This thread is so gay

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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby betsytheripper » 22 Mar 2015, 12:00

What Fay said. As someone who's in the ace spectrum, knowing that I'm not alone helped me a lot. My sister's platonic lifemate is aro ace, and her self-confidence skyrocketed when she began to use those terms. For some people, labels are useful.

Though that person you're speaking of, Fay, is making me angry as well. Someone narrow-minded trying to be a gatekeeper. Ugh.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Deedles » 22 Mar 2015, 15:14

Yeah, there is a difference between labels and labels. I liked to label myself a Goth when I was a teenager, but it's a kind of useless label, because it doesn't really tell people anything about me(other than the fact that I was a teenager for using it in the first place). But labels for sexuality and romance can hold so much more power, because they actually DO say something about you, and as Fay and Betsy said, they make feel like you're not alone, or simply can help you understand something about yourself.

I, for example, felt like it was a relief when I found out that there was such a thing as bi-romantic, because I'd felt a bit misplaced somewhere in between heterosexual and bisexual for quite some time.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Avistew » 22 Mar 2015, 15:48

The issue with LGBT+ was that letters keep being added as the community becomes more inclusive (LGBTAIP for instance) but because it needs to keep adding to it due to being specific groups each time, it can go out of hand and become, well, hard to follow (what does each letter stand for? What about this minority that wasn't thought of when the acronym was last expanded? Etc).

Gsrm is a vaguer term since it doesn't list each subcategory. Of course it's still a grouping of several distinct types of minorities (for instance, a transgender person may not have much in common with, say, a pansexual person) but since the minorities face similar prejudice, usually from the same people, banding together makes perfect sense to me. Excluding people (especially saying they're part of one community but not another when really, as far as I can tell, they're just different names for the same community) is definitely not cool.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 22 Mar 2015, 15:56

Wouldn't it be better to just say 'I am a person' and if people ask or you decide to say what your interests (or lack off) are to say it then?
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Timelady » 22 Mar 2015, 16:11

..Yes?

But at that point you kinda need a word to use, so.

But, when you're talking about groups of people in general, it helps to have something to refer to that specific group of people as, which can become kind of difficult if that specific group keeps changing based on circumstances like who wants to be included, or who's there at that point in time.

...Although, let's be honest, I'm kinda hoping the "I'm a person" part is implied in this scenario. Or that there's aliens involved. That would be cool.

As far as the ace thing goes...I've been around Tumblr enough to hear that one before, and hear it enough, actually, that I think I'd be expressly uncomfortable in queer spaces for feeling like I was intruding.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Avistew » 22 Mar 2015, 16:17

Elomin Sha wrote:Wouldn't it be better to just say 'I am a person' and if people ask or you decide to say what your interests (or lack off) are to say it then?


In everyday life, sure. When looking for a support group because you're dealing with discrimination, it helps to know what group you're a part of though.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 22 Mar 2015, 16:19

I don't think you can end a sentence with a 'so'. I'm just get confused on why everything needs to have a label, like it's fun for people to get together and create one.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Timelady » 22 Mar 2015, 16:46

Personal verbal tic. Sorry. And sentence structure seems to fly out of my head when I'm tired.

I guess I don't understand your question. Nouns are labels. This is how language works. 'Giraffe' and 'burrito' are technically labels. Should we stop classifying things as giraffes and burritos?
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 22 Mar 2015, 17:43

If people didn't have to face prejudices, that might work, Elomin, but as it stands, saying "I am bi" to a group of queer people can signal "I have faced biphobia," "I am less likely than a straight person to descriminate against you" and a whole lot of other things. Also, if you don't have labels, people still make the automatic assumption that you are cis and straight. I don't want people to think that I am straight. That is erasing a whole big part of my identity. So just saying "I am a person" is sweeping a lot of who I am under the rug just so other people don't have to deal with certain words.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AlexanderDitto » 23 Mar 2015, 06:53

"I am a person" works well for people who are privileged to be what people consider the default person. The vast majority of people will assume you're straight (and if they can't see you, male and white). Pretending otherwise is naive. Maybe some day this won't be the case, but right now, it definitely is.

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As for the aromantic/asexual issue: possibly unpopular opinion time: I don't totally know how I feel about this. I think there is push back in the queer community to hetero people entering queer spaces/discussion, because heterosexual people have a history of co-opting them or outright destroying them. There's also that historically asexuality has not been stigmatized in the same way or to the same degree that LGBT people (and people who eschew the gender binary) have.

That doesn't mean, however, that there isn't shared struggle there, or that asexual people don't experience violence or (ugh) "corrective" rape, or that labels aren't meaningful or a space of people sharing their experiences and being supportive isn't necessary or good, or that we shouldn't accept and love people however they want to identify. I guess I just feel like queer people are justified in their caution of being inclusive of people who are "het aro" (I've never heard hetero aromanticism shortened like this, is it a tumblr thing?) when hetero-normative structural oppression is what causes a lot of people to experience violence and oppression, and there are still laws on the books denying LBGT people basic human rights that hetero asexual/hetero aromantic people never have to worry about losing.

I've found that there's a lack of historical context for a lot of these discussions about queer community going on in places like tumblr. Up until something like the last ten years (and largely in progressive online spaces) hetero aromantic/asexual people have never been a major part of the queer rights movement. People didn't even begin to consider it as a thing that could be studied, or something that might be enduring, until like 10 years ago, where as the struggle for LGBT acceptance goes back at least two hundred years and is tied up in all this other messy stuff. So I kind of understand the hesitance.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 23 Mar 2015, 08:05

Ditto: Do you feel the same way about het aces? What originally pissed me off about it so much was thinking of a friend here from the forums (although he's not around so much anymore) who's just about the sweetest person you'll meet being told he's "not queer enough." He might not even want to be allowed into queer spaces, so maybe I'm getting angry over nothing, but I've seen him been repeatedly shutdown for being sex-repulsed and just bluh, you know?

Interestingly enough, I don't know any het aros. Every aro I know is agender. Also most of the aces. But I presume they exist and I don't think they should be shut out automatically? I think it might have to be judged on a case-by-case basis - of course if the person's an asshole they're not getting in - but I just don't think it should be as automatic as they made it out to be.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Lord Chrusher » 23 Mar 2015, 11:49

Elomin Sha, I think there is a powerful human instinct to feel part of a group. For a group to be a useful construct it needs a name Sadly there is also a common tendency to want exclude people from groups, usually for being different.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AlexanderDitto » 23 Mar 2015, 12:34

Fayili wrote:Ditto: Do you feel the same way about het aces? What originally pissed me off about it so much was thinking of a friend here from the forums (although he's not around so much anymore) who's just about the sweetest person you'll meet being told he's "not queer enough." He might not even want to be allowed into queer spaces, so maybe I'm getting angry over nothing, but I've seen him been repeatedly shutdown for being sex-repulsed and just bluh, you know?

Interestingly enough, I don't know any het aros. Every aro I know is agender. Also most of the aces. But I presume they exist and I don't think they should be shut out automatically? I think it might have to be judged on a case-by-case basis - of course if the person's an asshole they're not getting in - but I just don't think it should be as automatic as they made it out to be.


(Edit also I'm going to use queer instead of LGBT because I find it's grammatically less cumbersome. You can sub LGBT if you want.)

I think queer support groups should meet individual's needs as they come to them, and should be inclusive and welcoming on the whole, including to asexual people. I can just understand the hesitance queer people have as to not knowing how to respond to heterosexual people who want to self-describe as queer. Queer spaces have traditionally been welcoming to heterosexual allies anyway; any recent pushback against that has, I think, been in response to "allies" wanting to take a more central role in things, to which the response tends to be "you can come, but this isn't going to be about you," which I think is reasonable. But self-describing as queer or a marginalized orientation when you're, at least in some way heterosexual? When the word queer (and gay/lesbian/homo/other variants) itself was a slur used against anybody who was non-heterosexual less than thirty years ago? That's new and fraught and I don't know how that should be handled. (I don't like "marginalized orientations" at all, because defines people as victims of a system I want dismantled, rather than unique identities.)

I think the idea of being "queer enough" is self-important exclusionary bullshit and is just a way to make people feel more insecure about their identity, and makes me outraged. It's something I've felt numerous times since I finally figured out I was gay. Am I gay enough? Am I a bad gay? Why don't I feel like I fit in with large parts of the gay community? It's all awful, awful cultural conformist garbage that goes against the whole POINT of the LGBT rights movement, which is that you're supposed to feel free to just be yourself. It's why bisexual people experience erasure. It's why trans people in "straight" relationships often get erased too. People policing who is "queer enough" is gross and wrong and makes me want to throw something out a window. And yeah, people who are asexual are going to feel that and need support.

Showing my ignorance, I'm not even sure what it means to be a het ace. Does that imply someone is hetero-romantic? Or just entirely asexual and aromantic? If just asexual and aromantic, would that be the same as homo ace (that... sounds wrong. Hom ace?)? I'm guessing there's no straightforward answer to this question, that it means something different for each person, which is fine! But that also means that groups have to be cautious, since the label doesn't mean the same thing for everyone. It's why I'm fully supportive of trans groups, for example, not prioritizing the inclusion of LGB people: because there are unfortunately lots of lesbian, gay, and bi people who are hella transphobic, and trans people shouldn't feel the need to prioritize the needs of the gay community when they've already got plenty of other things to worry about. Hell, I guess these sorts of spaces have to be cautious to begin with, because there are lots of gay people who deserve to be kicked out of safe spaces. :/ A certain D-list journalist/professional harasser is a good example.

It's a complicated issue! I don't have a good answer. :/ I don't feel like asexual people should be "othered" or shunned, though. Their needs should be met, and I'm glad to see that there are asexual communities starting to come together, (EDIT: and I definitely think LGBT groups/centers should see where overlap exists and work together with them.)
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 23 Mar 2015, 13:12

I wonder why I have a revulsion to anyone using the word privlege.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AlexanderDitto » 23 Mar 2015, 13:36

Elomin Sha wrote:I wonder why I have a revulsion to anyone using the word privlege.


Is this directed at me? I can offer alternative words if you'd rather.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 23 Mar 2015, 13:45

Not direclty, when I was writing something I was using it for something else and it felt like a cope out word/shut down conversation.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AlexanderDitto » 23 Mar 2015, 13:49

Elomin Sha wrote:Not direclty, when I was writing something I was using it for something else and it felt like a cope out word/shut down conversation.


It's not a cop-out word. It's an academic term. It has a meaning. The fact that people in some places have weaponized it on the internet sucks but I don't think there's any good concise alternative.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 23 Mar 2015, 13:52

Delusions of grandeur?
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AlexanderDitto » 23 Mar 2015, 13:54

Elomin Sha wrote:Delusions of grandeur?


Societally supported/encouraged delusions of grandeur, I guess. Though in many cases the advantages conferred aren't delusions, they're very real. Hm. IDK.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Avistew » 23 Mar 2015, 13:59

Heterosexual people are already allowed under the umbrella. Trans hetero people are LGBT, they're the T. I find the discussion of who's "queer enough" a bit uncomfortable because I feel the more people, the better, in order to fight together. On the other hand I also understand it. For instance I'm part of LGBT groups as an ally and have been told that because I'm poly I should probably step back, lest people think I'm trying to be included. Since I never actually made such a request, it's definitely annoying: were I monogamous I'd be welcome as an ally. Still, this is a rare occurrence.

A discussion that has similarity with this one occurred recently on another forum where I'm a member. Some asexual members voiced the fact that in some of the states where same-sex marriage is allowed, their marriages aren't actually recognized due to consummation laws. It sparked a debate ("are those even enforced? Who is going to check? It shouldn't ever be an issue unless one of the partners makes it one") the forum rules prevented people from talking about it longer, although the aces members did state that it was more complicated than that.

I would also say that in my opinion, asexuals are much less represented as an option and therefore much less likely to be freely asexual. It's not even recognized as a noun by my spellchecker. Everywhere, in every piece of media, characters end up having sex with one another or wanting sex with one another. Aces are assumed to have something wrong with them, are sent to doctors and more often than not end up having sex anyways because they're "supposed to".

I'm not trying to play a game of "who has it worse" here, but I think saying that they're not part of the group isn't quite right. They might be less stigmatized, due to being less known, and they might have an easier time "passing", but both are also true of bisexual/pansexual people and nobody (I hope) questions that they do belong. And yes, there is a lot of heteronormativity, but nowadays there is also some same-sex representation, so I would say there is much more allosexual-normativity than there is heteronormativity. As in, even when there is some orientation diversity shown, it's pretty much always of the alloromantic, allosexual variety.

I don't think I have a say in who gets included, but I do worry some of the "no, you can't join" is about wanting to stay "special" and not wanting to share that. Which is what we've all been trying to fight in the first place.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AlexanderDitto » 23 Mar 2015, 14:03

I guess the more I think about it the more confident I am that ace people should NOT be kicked out of inclusive spaces just for being there, but I'm also not sure LGBT groups are going to be the best groups for addressing issues an asexual individual might face, and may in fact be somewhat alienating by their nature of being focused on sexuality and non-hetero-conformism.

Other than that... I just don't know. Fayili, I would be really interested in hearing your thoughts.

Edit holy shit I forgot the NOT in that first sentence jesus christ

Should NOT be kicked out. SHOULD NOT.

Edit edit: also yes when I talk about heterosexual people I'm talking about people who are cis. There are straight trans people and LGBT spaces should be inclusive of them, yes.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 23 Mar 2015, 14:13

(I think you missed a "not" in there.)

I think when you get a lot of queer people together, they do talk about sex a lot, but not always? And it's a very annoying thing that this whole excluding ace people is reinforcing the idea that queerness is about sex. Are trans ace people, who never expect or want people to interact with their genitals, less queer than trans people who are having sex?

Am I less queer for not actively desiring sex with women or genderqueer individuals as much as I tend to desire sex with men?

I think aces get ignored SO MUCH OF THE TIME, especially by larger queer voices, that I want to make sure they're not shut out anymore.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Elomin Sha » 23 Mar 2015, 14:14

AH HA THE LIES HAVE BEEN REVEALED!
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Avistew » 23 Mar 2015, 14:15

Yes, I guess you are also right that an allosexual gay or bi person might not have a huge amount of advice for a het ace/aro, but to be honest I've always wondered what gay men and women had in common (they're different genders who like different genders. Not much overlap here) or what either had in common with a straight trans person. But in the end it's sometimes more about being accepted than getting relevant advice, I guess.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby AlexanderDitto » 23 Mar 2015, 14:16

Fayili wrote:(I think you missed a "not" in there.)

I think when you get a lot of queer people together, they do talk about sex a lot, but not always? And it's a very annoying thing that this whole excluding ace people is reinforcing the idea that queerness is about sex. Are trans ace people, who never expect or want people to interact with their genitals, less queer than trans people who are having sex?

Am I less queer for not actively desiring sex with women or genderqueer individuals as much as I tend to desire sex with men?

I think aces get ignored SO MUCH OF THE TIME, especially by larger queer voices, that I want to make sure they're not shut out anymore.


I just realized I missed the not and OH MY GOODNESS SO EMBARASSED AUGH

Yeah. This is a really good point. A lot of LGBT programming and discussion is focused on sex, and I find that frustrating too! I understand why, of course (because restriction of sexuality is a huge issue and was one of the reasons lgbt movements began) but it's frustrating for people whose lives are less focused on their sexuality.

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