Utah criminalizes miscarriage

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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby tak197 » 27 Feb 2010, 19:27

Oh dear. This is turning a bit heated. Careful all.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Bananafish » 27 Feb 2010, 19:34

Really? The pill prevents ovulation completely. Abortion is murder.


Do you think a woman who was raped and impregnated should be forced to have the child?

I didn't see anywhere that said she was forced to have sex and carry the baby.

I don't get it, are you saying that if a women decides to have a baby and then changes her mind that she should have it anyway even though she may end up resenting or abusing it?

Or should she put it up for adoption in an overpopulated system and *~hope~* for the best?
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Rikadyn » 27 Feb 2010, 20:23

Arius wrote:Guys guys guys.

I've solved it.

... Proving my signature right, one post at a time.

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We're not going to solve the abortion debate on a comedy forum.

But, as far as I'm concerned, human life starts once higher brain functions begin occurring. Until then, you're a fish.

A bit blunt, but it works for me.


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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Nevrmore » 27 Feb 2010, 21:20

Geez we've got both pro-life and pro-choice stereotypes tossing it up in here.

Matt is the right one here; You can disagree with abortion all you like, but calling someone who undergoes one a murderer just makes you an asshole, and not an affable asshole who everyone likes to hang around with for calling hipsters he passes on the streets "scarf-wearing megafags." A regular asshole.

I'll repeat what I said earlier; The woman that this topic revolves around paid a man to physically assault her hoping that it would result in a miscarriage. That is not something that someone who just wants to murder her fishbaby fetus does. This was a woman in fucking desparation. After doing something as dramatic and traumatic as that, telling her that she is as worthless and disgusting as a convicted felon only makes you look like a giant piece of shit.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Metcarfre » 27 Feb 2010, 21:21

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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Unclever title » 27 Feb 2010, 23:20

I'm gonna make one carefully calculated post here before the lock, and basically this will be it, I don't think I really have anything else to add except for maybe clarifying something I posted here that wasn't clear.

It is my strong belief that the greatest atrocities of mankind occur and are made possible when people devalue human life.

This is a major factor in genocide, slavery in all it's forms, hate crimes of any kind, and abortion.

Yes, I consider abortion here, partially because of the numbers (thankfully now below 1 million, that is annually), but mostly because I do indeed ascribe "personhood" to the fetus, even to the zygote, thus I equate it to killing and frankly I do not agree with the reason for the killing. Really it's always been rather obvious to me that a child, even preborn, is a person regardless of the number of cells. Why? In short, religious reasons.

I consider the only proper extenuating circumstance is when the mother's life is in danger.

----------------------------------------------------------------

As to the original post I find the law ridiculous and definitely not well thought out, at the VERY least not thinking properly on how this law can be misappropriated. Which is dramatically.

Not that I think it will be dramatically misappropriated. Though to be sure I am more concerned about the state of things that have caused the woman in question to become desperate enough to even consider this last resort. (And more the fact that it's even an option to begin with.)
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby iEatNinjaZ » 27 Feb 2010, 23:28

Arius wrote:Guys guys guys.

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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Heathen » 28 Feb 2010, 00:09

Regardless of what you can find in a dictionary, the definition of murder which matters in a common law country is, as any practising criminal lawyer will tell you, as follows;

Sir Edward Coke, per Institutes of the Laws of England wrote:Murder is when a man of sound memory, and of the age of discretion, unlawfully killeth within any country of the realm any reasonable creature in rerum natura under the King's peace, with malice aforethought, either expressed by the party or implied by law, so as the party wounded, or hurt, etc. die of the wound or hurt, etc. within a year and a day after the same.*

Commonly shortened for Law students the world around as,

"Murder is when a man of sound [mind]...unlawfully [kills]...under the King's peace...with malice aforethought."

So:
  • compos mentis
  • Unlawful act leads causally to death
  • Not during, and related to, wartime ("King's Peace")
  • With malice aforethought (Broadly, premeditation)

The point relevant here is that, where the death isn't unlawful, as in abortion, it's not murder, regardless of moralistic arm-waving.

So, quite aside from whether you agree with abortion or not, there isn't really much of an angle from which you can possibly describe it as murder. Least of all by quoting a dictionary.

*Though this is clearly only directly applicable to England & Wales the definition has become the basis for both codified statute and jurisprudential study in most countries, the United States and Canada especially. If you want to see just how influential it is, Google "malice aforethought". It's arguably the single most influential statement in Criminal Law worldwide. It has even been transcribed more or less intact into many US state codes. Even where it hasn't, you will see more senior Judges refer to it from time to time in justifying a distinction.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby sdhonda » 28 Feb 2010, 03:29

Unclever title wrote:I'm gonna make one carefully calculated post here before the lock, and basically this will be it, I don't think I really have anything else to add except for maybe clarifying something I posted here that wasn't clear.

It is my strong belief that the greatest atrocities of mankind occur and are made possible when people devalue human life.

This is a major factor in genocide, slavery in all it's forms, hate crimes of any kind, and abortion.

Yes, I consider abortion here, partially because of the numbers (thankfully now below 1 million, that is annually), but mostly because I do indeed ascribe "personhood" to the fetus, even to the zygote, thus I equate it to killing and frankly I do not agree with the reason for the killing. Really it's always been rather obvious to me that a child, even preborn, is a person regardless of the number of cells. Why? In short, religious reasons.

I consider the only proper extenuating circumstance is when the mother's life is in danger.

----------------------------------------------------------------

As to the original post I find the law ridiculous and definitely not well thought out, at the VERY least not thinking properly on how this law can be misappropriated. Which is dramatically.

Not that I think it will be dramatically misappropriated. Though to be sure I am more concerned about the state of things that have caused the woman in question to become desperate enough to even consider this last resort. (And more the fact that it's even an option to begin with.)


I tend to agree with this statement. Not to invoke godwin or anything, but certainly, a society that condones such behaviour is not a healthy one.

Funny, btw, how the abortion rights movement really got going at the same time contraception and safe sex education took hold.

That said, I can't quite agree that a zygote or some such is a person. But, trying to pin this down is a road to hell.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Bananafish » 28 Feb 2010, 07:19

I consider the only proper extenuating circumstance is when the mother's life is in danger.


What if the women was raped? What if during the ultrasound she discovered she was going to give birth to an anencephalic baby? What if, due to bad luck, she suddenly is unable to economically care for a child, what if the husband dies, what if a thousand other circumstances occur that are beyond her control and which will negatively effect the care that the child will receive?

Is the only 'proper' extenuating circumstance to you the death of the mother with no consideration for her own mental or physical well-being if she lives?

Sorry that your religion ascribes personhood to a zygote, but actually comparing a million annual abortions to the millions who have fallen victim to slavery and the millions who are currently being subject to genocide is really insulting. Do you see how one might be annoyed that you're comparing the abortion of a fetus to actual (living) human suffering?

Not that I think it will be dramatically misappropriated. Though to be sure I am more concerned about the state of things that have caused the woman in question to become desperate enough to even consider this last resort. (And more the fact that it's even an option to begin with.)


Sorry to tell you this but abortion will never go away, do you remember prohibition? If you go so far as to make abortion illegal all that will happen is these women who previously could have gotten a safe abortion and proper follow-up exams will now be risking their lives. I said before that this law is shit because it is saying that if you miscarry a 'fetus' even in the FIRST TRIMESTER that you can be prosecuted for murder. This law which is obvious pandering to religious constituents is saying that said fetus is a person and in doing so only increases anti-abortionist fervor.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Niko88 » 28 Feb 2010, 08:09

iEatNinjaZ wrote:
Oh please, they stopped doing that years ago.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby epocalypse » 28 Feb 2010, 13:59

I need my EU passport active. This country is just to crazyphail to be my only option.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Unclever title » 28 Feb 2010, 15:49

Bananafish wrote:
I consider the only proper extenuating circumstance is when the mother's life is in danger.
What if the women was raped? What if, due to bad luck, she suddenly is unable to economically care for a child, what if the husband dies, what if a thousand other circumstances occur that are beyond her control and which will negatively effect the care that the child will receive?
There are people, churches, and programs in existence to help people in such dire straits. Our society is not so completely fallen so that help cannot be found.

Bananafish wrote:What if during the ultrasound she discovered she was going to give birth to an anencephalic baby?
To be perfectly frank I was unaware of the condition, but it brings to mind that I neglected to mention the life of the child in that statement. (though I thought that would be fairly obvious) I'll extend what I said earlier. Another proper extenuating circumstance is if there is slim to no chance of the child surviving either birth or shortly after. However as an addendum, this kind of thing would have to be quite firmly ascertained.

Bananafish wrote:Is the only 'proper' extenuating circumstance to you the death of the mother with no consideration for her own mental or physical well-being if she lives?
Is the act of having a child so traumatic that people are often driven insane by it? Generally speaking childbirth is a thing people most often recover from.

Bananafish wrote:but actually comparing a million annual abortions to the millions who have fallen victim to slavery and the millions who are currently being subject to genocide is really insulting. Do you see how one might be annoyed that you're comparing the abortion of a fetus to actual (living) human suffering?
There have been 49,551,703 legal abortions in the US since Roe v. Wade in 1973. If a person considers most of these to be unnecessary and immoral deaths this puts it on par to exceeding most recorded genocides. Yes I can see how one might be annoyed by it simply from the fact that that annoyed person and I disagree on a few fundamental points. Regardless of the extent of how horrible these individual problems are they have the same root.

Bananafish wrote:Sorry that your religion ascribes personhood to a zygote,
Thanks, I was totally going for pity with that statement I made. Do you see how one might be offended if you spit in the face of their beliefs? Simply put, I believe in a soul that exists at about that point in development.

Bananafish wrote:Sorry to tell you this but abortion will never go away, do you remember prohibition? If you go so far as to make abortion illegal all that will happen is these women who previously could have gotten a safe abortion and proper follow-up exams will now be risking their lives.
Neither will war, famine, poverty, etc because in general humans are bastards. But there are ways to reduce these problems.

Regardless of the legality of the action the fact remains that during prohibition fewer people drank because most people are law abiding citizens.
Note that I am not saying that prohibition was the right idea.

Obviously if abortion were to be made illegal there would be more illegal abortions, it's basically in the definition of the statement. But what remains is that fewer women will have abortions because most women are law abiding citizens. Yes, some women will be risking their lives because, as I said, the root of the problem is not the law but the devaluing of human life. But that cannot be addressed within the legal system. That is more a result of the values of our culture.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby 2stepz » 28 Feb 2010, 17:01

Unclever title wrote:
Bananafish wrote:
I consider the only proper extenuating circumstance is when the mother's life is in danger.
What if the women was raped? What if, due to bad luck, she suddenly is unable to economically care for a child, what if the husband dies, what if a thousand other circumstances occur that are beyond her control and which will negatively effect the care that the child will receive?
There are people, churches, and programs in existence to help people in such dire straits. Our society is not so completely fallen so that help cannot be found.


I'd really like to take people with this attitude, place a week old infant in their arms, remove everything and everyone they've ever known from their lifes, and set them down in one of these "programs" to see how long they maintain their mental health.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Matt » 28 Feb 2010, 17:25

Unclever title wrote:
Bananafish wrote:Sorry that your religion ascribes personhood to a zygote,
Thanks, I was totally going for pity with that statement I made. Do you see how one might be offended if you spit in the face of their beliefs? Simply put, I believe in a soul that exists at about that point in development.


I don't care what you religion tells you. Science tells us that there is nothing definable as a "soul" in any mental or physical capacity. Consciousness is a function of the mind, and life is a function of brain and biological activity in the body.

Since we can extrapolate what science has taught us as known fact to all people, but since we can only extrapolate beliefs to those people who subscribe to them - the ONLY system of understanding that has ANY business whatsoever dictating the rules to which everyone must adhere are those based in the facts we have determined through study.

If you have some ideological difference with our scientific understanding of the universe, then you are more than welcome to abide by the rules set out by your ideology. No one is forcing you to have an abortion. But you have absolutely no business whatsoever telling me that I have to honor your belief of what constitutes human life, beyond that which we can show to be true for all people. I'm not spitting in the face of your beliefs, you can believe anything you want. But the moment you start using your beliefs to dictate policy that will affect MY life? Then we have a problem.

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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Nevrmore » 28 Feb 2010, 17:32

Matt, will you go out with me?
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Bananafish » 28 Feb 2010, 17:49

There are people, churches, and programs in existence to help people in such dire straits. Our society is not so completely fallen so that help cannot be found.


You're a disenfranchised black woman with distant or non-existent family, your church is too poor to avoid helping you or your baby, you've spent your life in a ghetto and your whole life your government has demonstrably proven they don't care the least about you.

Your husband is gone and if you continue with this baby you will not be able to continue working for the minimum wage that barely keeps you alive because your employer is literally capable of firing you for any reason and if he catches a whiff of a baby he'll fire your ass before you can claim maternity leave. Suddenly: Hope. A white Christian male tells you that you have to keep the baby because it's immoral to do otherwise before driving off.

Is the act of having a child so traumatic that people are often driven insane by it? Generally speaking childbirth is a thing people most often recover from.


I'm not talking about the actual act of childbirth, I'm talking about the economic, physical and mental repercussions of having one.

Thanks, I was totally going for pity with that statement I made. Do you see how one might be offended if you spit in the face of their beliefs? Simply put, I believe in a soul that exists at about that point in development.


Sorry if I triggered your persecution complex but I wasn't insulting your religion or beliefs, I was saying that you're using it to allow you to actually compare abortion to genocide or slavery. I don't care how many abortions there have been they are not even close to the cultural and mental impact that genocide and slavery has upon a group of people.

Obviously if abortion were to be made illegal there would be more illegal abortions, it's basically in the definition of the statement. But what remains is that fewer women will have abortions because most women are law abiding citizens.


Yes I can't wait for abortion to be criminalized so that women can go back to the days of unsafe and potentially lethal illegal abortions. Yes there will be fewer abortions and more women (and their children) will die as a result.

Yes, some women will be risking their lives because, as I said, the root of the problem is not the law but the devaluing of human life.


Are you saying that these women are having abortions due to their 'lack of values'? If we were to criminalize abortion please tell me what punishment you think would be suited for a woman who has just had something die inside of her.

But that cannot be addressed within the legal system. That is more a result of the values of our culture.


It can't be addressed within the legal system, but you want it to be addressed within the legal system. Can you please explain to me what culture you're talking about, who is included in it, and how women's rights have contributed to its downfall. tia
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby I X » 28 Feb 2010, 18:08

Don't mind my bluntness here, but I can pretty much sum up my feelings on this in two words. And I have spent some considerable time debating it in the past. I have come to the following conclusion.

Two words: Her. Choice.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby korri » 28 Feb 2010, 18:14

PROGRAM_IX wrote:Don't mind my bluntness here, but I can pretty much sum up my feelings on this in two words. And I have spent some considerable time debating it in the past. I have come to the following conclusion.

Two words: Her. Choice.


Same here, I have personal ideas but I think it mostly comes down to the woman's (and in some case the man's) choice.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby I X » 28 Feb 2010, 18:19

When you get down to it, your opinion is very simple. It's a yes or a no (in some cases an if condition is attached) and the rest is all rationalisation and putting your personal spin on the topic. Which frankly can cloud the issue.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby epocalypse » 28 Feb 2010, 19:08

Matt wrote:
Unclever title wrote:
Bananafish wrote:Sorry that your religion ascribes personhood to a zygote,
Thanks, I was totally going for pity with that statement I made. Do you see how one might be offended if you spit in the face of their beliefs? Simply put, I believe in a soul that exists at about that point in development.


I don't care what you religion tells you. Science tells us that there is nothing definable as a "soul" in any mental or physical capacity. Consciousness is a function of the mind, and life is a function of brain and biological activity in the body.

Since we can extrapolate what science has taught us as known fact to all people, but since we can only extrapolate beliefs to those people who subscribe to them - the ONLY system of understanding that has ANY business whatsoever dictating the rules to which everyone must adhere are those based in the facts we have determined through study.

If you have some ideological difference with our scientific understanding of the universe, then you are more than welcome to abide by the rules set out by your ideology. No one is forcing you to have an abortion. But you have absolutely no business whatsoever telling me that I have to honor your belief of what constitutes human life, beyond that which we can show to be true for all people. I'm not spitting in the face of your beliefs, you can believe anything you want. But the moment you start using your beliefs to dictate policy that will affect MY life? Then we have a problem.

-m


Matt, I don't disagree with you on any particular point, and I consider myself basically in tune with everything that your saying, save for the idea that there is mentally no basis for a soul, which I feel is more of a semantic and philosophical issue than a scientific one.

I refuse to view birth control, whether it be abortion or a condom, wrong, and aligning it to murder is completely and abjectly wrong in my opinion. Even in a spiritual and philosophical sense, I don't consider these things similar to a fully formed human life. For the record, a brain dead, provably brain dead, human, should also be allowed to die. It's all about the mind, and the unborn don't have minds.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Interruptor Jones » 28 Feb 2010, 19:18

Unclever title wrote:As to the original post I find the law ridiculous and definitely not well thought out, at the VERY least not thinking properly on how this law can be misappropriated. Which is dramatically.


Thank you for your input; I find this a creepy and very ambiguous piece of lawmaking. No matter one's personal views, I consider it a bad idea to implement new laws as a kneejerk response to one person's actions.

This thread got offtopic like nobody's business, but I was kind of expecting that.

Anatidaephobia wrote:I didn't see anywhere that said she was forced to have sex and carry the baby.


I am glad to hear that you were celibate until your marriage.

Matt wrote:If you have some ideological difference with our scientific understanding of the universe, then you are more than welcome to abide by the rules set out by your ideology. No one is forcing you to have an abortion. But you have absolutely no business whatsoever telling me that I have to honor your belief of what constitutes human life, beyond that which we can show to be true for all people. I'm not spitting in the face of your beliefs, you can believe anything you want. But the moment you start using your beliefs to dictate policy that will affect MY life? Then we have a problem.

-m


PROGRAM_IX wrote:Don't mind my bluntness here, but I can pretty much sum up my feelings on this in two words. And I have spent some considerable time debating it in the past. I have come to the following conclusion.

Two words: Her. Choice.


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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Unclever title » 28 Feb 2010, 20:01

It's become clear to me that my continued posting in this thread can only lead to more of me putting my foot in my mouth in trying (and often failing) to explain my own position.

To those whom I disagree, obviously we disagree. And I'll leave it at that tautology.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby Interruptor Jones » 28 Feb 2010, 20:47

Nonetheless, you conversed thoughtfully and without resorting to douchebaggery. Agreeing to disagree is no failure in my eyes.

Also -

[quote=]The pill prevents ovulation completely.[/quote]

Not true. The pill is designed to suppress ovulation, and can have some hideous side effects since it interacts with the endocrine system (your hormones). And a woman with polycystic ovarian syndrome will be more likely to conceive if she takes the pill... especially delightful for a woman who doesn't know she has PCOS. TL;DR there is no guaranteed method of contraception, ever.
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Re: Utah criminalizes miscarriage

Postby evilgenius » 28 Feb 2010, 22:27

Unclever title wrote:. Yes, some women will be risking their lives because, as I said, the root of the problem is not the law but the devaluing of human life. But that cannot be addressed within the legal system. That is more a result of the values of our culture.


But that is the laws problem law exists to protect the community and the individuals in it not to impose idealistic morals on the real problems of a community. In this case its a bad idea to make abortion illegal because, even though it may offend your morals, there are so many "what if"s that making it illegal would lead to way to many dangerous illegal abortions. I guess in short: making it illegal hurts more people then it saves.


On topic i think this law is silly if a women was that desperate to not have the baby then she needs help not punishment

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