The Sex Thread

[Matt]

Matt, I doubt anyone expects to be shouted down because of a friendly greeting, whether they asked for it or not. I always appreciate when people say "hi" or "good morning" or whatever, I return the greeting and go on my way. Calling someone a pervert when they greet you and then keep walking is somewhat uncalled for.

I don't disagree.

My point is that if a person engages in this behavior, and it is regularly responded to negatively, then the behavior should end. Hosk may think he's just being polite, but If he's snubbed as often as he seems to think he is, then that's obviously not how it's being received.

So, if it's not being received well, why keep doing it? The women clearly don't think it's polite. The women's reported responses suggest that they actually find it rude or threatening. At the very least they find it unwelcome.

Rather than respect this, Hosk has chosen to double down. He has asserted that it is his RIGHT to say hi, regardless of how the women he says "hi" to may feel about it - and he has openly admitted that he's been received negatively "hundreds" of times.

That right there is a denial of agency. It doesn't matter how women feel about it, he's damn well going to do it, to hell with them.

Yet a simple change of behavior on his part would alleviate the entire situation.

-m

[tamaness]

Huh, that sounds somewhat metaphorical... [>.>]

[Duckay]

To be quite frank, I don't know how much I want to share private details of my life with people who think that the factor hat occasionally I like to look hot means it's okay to leer at me, make lewd comments, or do other sexually inappropriate things. Which is a little difficult not to feel from this thread right now.

A lot of people are making comments to the effect of "attention isn't always bad" or "men can't ever look at a woman for fear of offending!", and that perplexes me because... Well, I had hoped I was obvious enough that there IS a such thing as good, socially appropriate attention and appreciation, but that BAD sexual attention occurs far too often and is really, really inappropriate. I don't emphasize positive sexual attention because that's not the focus of the thread right now. Especially because unfortunately a lot (not the majority by any means, but a percentage that it's hard to ignore) of men I have met don't appear to know how to be respectful.

People are getting really defensive about that distinction, and maybe it's partly just my bias, but I can't understand why.

As for your intentions being mistaken... Well, I'd rather support the person who is feeling unsafe, even if you really and truly mean no harm, because you don't know why they're reacting that way.

[Matt]

Huh, that sounds somewhat metaphorical... [>.>]

Yeah, I apologize for using Hosk as an example in this way, but this really does illustrate exactly what I'm trying to get at.

-m

[Duckay]

Edited for weird double post.

[Duckay]

I also note that I really don't think that, in general, it's about clothes at all. I've gone out to refuel my car in my dance clothes (basically tiny shorts and a tank top) and gotten nothing inappropriate, but have had really lewd catcalls in jeans and a hoodie. But at the same time, I don't think it matters at all because I feel like people doing that kind of thing are just as wrong to do it regardless of how I look.

I also note that one of the reasons I think it's hard to make the distinction between what's okay and what isn't is that sometimes it's hard to articulate the problem in text. Recently I was at the gym and I felt like the attention I was receiving from one man in particular was really inappropriate, but it's hard to explain in what way (he was standing too close, looking too much) without sounding stupid. I'm not sharing this story to complain or make myself look like a victim, but to point out that out of context, sometimes things that were inappropriate can seem more or less innocuous.

[Mowinckel]

if its you against the world... then you are probably wrong

[Dutch guy]

To be quite frank, I don't know how much I want to share private details of my life with people who think that the factor hat occasionally I like to look hot means it's okay to leer at me, make lewd comments, or do other sexually inappropriate things. Which is a little difficult not to feel from this thread right now.

A lot of people are making comments to the effect of "attention isn't always bad" or "men can't ever look at a woman for fear of offending!", and that perplexes me because... Well, I had hoped I was obvious enough that there IS a such thing as good, socially appropriate attention and appreciation, but that BAD sexual attention occurs far too often and is really, really inappropriate. I don't emphasize positive sexual attention because that's not the focus of the thread right now. Especially because unfortunately a lot (not the majority by any means, but a percentage that it's hard to ignore) of men I have met don't appear to know how to be respectful.

People are getting really defensive about that distinction, and maybe it's partly just my bias, but I can't understand why.

As for your intentions being mistaken... Well, I'd rather support the person who is feeling unsafe, even if you really and truly mean no harm, because you don't know why they're reacting that way.

I think a lot of the more defensive posting here comes from a base reaction a lot of people have when something nasty is being discussed. "I wouldn't do that/It's their fault/Someone else is doing it/etc" It's very easy to become defensive, and due to our current culture/patriarchy a lot of men feel like they NEED to go on the defensive/offensive.

Feminism and all the aspects it involves is a very very complex matter. It's very easy to get lost in the emotions it evokes. I catch myself needing to put quite a bit of thought into what I mean and what I consider acceptable/normal. And WHY I think that. What is patriarchy "making me say" and is this actually acceptable?

The problem is that for a man, the problem is very very hard to even begin to imagine. The first reaction most men will give is "pfffhhhh, no way it's that bad". Not because they are assholes, but because they were never made aware of the problem or were even explicitly told it was not that bad. Changing your opinion about that matter is not that easy. It takes time

[Wraith]

I’ve never understood women’s objection to guys staring at them. I’ve never once heard a guy freak out about it. Ok, so someone is staring at you. I’ve never caught a women looking at my arms, snapped my fingers in front of them and went “hey! I’m up here! So they like my arms. Great. That’s flattering.

So a guy is staring at you. They probably think you’re hot. So what? What the hell is wrong with thinking you’re hot? How is that a bad thing? Would you rather they think you’re ugly? I mean, I get it if they’re invading your personal space, saying rude things to you, and especially if they’re touching you, but honestly, I see no harm whatsoever in staring. You know what really pisses me off about the phenomenon? The vast majority of the time, women won’t get pissed off if they find the guy staring at them attractive. Seems to me like they’re not really pissed that someone was staring, they’re pissed that someone unattractive is staring at them, as if they’re pissed off at the idea that someone that looks like that would have the nerve to look at them.
Bottom line: there’s too much ugliness in the world not appreciate what beauty crosses your path. I say that as long as it stays at looking, let ‘em look.

Really, I don't think there's a non-creepy way of complimenting a female you aren't familiar with. So... just don't do it.

That is as sad as it is wrong.

Is it possible to separate public compliments, leering/ogling, and groping into three separate categories? For the purposes of the discussion anyways?

Maybe I have led a sheltered life, maybe things are different in the midwest in the suburbs vrs a big city but I have never seen groping take place outside of a bar (or other alcohol environment) without a large reaction from EVERYONE. In fact now that I think about it it normally gets a big reaction there too.

Right on.

Now in general I dress in jeans and a T-shirt with a funny inoffensive slogan such as things from think geek or a polo-shirt. I get these reactions most often from women dressed in ways I feel are inappropriate for public.

Like I said, they probably think they’re out of your league, which means you don’t get to look at, let alone interact with them. I mean, they’re obviously hot. Look at the way they’re dress. You don’t dress like that unless you’re hot, right?

I call it skank logic.

I sincerely wonder how you can chastise someone for using the defense "but she was dressed like she was asking for it" in the same breath as "but look at these girls, dressed in a way that's inappropriate for public".

Dude, comparing “she was asking for it dressed like that” and “she’s dressed rather inappropriately for public” is like comparing rape to “he kissed at the conclusion of our date without asking permission first.”

It is still inappropriate to leer, make rude comments (whether those comments are "hey sexy, get on my dick" or "you're clearly seeking sexual attention"), or assault these women. Period.

Inappropriate to make rude comments and assault them? Yes. But I’d like an explanation beyond “society says we shouldn’t” as to why it’s wrong to stare.

[Wraith]

Hosk, here's a hard statistic for you:

One in six women in the US will be a survivor of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault in their lifetime.

Define sexual assault. I can point to half a dozen women on Facebook and G+ right now who classifies kissing without permission as sexual assault.

By some definitions I have been raped.

And thoroughly enjoyed it.

You know literally nothing about the women you're saying hello to in the street, but with numbers like those, can you blame women for not always being receptive, even if your personal intentions are totally pure?

I don’t know about him, but I sure as hell can.

If we don’t to judge that a woman with a skirt that stops half an inch below their vag is probably looking to get oogled if not flat-out sex, then women don’t get to judge that personally average men might want to rape them.

Or have we given up on the whole “evils of gender-based double-standards” thing?

What reason do they have to trust you? Particularly if they are, themselves, a survivor of sexual assault?

What reason do they have to not assume the absolute worst based on your gender?

Really?

Also, Hosk, if I dress like that, yes, sometimes it's for attention, but it's not for YOUR attention. I want to look nice for the people I know and whose opinions matter to me, not some guy on the street I'll never see again.

Here’s the thing: regardless of who you’re trying draw attention from, you’re trying to draw attention. You’ve dawned an outfit that you know is designed to get people to look at you. And then you’re bothered because the wrong people are looking?

Bull shit. That’s not how it works. You’re not wearing some amazing future-tech infused nano-suit keyed to only show leg to the people you’ve designated as approved viewers. They’re designed to make people look. That’s their purpose. It damn sure isn’t protection from the elements. If you don’t want people look at you, don’t dress –in your words- “for attention.”

Frankly I can't bring myself to be too upset about men being "demonized" for failing to treat women with respect... Is it so difficult to respect people regardless of whether you think they're "looking for attention"?

Is it so difficult to grasp that “I’m looking at you because I think you’re very good looking” is a stupid thing to feel disrespected over?

One, there's many reasons why a woman may be dressed like that. I dress in very small clothes when I'm on my way to and from the gym or dance class.

The gym? You workout in a skirt. That stops half an inch below your crotch. Bull shit.

Two, there's a big difference between looking at an attractive woman, and leering at her. Glancing and appreciating (respectfully) is very different from staring, leering, catcalling, etc.

Yea, you know what the difference is? Whether the girl likes it or not. That’s about it.

…accusing a woman … of "dressing for attention" for that matter) does not show even the tiniest bit of respect for a woman,

Two posts up you said that you dress like that for attention. Whether you’re looking for attention from a specific person or not does not change the fact that you are in fact dressing like that for attention.

This being said, neither are men. Only speedos are allowed,

Anyone else staying the fuck out of France? Cause I’m staying the fuck out of France.

I don't understand how you can wear a belt as a skirt and be annoyed that people look at your legs. To me it's in line with wearing a full-body tiger suit and being annoyed that people turn around and look at you, and ask you if you're feeling "grrrreat".

Win.

And I don't get how the same people who seem to think in the Menswear thread that clothing is how you present yourself to the world, it tell them what kind of person you are, it defines how you're going to be treated, etc, suddenly think the opposite when women are concerned.

Pfffft. Silly Avistew. Don’t you know anything? Double standards only count when women are being held to them.

Why is there not a +1 button no these posts?

[Wraith]

If you're wondering why a woman might be wearing a low cut top or a short skirt... wonder about it from her perspective, not yours. Her clothing choices aren't about you. She's not wearing anything for you. She's wearing it for her.

Not always the case. How many stories and observational comedy sketches written by women are met with applause and agreements, based entirely around the ridiculously uncomfortable, impractical attire women wear to attract men? I’m not saying that’s the only reason women ever wear skimpy clothes, but don’t kid yourself for one damn second into thinking that it’s not entirely common for women to wear outfits like that for men.

3) The double standard. I mean, if you think about it, the male equivalent of a female with a mini-skirt is a male with the tiny shorts that show half his buttocks. If a male can't wear that without people looking at him and wondering what the hell he's wearing, if it's not appropriate to wear it in school or at work, then there is no reason it should be any different for females and mini-skirts. Are you telling me that if a guy was walking around wearing basically nothing, you wouldn't even look at him and wonder why he's wearing that outfit?

But mainly, it's the first one, by a lot.

Fuck it. You get a +1 anyway.

Avistew... it's not just about women vs men. Humanity live in a culture - creates and perpetuated by everyone - which tells them how to act

Fixed.

and they internalise it, and believe it's ok, that that's the way it's supposed to be, and if they don't like it they're indescribably but totally wrong.

Bull shit. Rebelliousness is all but expected these days. Look at 90% of the pop culture scenes. Women’s roles in said scenes are based around rejecting traditional roles. The most popular and sought after women are always rebels. People aren’t telling them they’re indescribably but totally wrong, they’re giving them awards for it.

So. Women are told by everything they look at that they're things, to be romanced and acquired and that they are weaker and that they have to be nice and compliment to everyone.

I literally cannot remember the last thing I saw that implied that. The only thing I ever see any more is the exact opposite “you are strong, proud and you can do anything, and don’t let any man tell you different, because they’re all just stupid oppressive pigs who will rape you the first chance they get because they think that they have a right to your body!”

Seriously, what the hell are you looking at that is still telling girls that they’re weaker and have to be nice and compliment anyone? That’s not rhetorical. I’m honestly looking for examples. And not obscure, ultra-conservative stuff, either. I’m looking for popular, mainstream, western-civilization examples.

What my eyes do cannot hurt you, I'm not a comic book character.

QFT

It's not about you, though. It's about how they don't know you and as far as they can guess you could be the worst thing they can imagine.

So because I could be, they get to assume that I am? How is that different than that assuming that a woman in a skimpy outfit is looking to get laid because I don’t know here and as far as I can guess they could be the horniest slut I can imagine.

Oh right, I’m not allowed to play the “men deserve the same respect” card. Let me pull from a different deck:

Why, when whites see a black man and get scared because they heard stories of black gangs and think “he might be one of them” it’s racist, but when women get scared because they heard stories of rapists and think “he might be one of them” we’re supposed to suddenly be so understanding? Or the folks at the airport detaining middle easterners because they remember 9/11 and they look at the guy with turban and think “he might be one of them.”

It’s the same damned thing.

I guess I just “don’t know what it’s like” because I’ve never felt that, right?


[

I take major offense to this. I have plentiful (male) friends who have sex with other men and are still not gay, and I also know of men who are gay and do not have sex with other men.

I have plentiful (male) friends who have sex with other men and are still not gay, and I also know of men who are gay and do not have sex with other men.[/quote]

Don't assume a strange woman doing it for your attention.

I think it’s idiotic to imagine that matters whose attention someone is trying to get when they’re in public. If you are surrounded by people, and you do, say or wear something with the express purpose of attracting attention to yourself, you do not get to dictate who has a right to look at you doing it. If you want to do something special to get one person and only one person something special to look at, do it in private. And no, that’s not sexist because it applies to everyone. If I did a strip tease for Rocket in a public place, and other women watched, I don’t get to scream and say what the fuck are you looking at? I’m not doing this for YOUR attention!

Also remember the "male gaze" is a social phenomenon that reflects the male-centric nature of our society - it is not a justification for being creepy.

Just for you

You can wear basically whatever the hell you want (at least, within the confines of our gender norms, but that's another discussion) without having people regard you as a piece of meat first and a person second. Why do you think they shouldn't be allowed to do the same?

I don’t think he was talking about outfits within the confines of our gender norms. Did you really not get that?

Men are not objectified in the same way women are. Period. Factual statement.

Opinionative statement.

When a man dresses in such a way as to highlight certain features, or present a certain message about himself, that message is internalized by those who see it as "this is a person who is also X"

When women dress in a way that highlights certain features, or sends a specific message to the world, that message is usually internalized by others as "dat ass" or "Boobs!" or" slut" or "prude".

Right. So when brad bit in his prime walked around with his shirt off, women didn’t internalize (and for that matter externalize) “those abs!” Or “those pecs” or “stud.”

Women do the same damn thing to me. The only difference is that men don’t get offended.

When we see a man dress up, we don't immediately assume it's to attract sexual attention from everyone around him.

I’ve heard more people than I can count speculate that attracting sexual attention is the driving force behind most, if not all of man’s actions. People don’t bother assuming that’s why men dress a certain way, because they already assume that’s why the do everything.

Reality. It’s what should be for dinner.

[Wraith]

Never. I have never once, ever, by anyone, ever, in the history of my life, been confronted by a woman I wasn't even loooking at. I've never been confronted by a woman I was looking at. I've never seen or heard someone I know, or someone I don't confronted for ogling a woman they weren't actually ogling.

Ever been raped?

Guess not everything that happens, happens to you. Imagine that.

The line is : “men, don’t be creepy.” Misunderstandings are going to happen occasionally. The line is that which simply allows the most people to go about their day unbothered.

Creepy is in the eye of the beholder. The only way you can say “men, don’t be creepy” is to say men, make sure women think you’re hot.

Why does it matter to you? They aren’t wearing it for you.

So what?

Welcome to the intersection between personal experience and patriarchy. Doing some reading on internalized misogyny might be interesting for you, but it might be jumping ahead a bit if you’re not familiar with the basics of feminism and patriarchy theory.

Talks about patriarchy. Is ridiculously patronizing. There’s irony there, I just know it.

Take your own advice?

I’m (sort of strangely) speaking in the voice of feminism on this forum, because it’s a discipline that I find interesting, and I’m familiar with it (and seemingly no one else is)

That's extremely disingenuous. Drop the defensiveness please.

Bullshit. It was an entirely reasonable question. As I said, I can point to have a dozen feminists who would qualify things that I’m certain you’ve done as sexual assault. And when I hear that one in six will be a victim, I’m inclined to question how exactly those numbers are derived, and what definition, for the purpose of arriving at these figures, was used for sexual assault. That’s not disingenuous. That’s intellectually responsible. Some of us don’t blindly accept statistics simply because they gel with our world view.

[Wraith]

This is a disingenuous argument. you can not simultaneously be raping a person, while being raped. it doesn't work that way, and no one would ever prosecute it that way. That has just ocurred is non-legally-consensual sex. ThatMAY be rape,

No, that is rape. That’s what rape is. Non-legally-consensual sex. That’s rape. Now you’re being disingenuous.

if one, or the other participant feels wronged by it in some way sufficient to feel victimized by the encounter , but it is not necessarily rape, if both parties, in the clear light of day, feel that their consent was uncoerced, enthusiastic, and ongoing.

Bullshit. Either it was rape or it wasn’t. You don’t get to say “I regret it, so it’s rape.”

And so the fuck what? They're at much greater risk of sexual assault than you are, inhabit a culture that borderline celebrates it, and in many cases are harassed daily by other men.

I’ve heard that logic before. “There are more black people in violent gangs than whites. And have you heard their music? They celebrate it and put them up as role models for being thugs! So why SHOULDN’T I be terrified of black people? They may want to hurt me!”

Same shit. Different group.

Why is it your RIGHT to insert yourself into a strange woman’s day, but not their RIGHT to give you a dirty look for it if it’s unwelcome?

Because one’s a social nicety and the other is rude, shitty, anti-social behavior?

[Lyinginbedmon]

Sounds familiar.

[Matt]

Oh jesus bike riding christ.

-m

[Duckay]

Frankly I'm getting sick of the argument, but first of all.

I don't appreciate you calling "bullshit" on my claim of workout gear. Skirts, no; tiny shorts, yes. You problem?

Second of all, seriously, if you cannot tell the difference between someone leaning into your personal space and staring and someone glancing you over appreciatively I think that's your problem, not mine.

I've said time and time again that looking or glancing or having a discreet perv is fine, but leering openly and rudely is not. There's an enormous difference and it IS inherently about respect. I don't think I can make my point any more clear, so you know what? I'm out. Have fun.

[Wraith]

Frankly I'm getting sick of the argument, but first of all.

I don't appreciate you calling "bullshit" on my claim of workout gear. Skirts, no; tiny shorts, yes. You problem?

My problem is that the picture he was referring to was not a girl in athletic shorts it was a girl in a short that stopped an inch below her vag. There's a difference.

Second of all, seriously, if you cannot tell the difference between someone leaning into your personal space and staring and someone glancing you over appreciatively I think that's your problem, not mine.

I mean, I get it if they’re invading your personal space

Very first post I made, second paragraph. It came before the part you took offense with.

[Graham]

I hate doing this, because it feels like saying we're not allowed to have these discussions, and that's not the case.

But so many people on both sides on this debate are handling it, and themselves, so poorly that it's doing a disservice to the whole thing.

So, I'm locking this down. This is not something that is easily discussed on a forum. I'm sorry.