This thread is so gay

[AlexanderDitto]

Question; I have some people, an older couple I tangentially know, who owned a flower farm (growing dahlias). Occasionally, they would have weddings there. A same-sex couple approached them about having their wedding there (same-sex marriage having been legal in BC for a while now), and were refused (by the older couple that owned the business). The same-sex couple sued them such that they had to give up the business. Is that cool? I don't know.

My personal view?

The farm owners were offering their fields for weddings as a business service; I assume they were charging for the use, and not just doing them for friends or relatives or something. You pointed out that same-sex marriage is legal in BC. So, they were discriminating against the couple. Which I presume is illegal in Canada. Think about this: if it had been an interracial couple, or an Irish couple, or a handicap couple (who were in wheelchairs) and they had been refused a wedding, would that be OK? No. Would you feel sorry for them if, instead of use of a field of flowers, they were preventing the couple from, say, having their hair cut at their barbershop? Would you feel sorry for them if they had refused the wedding to a couple on the grounds that they were black?

And I'm guessing the didn't sue to force them to give up the business; they sued because what they were doing was illegal. If a side effect was that the farm-owners couldn't pay for the lawyers and thus had to give up their business, that is unfortunate. But then, why would they choose to discriminate in the first place?

Unfortunately, the way the legal system is set up, it often seems that the only way to bring a legal grievance against a private organization is through lawsuit. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

But, no, if you're offering a business service, you don't have a right to discriminate against people on any grounds. If they don't want gay couples to get married there, don't offer your fields for use for marriages.

[Matt]

Question; I have some people, an older couple I tangentially know, who owned a flower farm (growing dahlias). Occasionally, they would have weddings there. A same-sex couple approached them about having their wedding there (same-sex marriage having been legal in BC for a while now), and were refused (by the older couple that owned the business). The same-sex couple sued them such that they had to give up the business. Is that cool? I don't know.

I'm split. I believe refusing business on the grounds of discrimination against a protected class is illegal here (correct me if I'm wrong) so on those grounds, yeah, I think they were within their rights to sue, if only to send a message that such discrimination is unacceptable.

On the other hand, forcing people to act agaist their own moral and religious convictions is a negative coming from either side of the fence. the farm owners were bigoted dicks, so go find some other nice place to have your ceremony, and let them be bigoted dicks that aren't earning your money.



So, yeah.

-m

[AlexanderDitto]

On the other hand, forcing people to act agaist their own moral and religious convictions is a negative coming from either side of the fence. the farm owners were bigoted dicks, so go find some other nice place to have your ceremony, and let them be bigoted dicks that aren't earning your money.



So, yeah.

-m

Except, if I'm not mistaken about the laws in Canada, what they were doing was illegal. If a business is doing something illegal, why would you let them go on doing it? If they were laundering money, surely you would not say, "oh, just let them go on laundering money, and spend your money somewhere else?"

Now, in America, where, unfortunately, discriminating against non-hetero couples is, in fact, endorsed by the government, your suggestion would be the right one.

[Matt]

On the other hand, forcing people to act agaist their own moral and religious convictions is a negative coming from either side of the fence. the farm owners were bigoted dicks, so go find some other nice place to have your ceremony, and let them be bigoted dicks that aren't earning your money.



So, yeah.

-m

Except, if I'm not mistaken about the laws in Canada, what they were doing was illegal. If a business is doing something illegal, why would you let them go on doing it? If they were laundering money, surely you would not say, "oh, just let them go on laundering money, and spend your money somewhere else?"

Now, in America, where, unfortunately, discriminating against non-hetero couples is, in fact, endorsed by the government, your suggestion would be the right one.

As I said, I figured it was illegal - and therefore the legal repurcussions justified. I still find the idea of forcing people to act against their own religious convictions distasteful.

I wouldn't advocate forcing churches to perform gay marriages, either. Only that they simply live and let live, and allow gay marriages to exist.

I think that people denying use of their property and such based on discrimination to be hateful and repulsive as well, but it is their property, in the end.

-m

[Drinnik]

OK, change the minority then.

What would your opinion be if they did it to a black couple? A disabled couple?

[AlexanderDitto]

As I said, I figured it was illegal - and therefore the legal repurcussions justified. I still find the idea of forcing people to act against their own religious convictions distasteful.

I wouldn't advocate forcing churches to perform gay marriages, either. Only that they simply live and let live, and allow gay marriages to exist.

I think that people denying use of their property and such based on discrimination to be hateful and repulsive as well, but it is their property, in the end.

-m

And if some more severe crime, like animal sacrifice, was part of someone's "religious conviction," it would be distasteful to force them to act against it?

EDIT: I guess I just don't think people have the right to act stupid, just because they want to, if it hurts other people. Or animals. Or things.

I don't think churches should be forced to perform gay marriages, because they're not offering a business service; if I'm not mistaken, most (EDIT Catholic) churches, (EDIT for example) require church membership as a precursor to getting married in that particular church, and I think homosexuality excludes you from membership anyway. Even if it doesn't, (Catholic) churches seem to be in the business of sanctimoniously discriminating against certain groups anyway (a protestant can't receive communion in a Catholic church, and I think you'd be hard pressed to define eating a transubstanciated wafer a "business transaction"), and either way it's deemed a perfectly legal sort of discrimination by the government.

[Metcarfre]

Yeah, you have to remember that although same-sex marriage is legal in Canada, there's a very specific and explicit proviso to that law that upholds a church's right to refuse to perform wedding services, or to have them held in their buildings etc. So does the farm count as a church for the purposes of weddings? (Since a religious wedding is a sacrament, or religious service, ostensibly it is always held in a church... no matter the form of 'church').

[JustAName]

I don't think churches should be forced to perform gay marriages, because they're not offering a business service; if I'm not mistaken, most churches require church membership as a precursor to getting married in that particular church, and I think homosexuality excludes you from membership anyway. Even if it doesn't, churches seem to be in the business of sanctimoniously discriminating against certain groups anyway (a protestant can't receive communion in a Catholic church, and I think you'd be hard pressed to define eating a transubstanciated wafer a "business transaction"), and either way it's deemed a perfectly legal sort of discrimination by the government.

...The church I used to attend had a lesbian pastor. Church is a very broad word; don't use it to only apply to the biggoted ones.

[Drinnik]

Fay has a point. The Chruch of England's willingness to bless civil partnerships is down to the vicar, as far as I know.

[AlexanderDitto]

Yeah, you have to remember that although same-sex marriage is legal in Canada, there's a very specific and explicit proviso to that law that upholds a church's right to refuse to perform wedding services, or to have them held in their buildings etc. So does the farm count as a church for the purposes of weddings? (Since a religious wedding is a sacrament, or religious service, ostensibly it is always held in a church... no matter the form of 'church').

Ah, now see, I did not know about this. If this is the case, then I'd say the suit is on shakier grounds. I'd go with Matt, then. They're dicks, but leave them to it.

Then again, a wedding doesn't have to be religious, and thus a wedding doesn't have to happen in a church.

Meh, I don't know. If the law has that proviso, they probably weren't breaking the law. Maybe in spirit, but not in letter. Or maybe in letter, but not in spirit? I don't know. It's still pretty unfair, and I don't really understand how "No gays in MY church" is OK, but "No blacks in MY diner" is not.

Edit: My apologies, JustAName. I should have prefaced church with Catholic church, as those are the only sort I have any experience with. That's what going to Catholic elementary school did to me: I often forget that there are other religions besides Catholicism.

[far_wanderer]

Question; I have some people, an older couple I tangentially know, who owned a flower farm (growing dahlias). Occasionally, they would have weddings there. A same-sex couple approached them about having their wedding there (same-sex marriage having been legal in BC for a while now), and were refused (by the older couple that owned the business). The same-sex couple sued them such that they had to give up the business. Is that cool? I don't know.

First of all, everyone has been making a very major assumption that is not actually contained in this quote: that the couple was refused access because they were homosexual.
Assuming that that was the case, I still think the lawsuit was a dumb idea because now there's a pair of elderly flower farmers (also known as a sympathy gold mine) who have nothing to do with their free time and a very excellent reason to oppose gay rights. The minor problem of old people who refuse to adapt may have been changed to the major problem of propaganda crusaders, and I bet the couple still didn't get to have their wedding in the flower field.

...I don't really understand how "No gays in MY church" is OK, but "No blacks in MY diner" is not.

There are some very important legal and cultural differences between a business and an organization, but for a moment let's assume they're the same. The very blunt answer is that we discriminate all the time for hundreds of reasons, and not enough people have yet been convinced that homosexuality deserves an exception like race does. We're getting close, but we're not quite there yet.

[Arius]

...I don't really understand how "No gays in MY church" is OK, but "No blacks in MY diner" is not.

There are some very important legal and cultural differences between a business and an organization, but for a moment let's assume they're the same. The very blunt answer is that we discriminate all the time for hundreds of reasons, and not enough people have yet been convinced that homosexuality deserves an exception like race does. We're getting close, but we're not quite there yet.

Many people still believe that homosexuality is a choice. As if you can choose how you feel about someone.

[Bananafish]

I just remembered a Vanguard report I watched a while ago about gay rights and anti-gay legislation in Uganda. It really shows a disturbing level of propaganda. If I remember correctly at one point the pastor Ssempa shows a porno of some gay men having sex and eating their own poop and he's all "THEY EAT THEIR OWN SHIT" you really have to see it to believe it.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/150328/vangua ... es-of-hate

[Bananafish]

plus gay men and women fearing for their lives if outed as being gay in their communities

etc

e: here it is on youtube if you can't access Hulu or whatever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo77w_71hA0

[aeric90]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo77w_71hA0

Eric mad.

[AlexanderDitto]

Ugh. I can't even watch it. It just makes me so angry.

But it's easy to think that this only happens far away, in Africa.

But remember, people are still killed in this country for being gay. People still have these weird impressions about gay people in this country. I can't find it anymore, but I remember seeing a video of a county school board, somewhere in the midwest, where one of the representatives was trying to denounce homosexuality. It was just depressing, watching her flounder, trying to describe what gay sex actually entailed. "Sticking their things in the other things." She described it as if she had no idea what sex actually was.

Edit: Goddamn it. I watched it. I can't... I can't... God. I can't. Can these people really be this inhuman? The senator who said he would have his own daughter killed if she was a lesbian? A monster.

I hope we stop their aid. Give it to another country that deserves it more. There are dozens of country in Africa that surely could use it more than these cruel people can. If they want to reject "Western Homosexuality," they can reject Western Aid, too.

[tak197]

Can we talk about other, not-so-depressing-and-angering topics? These are important stories, but I would rather discuss other things.

[Agloriouscuppa]

Can we talk about other, not-so-depressing-and-angering topics? These are important stories, but I would rather discuss other things.

Well we could... But what?

[AlexanderDitto]

Can we talk about other, not-so-depressing-and-angering topics? These are important stories, but I would rather discuss other things.

Yes please. Now I'm just angry.

I'm leaving for New York tomorrow... that's not depressing! I'm going to see my best friend! Trying to... work up the courage to tell her that I'm gay. We'll see how it goes.

[aeric90]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnZ3hy7Pk4A

[Agloriouscuppa]

I can tell you all the awesome and awkward adventure of 'Cuppa goes to Pride'

[Arius]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ge1iwDXcX2g

[Bananafish]

I hope we stop their aid. Give it to another country that deserves it more. There are dozens of country in Africa that surely could use it more than these cruel people can. If they want to reject "Western Homosexuality," they can reject Western Aid, too.

damn, dude

[Wraith]

This thread had two very big surprises for me:

1. Alexander ditto came out of the closet: You were in the closet? Holy crap, dude, I always just assumed we all knew you were gay. You don't seem like the type to hide something like that.

2. Tak is a gay man: to be fair, I probably WOULD have figured this out, but I thought that Tak was a woman (partially because of the avatar), so that kinda threw me off.

[Bananafish]

I totally thought tak was a chick too vOv