This thread is so gay

[Psyclone]

I MET ANOTHER ACE IN REAL LIFE.

[Timelady]

<3 you guys. And WOOOO, Psyclone!

[Dominic Appleguard]

You guys should hang out and be non-intimate with each other.

[ex-Lurker]

That would actually be great, sadly we all live super far from each other (I think, some of you guys have "not-locations")

[LogicSword]

Yeah, sadly the Atlantic Ocean is a thing

[Timelady]

Yeah. I have no money to travel.

[King Kool]

So today (yesterday, rather) was National Coming Out Day. And there's something I've been wanting to talk about in this topic that I've never figured out how to talk about.

A woman I had a mild crush on in college came out of the closet today. Or if she was out, then this is the first time I've heard it as a definite (I tend to be pretty slow to realize things like this, and I try never to assume unless I hear it straight from the source.)

This is not remotely the first time this has happened.

...

I think I might have a thing for honest-to-God lesbians.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

I'm not sure if I've 'came out' or not.
I know who I am attracted do.
I have no problems stating it to others if I see a reason to. I'm not going to say "I like men and women" to a random bloke on the street (as an example), but I would to someone I've known and I like.

My parents are still unaware of my attraction to The D as well to the C. I still talk about wanting kiddies so they assume I am not thinking about the D.
My sister probably is aware since she caught me looking at topless men on the internet when I was a teenager.

[ex-Lurker]

That's more or less the same situation I'm in, some friends know (or at least I've told them), brother definitely knows. I've dropped some large hints on my Mom, but I'm not sure if she understands.
(By the way, this forum is the first place I've heard "coming out" being applied to asexuals, must just be the scarcity of aces I guess.)

[cuddlyblade]

I'm not sure if I've 'came out' or not.
I know who I am attracted do.
I have no problems stating it to others if I see a reason to. I'm not going to say "I like men and women" to a random bloke on the street (as an example), but I would to someone I've known and I like.

My parents are still unaware of my attraction to The D as well to the C. I still talk about wanting kiddies so they assume I am not thinking about the D.
My sister probably is aware since she caught me looking at topless men on the internet when I was a teenager.

I would very much be in a similar situation to you well except for the getting caught and the talking about having children, can't stand the "things" if it weren't for me getting absolutely smashed a while back and telling them then.

Then again never saw much point in telling people apart from people I liked and wanted to go out with. If it comes up it comes up but I never really saw the point of specifically telling people.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

I do sincerely would like to be a Dad.
But I would be happy to foster/adopt if I married someone of the same sex as me.

[viscomica]

I do sincerely would like to be a Dad.
But I would be happy to foster/adopt if I married someone of the same sex as me.

As an adopted child, I salute you.

[ocelotteranian]

I do sincerely would like to be a Dad.
But I would be happy to foster/adopt if I married someone of the same sex as me.

As an adopted child, I salute you.

I, too, salute you, Merrymaker! It can be extremely hard (at least here in the US, Idk as much about other countries) to adopt or foster as a same-sex couple, but the world needs loving parents regardless of their orientation and I really wish the government would understand that. Sigh.

[Duckay]

I have a strange little story about that, actually. (Mostly it is a story about how I do not pay attention.)

I used to work with kids in foster care, among other things. One day I got a call from the office asking if I could do regular supervised contact shifts between a girl and her biological parents. I was forwarded an email about her family details, including that she was being fostered by a couple named [Female Name] and [Unisex Name That Is Usually Female]. I didn't even think twice about that. I'm not sure I even consciously registered the names, I just took note of the addresses and phone numbers I needed to know and went about my day.

When I dropped the girl off after the first contact visit, one of her foster carers was home, and as it was the first time I'd met her, she asked me to come inside and have a chat. We talked for about forty-five minutes about the client, about Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, about marriage equality, about rights of same-sex couples to foster and adopt, and all kind of things in that vein. It wasn't until I was driving home that I actually realized that the foster carers were a lesbian couple and the woman I was talking to had been trying to suss out whether I had a problem with it. I found out later that another worker in the past did have a problem, and that was why.

Score one for my observation skills. But seriously, I worked with that client for months, and in that time I never noticed a single problem with her foster care arrangement. They were awesome people and I am really upset for them that they've ever had problems with discrimination / judgement.

[ocelotteranian]

Yeah, a good family friend of mine was raised by two wonderful, caring women—it makes my blood boil when I hear some of the bigoted bs she and her moms have had to deal with. >:(

[Ptangmatik]

So today (yesterday, rather) was National Coming Out Day. And there's something I've been wanting to talk about in this topic that I've never figured out how to talk about.

A woman I had a mild crush on in college came out of the closet today. Or if she was out, then this is the first time I've heard it as a definite (I tend to be pretty slow to realize things like this, and I try never to assume unless I hear it straight from the source.)

This is not remotely the first time this has happened.

...

I think I might have a thing for honest-to-God lesbians.

God damn twice this has happened to me, once was my first ever serious crush, we used to sit together in English. Finding out she was gay pretty much crushed me, appropriately enough. We remained friends.

I feel your pain.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

You also have people of the same gender living together who are assumed to be in a relationship.

My great Aunt lives with her best friend. They lived together because they were both equally hurt by horrific divorces. So since they were bestest mates, decided to live in the same house. They build an extension to allow this.
As far as I know they aren't in a relationship.

I guess however if they were both male, people would be more presumptuous.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

People are making mountains out of mole hills that Tom Daley made an online video stating that he is in a relationship with a man; he's bisexual.

Tom Daley won Olympic Gold in Diving last Olympics for Britain.

[AlexanderDitto]

People are making mountains out of mole hills that Tom Daley made an online video stating that he is in a relationship with a man; he's bisexual.

Tom Daley won Olympic Gold in Diving last Olympics for Britain.

The thing people/the media don't seem to be getting: he's not gay. He's not bisexual. He's just in a relationship with a dude. That's it.

He might be bisexual. He might be queer. He might be gay. It doesn't matter! I'm glad he's being met with encouragement and positive attention, but it's very discouraging that everyone is super excited to label him as something, when he clearly didn't choose to label himself.

We've still got a lot of growing up to do as a society.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

What annoys me the most was that someone on my course was bitching about him saying that he made a "stupid video saying he was bisexual".

If you actually listen to the video. Amongst the slow pace you hear the phrases "I didn't want my words to be twisted".

Fair enough. If anyone dares to challenge that, then they are a moron.
Ironically, the homophobic person is one of the most effeminate straight person you could meet. One of those people where homosexual stereotypes could easily apply to him.

Question. If a Bisexual male is in a relationship with another man, is that a "Gay relationship"?
Because I find that implies that a Bisexual person can choose to be "gay or not gay". Instead of a Bisexual person can choose "to be in a relationship with any human being regardless of gender".

[AlexanderDitto]

What annoys me the most was that someone on my course was bitching about him saying that he made a "stupid video saying he was bisexual".

If you actually listen to the video. Amongst the slow pace you hear the phrases "I didn't want my words to be twisted".

Fair enough. If anyone dares to challenge that, then they are a moron.

Question. If a Bisexual male is in a relationship with another man, is that a "Gay relationship"?
Because I find that implies that a Bisexual person can choose to be "gay or not gay". Instead of a Bisexual person can choose "to be in a relationship with any human being regardless of gender".

I'd say the term gay relationship is pretty problematic. Same-sex relationship is more accurate. Same-gender relationship even moreso (since it's inclusive of transpeople in relationships).

[Master Gunner]

As I know someone in a same-gender (technically)opposite-sex relationship...applying labels with that level of specificity really does not handle edge cases very well. And human relationships are full of edge cases.

[Lord Hosk]

I dont think this is the right thread for it but I think its the "best" fit. I didnt want to bring it up here because I fear the knee jerk attack response I have gotten when trying to have a discussion about this with people at school. Which is so incredibly irritating to me because when you have someone asking questions and trying to understand and you attack them for not understanding already how do you expect to ever get anyone to "get it"

As The LGB have become more accepted the T is coming more and more into the spotlight. First I dont see how it fits other than it being "queer" as in unusual.

But the part I dont understand is the apparent conflict in these three points.
1. the specifics of gender and sexuality dont matter, that people are people no matter how they choose to express their desires.

2. that gender isn't a binary function of genitals and biology and that there is a spectrum of gender just as there is a spectrum of sexuality.

3. People may choose to identify as different gender than what their body shows it to be and they shouldnt have to alter themselves surgically to be accepted as the alternate gender.

If gender doesnt matter, why does it matter that is isnt binary? If gender isnt binary how is it that people may choose to identify as the other gender even if their body doesnt show it? and if people can choose to express themselves as any gender they desire, how can you say that gender doesnt matter?

It just feels like these same concepts within the same area of "accepting non traditional gender/sexuality" are fighting each other. This makes it incredibly difficult to understand even for those who want to much less those who dont.

On a fourth related but unrelated subject, I dont get Cross dressing. Im not saying I dont understand people who want to wear certain cloths, I just dont understand why it is a thing, more specifically why its only a thing for men. Men in dresses or skirts are cross dressers, men in dresses and make up are in "drag". so by those stipulations, women in things other than skirts and dresses are cross dressing and women without makeup on are in drag right? No.

[AlexanderDitto]

As I know someone in a same-gender (technically)opposite-sex relationship...applying labels with that level of specificity really does not handle edge cases very well. And human relationships are full of edge cases.

But to me or you or society (unless maybe you're their doctor), it doesn't matter that they're technically opposite-sex; it won't/shouldn't come up. Nobody's going to check their chromosomes and say, "oh, well, opposite-sex, alright then! They can marry." Gender expression is really all that matters in day-to-day cultural interactions; people treat you (for better or worse) based on your gender, not your sex.

Also, the phrase same-gender is no more or less specific than same-sex. They mean different things. Gender is a thing, and sex is another, different thing.

That's not to say same-gender opposite-sex relationships have identical experiences to same-gender same-sex couples. But for the purposes of who Tom Daley is dating, what most people are cooing over is the gender of his partner. Also, "same" and "opposite" gloss over the fact that both sex and gender aren't binaries, and makes them out to be so, so they're both not perfect. You could just say they're in a queer relationship, but that word also has baggage. So: no perfect answer.

I dont think this is the right thread for it but I think its the "best" fit. I didnt want to bring it up here because I fear the knee jerk attack response I have gotten when trying to have a discussion about this with people at school. Which is so incredibly irritating to me because when you have someone asking questions and trying to understand and you attack them for not understanding already how do you expect to ever get anyone to "get it"

It's good that you're trying to understand. That's much appreciated and you should not be attacked for it. You shouldn't begrudge people who attack you for not understanding, though; you have to understand, they likely field questions that are much more hostile than yours, often from people who don't really want to understand, but who just want to get a jab in, or people who want to stay ignorant. If they're trans, or friends with someone who is trans, they may get those questions A LOT. It can get draining.

I'm not trans, so all I can do is offer my understanding of the situation. It may not be 100% on the money. If people know better (especially trans persons/people who are close to trans persons), I would be happy to bow out and let them clarify

Warning: this got long, because I'm trying to be as clear as possible.

As The LGB have become more accepted the T is coming more and more into the spotlight. First I dont see how it fits other than it being "queer" as in unusual.

This question has a complicated answer, and relates to the long, complicated history of the queer rights movement. Long story short: transgendered people have historically been oppressed and persecuted for their gender nonconformance. LGB people have to struggle with perceptions of nonconformance to gender norms too, which is where there's common ground.

If you're not straight, you end up thinking a lot about gender and what it means, because your romantic/sexual relationships end up running up against it. If you're trans, you think about it even more, because your very being runs up against what society thinks about gender. So, commonalities.

But the part I dont understand is the apparent conflict in these three points.
1. the specifics of gender and sexuality dont matter, that people are people no matter how they choose to express their desires.

Depends on what you mean by "don't matter," but I think your point is mostly valid. Gender and sex (which is not the same as sexuality; sex is biological, sexuality is who you do it with/are aroused by/are romantically attracted to/etc etc) shouldn't matter in how you treat a person. That's not to say gender and biological don't exist. People have chromosomes (biological sex) that impact your phenotype to some degree, and various cultures have (for better or worse) developed traditional gender signifiers. Those are real things that exist; they just shouldn't dictate what you can/can't do or how you live your life or how people treat you, so in that sense they "don't matter."

2. that gender isn't a binary function of genitals and biology and that there is a spectrum of gender just as there is a spectrum of sexuality.

Precisely correct. That said, biology and society encourages people to adopt a binary gender, which ends up causing people to cluster around "male" and "female." They're almost entirely constructed, but they're the current reality. It's just not a strict binary.

3. People may choose to identify as different gender than what their body shows it to be and they shouldnt have to alter themselves surgically to be accepted as the alternate gender.

Precisely correct.

If gender doesnt matter, why does it matter that is isnt binary? If gender isnt binary how is it that people may choose to identify as the other gender even if their body doesnt show it? and if people can choose to express themselves as any gender they desire, how can you say that gender doesnt matter?

This is simplifying a bit, but for the purposes of discussion it'll do for now. Think of it this way. Say you have a line. On one end of the line you have "identifies 100% male," and on the other end "identifies 100% female." Inbetween, along all the points on the line, there's a spectrum of possible genders. People can identify as being on any point on that spectrum. Maybe you're biologically XY ("male"), and you've been raised to conform to the male gender, and you feel like you're 99% male. Society has no beef with you! Maybe you feel like you're 75% male, but you like some things that society says are for women only, or you feel less masculine than others in your peer group. You might experience stress or be ostracised for it. Or maybe, despite being biologically male, you FEEL like you should be a woman. You feel like you're 99% female, you conform to that gender, your biology is just wrong. That likely means you're trans. Or maybe you feel like you're 75% female. That still likely means you'd feel trans, and be somewhat uncomfortable with the mismatch between how you feel your biology should be, and what it actually is.

You can feel you identify anywhere along the spectrum. So despite the fact that gender is not a binary, you can choose to identify as somewhere outside the gender that "prescribed" to you by your biology, and if you're far enough away, things start to get tough.

I said I was simplifying, because 1. the endpoints of the line are made up. Though they're linked to biology, there is no "true male" or "true female," those are things we've created as a society, and they vary between cultures, countries, and even neighborhoods, 2. male and female are not diametrically opposed, so it doesn't make sense to place them at opposite ends of a line, and 3. there are thousands of aspects to gender (biological/hormonal, cultural, social), so instead of a line there's really a big multidimensional space.

It just feels like these same concepts within the same area of "accepting non traditional gender/sexuality" are fighting each other. This makes it incredibly difficult to understand even for those who want to much less those who dont.

The tension here comes from the fact that there are some aspects of gender that are biologically linked, and aspects that are not. In an ideal world, any aspect of gender would be open to any person, anyone could identify as however they want, and we'd stop trying to sort everything into gender bins. Due to the prevalence of sex-linked biological traits, there would still be things that tended to be associated with certain genders (beards, to take an extreme example) but a woman would feel comfortable wearing a beard (a la Tolkein's female dwarves), because gender wouldn't be seen as restrictive. You could identify however you like, like whatever you liked, wear whatever you like, and love whomever you like, and it wouldn't "matter," in that you'd be free to do it and it would just be who you are. It matters to you, obviously, because you love the things you love and you feel the way you feel. But it wouldn't "matter" in the sense that it wouldn't cause you to be targeted for violence, or to experience ostracism or feel pain or unhappiness or suffering.

On a fourth related but unrelated subject, I dont get Cross dressing. Im not saying I dont understand people who want to wear certain cloths, I just dont understand why it is a thing, more specifically why its only a thing for men. Men in dresses or skirts are cross dressers, men in dresses and make up are in "drag". so by those stipulations, women in things other than skirts and dresses are cross dressing and women without makeup on are in drag right? No.

And here is a perfect example of why strict gender roles are a problem, and how this all ties into feminism.

The reason cross-dressing is a "thing" for men (and by "thing" you mean something that is ostrasized or ridiculed or at least highlighted by society as being "outside the norm") is because 1. certain items of clothing like dresses and skirts and certain styles of appearance like long hair, eye shadow, and fingernail polish, are "gendered." And (and here's where we need feminism) 2. if you're a man, expressing traits that are gendered as female is considered bad, gross, or a sign of weakness. It's tied into the "men are strong/smart/good, women are weak/dumb/bad" sexist parts of society, which are tied into the weird, twisted things that sometimes get attached to gender.

Women aren't castigated for wearing SOME men's clothing because men are seen as powerful, and a woman wearing a man's clothing is seen by society as someone trying to increase her power or standing. Whereas a man wearing a woman's clothing is seen as a debasement. So some articles of clothing have become "acceptable" for women to wear, but it's never seen as anything other than women aping male gendered clothing and, by extension, attempting to be gendered as male (when in reality it's ridiculous that clothing is gendered at all).

For a perfect example of this, look at how often Janelle Monáe (an R&B singer) has to field people asking her if she's a lesbian because she likes wearing tuxedos.

[Volafortis]

Ditto did a pretty good job, and I agree, if you're legitimately asking these questions because you want to know, they aren't rude or insulting, it can be damn difficult to understand. Just understand that a lot of trans people are defensive by nature, if only because they need to be. Society is not very welcoming for the trans community.

1. the specifics of gender and sexuality dont matter, that people are people no matter how they choose to express their desires.

This is basically stating that any activity or "thing you do" is only gendered because society has assigned it to a particular gender. Anybody can want to do anything; what that is doesn't necessarily pigeon hole them into the gender that is typical for what it is.

2. that gender isn't a binary function of genitals and biology and that there is a spectrum of gender just as there is a spectrum of sexuality.

Since any occupation or activity or "thing to do" can be something anybody wants to do, the concept of a "gender spectrum" sort of falls naturally into line with it. It is, at its core, simply a way to acknowledge that everything that everyone wants doesn't always line up exclusively with what is gender typical.

3. People may choose to identify as different gender than what their body shows it to be and they shouldnt have to alter themselves surgically to be accepted as the alternate gender.

If gender doesnt matter, why does it matter that is isnt binary? If gender isnt binary how is it that people may choose to identify as the other gender even if their body doesnt show it? and if people can choose to express themselves as any gender they desire, how can you say that gender doesnt matter?

Lets make up a character: Let's say a man is highly effeminate, when asked of his interests, he almost exclusively lines up with female-typical interests. He still may feel exclusively like a man, though, because those interests do not define who he is at his core; they are simply what they are- things that he does.

When people wish to present as the alternate gender, it is that core, fundamental piece of self that doesn't line up, rather than simple societal interests, and that is what can be difficult to grasp. Most people don't wake up every morning and acknowledge that they feel whatever gender that they are, it's simply a part of who they are, and all is well. For trans people, it is this simple key piece of being that is wrong, they feel as if they don't belong in the body they have. It's hard to explain, because if you've never felt it, it's sort of like trying to explain color to someone who has never seen it. It's something you acknowledge naturally without needing to acknowledge it, and for most trans people, that's whats off.

That said, there are people who don't feel like they line up with "man" or "woman" and that were the whole spectrum of being queer becomes more of a thing. Just like how most men and women are perfectly fine with the binary "man/woman" labels, so are most trans people. That doesn't mean that it's how everybody feels like they fit into one of those two binary options.

It just feels like these same concepts within the same area of "accepting non traditional gender/sexuality" are fighting each other. This makes it incredibly difficult to understand even for those who want to much less those who dont.

It is confusing, and that's why it takes a lot of trans people so long to come to terms with who they are. Most of them need to figure this stuff out about themself without anybody explaining it to them.

On a fourth related but unrelated subject, I dont get Cross dressing. Im not saying I dont understand people who want to wear certain cloths, I just dont understand why it is a thing, more specifically why its only a thing for men. Men in dresses or skirts are cross dressers, men in dresses and make up are in "drag". so by those stipulations, women in things other than skirts and dresses are cross dressing and women without makeup on are in drag right? No.

I thing this actually touches more so on sexism, since basically exactly like Ditto said, it's considered more acceptable to want to appear male (powerful, apparently).

Hopefully our explanations have cleared it up a bit.