's discrimination, and B, it's plain insulting.

Now, my parents always raised me so that, if I offend someone, I know I should apologise. Now that's not religion, that's plain manners.

I'm not cutting in on you saying you're an atheist. I really couldn't care less. What I have a problem with is you being a hypocrite. "Everyone has a right to their own belief". I agree. But you can't play that after startign on "all people who believe this are stupid".

Saying "all religious people are illogical-" (and leading to the inferrence that they are less intelligent) is offensive to people who are religious. YOu have clearly offended people here. An apology, as far as I can tell, would be in order. Unless of course it goes against your "moral code".

[iwashere33]

iwashere33, shut the fuck up. The theists don't want to listen to your uncalled for, abusive bullshit, and the atheists don't want to be associated with you.

I honestly can't blame theists anymore for groaning when an atheist enters a conversation, because more often than not, they're like YOU. When I say I'm an atheist, people think I'm like people like you, and that makes me sick.

I'm sure there are places on the internet you can go to bash Christians if that's really what you want to do with your time, but this isn't it.

Believe it or not, reeling back when someone responds to your shit and swearing up and down that THEY'RE attacking you and that you weren't trying to insult people, isn't good enough.

hang on, i'm not 'bashing christians'. the whole time i have been saying that i am happy to let them have their beleifs, i have been trying to put forward the idea that everyone can beleive what they want. and that it becomes a problem when you try to push that on other people. i am not abusing any religion or individual belief - just don't force me to live under that moral code.

and personally, i resent the idea that you call me an atheist. i don't like to be pigeon holed into any group, my statements towards god never have been definite yes or no. i said that either he isn't there OR not doing anything on this planet anymore. i am happy to accept that there could be a god but there is not enough evidence in any direction. the bible has "historical" information it that links it to the evidence that has been dug up. But that's a long stretch to say jesus was the son of god, and the fact that god/jesus/holy ghost hasn't appeared in the last thousand of years or done anything to change the world in a known way. why not an interview with CNN to let everyone know god is still around, or better yet - Do something and get rid of all nukes in the world.

i am not 'bashing' or 'abusing' any other particular group, and i am not saying if any one of them is right or wrong. i am not saying god does or doesn't exist. i am saying that no matter what you believe, the freedom to choose is the key to democracy, and censorship takes that freedom away.




to everyone else (and thanks to theremin for letting me know). i am not sure if understand how i am behaving in this discussion. i put forward an idea in relation to the thread, someone disagreed with something i posted, i tried to clarify and now i have bad behaviour?

i'm sorry if i have offended anyone with my 'behaviour', but i can not apoligise for my beliefs.


Edit: for Mad Madam Mimm: right, thanks for clarifying why you wanted me to apolgise. i can see how you might be offended by something i said. and i am sorry if you got upset by something i said. but my point is just that, why do you get upset if i think that religion is illogical? isn't that the whole point of faith argument? if you beleive something than shouldn't you say why you beleive in that (like how i have cleared up why i don't see logic in it, and made examples with that whole burning house thing).

and then we could discuss why someone's morals should be forced on others - like what stephen conroy is trying to do.

[Theremin]

Christy, it's like pulling teeth with you.

Good luck to everyone else.
*exits thread*

[Snowfire]

Someone lock this thread please.

[iwashere33]

well gee. that's not censorship at all...

[Bananafish]

Yo I'ma actually help you and give you some advice.

If you are trying to debate a religious person you should be aware of the fact that some of them have a certain defense built around them. I've met a few who will completely listen to reason but the second you start insulting them they will raise that wall and anything you have to say will be wasted.

If someone has been heavily indoctrinated religiously they may be taught certain 'buzzwords' that will make them defensive, and you have to work around that. I try to avoid words like 'evolution', because whether or not they want to they may subconsciously take that as a cue to just ignore you.

I'm not saying this applies only to religious people, a lot of people hold certain ideals or beliefs so close that it would be damaging to them if they were ruined, it's natural to do this and if you wasn't an actual discussion you should realize that acting like this doesn't do anything.

Unfortunately what some people do is read Dawkins and the only reason they get into the idea of atheism is so they can feed their self-satisfactory desire to lord their lack of faith over other people. You'll mostly see this in teenagers. They have no interest in rational debate, and in their preening smugness they become more annoying than any religious person could ever hope to be.

It's unfortunate that a lot of people's first exposure to atheism involves Dawkins because, while he is an educated person, he only cultivates the idea that all religion is wrong and should be wiped away (which is horribly wrong and closed-minded).

I'm trying to be civil and to show you how this works, because otherwise you'll just brush it off and go back to being 'that guy.'

[iwashere33]

I'm trying to be civil and to show you how this works, because otherwise you'll just brush it off and go back to being 'that guy.'

ahhh, i see. thank you for the advice. i can only hope to be more gentle with certain words i use. it seems a bit easier to talk to people in person as i can at least go slow with people and ask more questions about the problem. i'll try to asborb that advice. you seem wise mr.bananafish. thank you.

[Bananafish]

So, New Zealand gave a parrot a government position.

[TorachiKatashi]

Who exactly here is trying to make you "live under their moral code," and what the hell does it have to do with censorship in Australia?

Here's some math for you. If you had said, "But clearly this guy is illogical," because he's using his religion to try to get bullshit stuff passed in Australia, that would have been fine, and I bet most people here would have agreed with you, because you would have been referencing that ONE guy.

But what you SAID was, that ALL religious people are illogical, by claiming that being logical and being religious are mutually exclusive. "All religious people," you guessed it, includes the religious members of this forum. Most of whom I didn't even KNOW were religious until they mentioned it in this thread, and most of whom I have personally seen have very logical views of many topics.

Are you free to say these things, if you really want to? Sure, unless the crew comes in and tells you to cut it out. But don't be surprised when the people whom you attacked, unprovoked, attack you right back.

Anyways.

Just one parrot? Not a bunchy of parrots stacked on top of each other? Boring.

[TheRocket]

Here's a tip: Don't bring up religious views or political views on a peaceful forum.

We have all types here, Christians, Jews, Mormons, Atheists, Agnostics...we can all respect other by not bashing. And what you are doing is using your words and saying hateful and biased things. You don't seem to realize this, and keep thinking people are just misunderstanding you. So you dig the hole deeper by saying more dumb shit.

The internet is full of places you can debate sensitive belief topics. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE.

I think maybe you should shhhhhh...

[Bananafish]

Just one parrot? Not a bunchy of parrots stacked on top of each other? Boring.

Well it tried to rape the head of a person on television. We need more go-getters like that.

[Wraith]

and before anyone points it out. yes i know trying to use logic on a religous person is self-defeating, if he was logical he wouldn't be religous.

And if you were intelligent, you’d realize that only a sad, small minded fool would believe that something does not exist he could completely understand it and the logic behind it.

heh, god? yeah I believed in god when I was like six. maybe you've heard of this guy dawkins? yeah he's kinda my hero, like jesus but better lol

Dawkins? Really?

...people still beleive that getting down on your knees and talking to an invisible, silent and ineffectual person just doesn't help. face it, prayer does not work, so either god isn't listening or doesn't care OR there is no god.

Or perhaps you are just so ridiculously arrogant that you have convinced yourself that you have enough data available to you, let alone even a fraction of the intellect it would take to process it all; and in doing so, commited the mother of all logic fails. Seriously, people who judge think they’re qualified to judge God crack me up. It’s like a dogs passing judgement on people. I have seen some amazingly intelligent Dogs. I once saw a video where a woman said “get me a pepsi!” and the dog opened the fridge and brought her a pepsi. She said “get me a Mountain Dew” and the dog got the dew. It knew the difference! That was a smart dog. And seeing eye dogs? Amazing! That being said, when the vet gives that dog a shot, he’s not going to understand what’s going on. He won’t get that the sudden pain he just felt is going to make him better. All he’s going to get is that this strange person hurt him. That’s all he understands, because that’s all he’s capable of understanding. More to the point, let’s put aside the issue of intellect and look at available data. Solve the following:

Train A leaves Nevada at 3pm. Train B leaves Ohio at 4pm. What caused server #18 to fail in the Rubicon datacenter in Phoenix Arizon to fail?

No matter HOW smart you are, you can NOT answer this question as is. It doesn’t matter how smart you are. You can’t solve it because you don’t have enough data. However, trying to figure out what cased server 18 to fail based on when a couple of trains leave their stations is far easier than trying to figure out the motivations of someone who bases his actions based on knowledge of everything. Every person in the world, everything they’ve ever done, why they’ve done it (the real reason why, not the reason they would give or even the reason they BELIEVE they did it, but the real reason). Someone who knows exactly why everything in nature happens, how everything, every person, and every action causes, prevents or affects every other thing, person or action.

i'm just saying that coming up with new laws that take away my freedoms because i don't believe in the same thing as you is the point because it's exactly against democracy.

THAT’S what you’re saying? All that crap about God is how you say THAT? WOW! That is a PISS-POOR language you have made up for yourself there, dude. Because in ENGLISH, which is what I speak, All you’ve said is a bunch of offensive, small-minded bull crap.

If you want to pray to get rid of all the child molesters, go ahead and let me know how that turns out. Me? i'm going to advocate the removal of people from society that harm others, you know like some sort of prison. seems to be more helpful.

Because that’s completely eliminated the problem, right? There hasn’t been any child molestations in YEARS because of prisons, right? How do you know that God hasn’t prevented more molestations than the prison system? There’s no real proof either way, don’t kid yourself.

um, yes. that's MY point. each to their own and play nice. live and let live. (i wasn't trying to attack master gunner personally or anything)

just don't try to take my freedoms because of some elses beliefs.

why can't we all just get along?

Crazy idea: if you want to “get along” with someone? Don’t tell them that they everything they live for, sacrificed for and in some situations DIE for is completely illogical.

Just a thought.

@Theremin
wow. you really seem to want to extract and read into every word i say. I didn't even know tone could be transmitted on the internet.

Really? You don’t see how

trying to use logic on a religious person is self-defeating, if he was logical he wouldn't be religious.

Would be taken as…I dunno…a little bit insulting to the intellect of religious people? My, you are a bright one, aren’t you?

my original post in this thread was regarding the topic of the thread - the censorship in australia regarding pornography. I mentioned that i was writing a letter about the guy behind most of the new censorship issues. he is a christian and that is where he is trying to cliam he gets his moral code. even if he takes the religion argument out of it, he is still taking the idea that he believes in something different than myself and wants to make a law to ban anything he doesn't like.

So then say “it’s bullshit that he is taking the idea that he believes in something different than myself and wants to make a law to ban anything he doesn't like.” Don’t talk shit about my faith. If you can’t figure out the difference, maybe you’re not thinking on a level where you should be judging other people’s mental acumen.

The problem on here arose because master gunner (again i'm not really attacking him, he can beleive whatever he wants and i respect that), he made the short response of "fuck you" when quoting my intial post about religion and the problems a logical view can have within religion.

No, genius. The problem on here arose when you MADE said post “about religion and the problems a logical view can have within religion.” Don’t poke a dog with a stick and then get pissed when he barks at you.

And as i you can see in my first reply to that, is that i understood his problem and tried to let anyone know why i have that point of view.

Yea, but you did so by again insulting our faith.

because logically, either god doesn't exist or doesn't do anything anymore [go ahead, prove me wrong i will always be happy to watch 'the power of prayer' in action].

Logic fail. I’ve already covered this. But I love the fact that in a post where you seemingly try to explain that you’re not talking shit about Christians, you still can’t help getting another jab in. Nice.

The idea of god can inspire people to do good things and that's great, But when any of those ideas are put into action by trying to take my freedom away that is when it becomes a problem, and the first thing i normally say to people who use religion in argument is to point out how illogical that belief is.

Then you’re never going to get anywhere, because even if there WAS a flaw in their logic, I assure you, YOU are not going to be the one to find it. All you’re going to do is run your mouth, espouse a lot of small-minded thinking, piss a lot of people off, and ultimately change NOTHING, except, perhaps, to make things worse, as you’ve done in this thread.

AS i said before and i'll say it again, you can beleive any you want, i don't care what you really believe, but if you want to make a law regarding pornography, you don't get to use personal beliefs to make that law.

Well now that all depends on how you define “personal beliefs. If you think about it, laws are, in fact; the ultimate extension of the public belief, which is really just our collective personal beliefs. People vote according to what they believe, and who they think will best represent those beliefs. If he believes that what he’s doing is representative of the will of the people, then pressing for it is his job. Your problem is that you’re incapable of understanding someone’s beliefs or motivations unless you agree with them. And that is why any effort you make to change someone’s mind or debate their beliefs are doomed to failure. I think this law is wrong, but I understand the thinking behind it.

I am not asking for 'clemency' when i say "why can't we all get along" i am putting forward the idea the we are all on the same planet in the universe so why cant we all be nice to each other. i thought it was a simple idea.

Because you’re NOT being nice to people. You’re being a condescending asshole and then acting like you’re “respectfully disagreeing.”

but if best you can do is attack me and say that i am "snidey", or "nasty" because i don't beleive the same things as any religion then i think you may have just made my whole point about how religion in action is bad for democracy.

He didn’t say you were nasty because you don’t believe in something, you idiot. He said you were nasty because you were talking shit about what OTHER people believe.

Um @ Mad Madam Mimm, i'm not sure what you want me to apoligise for - that i said religion is illogical? if you believe in something that's great but i think you should consider why you believe in it and what it does for you and why you would get offended if i say i don't believe in it.

There’s a difference between saying “I don’t believe in God” and saying “you’re clearly not logical, because if you were, you wouldn’t believe in God.” One states YOUR belief regarding God. The other trashes someone else’s belief regarding God. Again, if you can’t tell the difference, you have no business judging other people’s minds.

what i beleive is exactly that, my beliefs. just because you believe something else doesn't make me hate you or anyone else, i just can't sit by and let some one else push their religion into a law that will directly effect me and what i choose to look at.

Yea? Well if your plan of action is “get on the internet and talk shit about what people hold most sacred,” you might as well stand by, because at BEST you’ll accomplish nothing; at worse you’re going to make people want to being on the OPPOSITE side of whatever issue you’re so hopped up on.

hang on, i'm not 'bashing christians'.

… trying to use logic on a religous person is self-defeating, if he was logical he wouldn't be religous.

Idiot.

the whole time i have been saying that i am happy to let them have their beleifs, i have been trying to put forward the idea that everyone can beleive what they want

No, you’ve been feeding us bull-shit sandwiches where you spout off about freedom, then talk shit about religion, and then say everyone has a right to believe whatever they want; and then expect us to overlook the shit-talking.

Listen to me very carefully: when bullshit is the center of the sandwich, no one’s going to care how fresh the bread is.

If you are trying to debate a religious person you should be aware of the fact that some of them have a certain defense built around them. I've met a few who will completely listen to reason but the second you start insulting them they will raise that wall and anything you have to say will be wasted.

Dude, that goes for most people, religious or not. You want to talk reason? Fine. But generally speaking, people aren’t going to want to listen to you when you start insulting them. People don’t like to be insulted. It’s human nature.

There are a few exceptions, but they typically require some pleather and riding crops.

[Arius]

I disagree Wraith, iwashere33 is clearly more of a jackass than an idiot.

---

See, this is why I shouldn't sleep. I miss all the best parts. I'd just like to say iwashere33 does not speak for the atheists here. I love religious people a big huggy bunch, just as much as I do atheists. It's the militant jackasses on both sides that annoy me.

[tak197]

I agree, Arius. I personally believe in salvation through Christ, but no man speaks for me, not Billy Graham, Jack Chick, or Pat Robertson. And I have plenty of friends who are agnostic, atheist, and other 'conflicting' belief systems. (Except Bright and Shinys. Hate them bastards.) We just agree that we won't try to shove our religions down each thers throats, but we are more than happy to talk and debate civilly. Mudslinging and namecalling is right out, usually ending the conversation.

Also, I am both religious and logical, so take that argument and shove it.

Also, IN BEFORE LOCK.

[Joshua]

Holy shit this thread turned into a quagmire quick.


Anyways, the whole ban, thing is messed up, is there no, like civil rights there or what, I just don't understand how they can do this.

[elvor]

@Wraith

Bad. Ass.

[iwashere33]

hey wraith: how about this. 2 seperate arguments for you.

(1)
i don't beleive in religion or god - here's why, prayer does not work, so either god isn't listening or doesn't care OR there is no god. I am not atheist or theist, i am not stating in either way.

if you do beleive in god - why? have you seen christ or something? have you found evidence that my 'small mind' hasn't come accross? have you spoke to god? do you normally hear voices? i open to all evidence, if there was some to look at.

(2)
no matter what you beleive, trying to force those beliefs on others is exactly against the whole point of democracy, sure the voting system is meant to get unpopular politicians and ideas out of law-making power. but for now it looks as though this particular minister, is trying to bring in a forced and mandatory filter on the internet that will block everything the goverment doesn't like due to "refused classification" guidelines. the big worry is because is something is censored than you don't know it exists. in china where they have been filtering and censoring for years - have even made it illegal to show the 'tank man' image.

censorship itself leads to ignorance, the exclusion of new ideas (even bad ones) is only a backwards step for any group, country or planet.


so wraith. i am sorry if i may have offended you if it seemed like i was attacking your personal beliefs but they are meant to be personal, if you think that my position is wrong (i'm against any censorship and the reasons behind them are often religious - as with stephen conroy, so therefore i am required to point why i believe that position would be incorrect, [he wants censorship because he believes in morals that are derived from his religion] and i try to get him to see what i have a different position, it's called debate). So if you think that my postion is wrong and you want censorship, let me know why, i would like to hear your reasons for thinking that, so i might be able to understand the ideas of your beliefs.

[Lord Chrusher]

Your poor grammar including run on sentences is not helping your credibility iwashere33.

[Arius]

I love this thread a little more with each post.

[Machalllewis]

Your poor grammar including run on sentences is not helping your credibility iwashere33.

Mis-spelling believe is kinda irritating too.

It's I BEFORE E dammit.

I'd just like to say iwashere33 does not speak for the atheists here.

So very much this by the by.