This thread is so gay

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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby thadivilhimsewf » 05 Jul 2010, 20:27

Cybren wrote:No uh, snobbish was assuming I haven't been to college (I have)

I just didn't understand what you wanted to discuss.


I don't remember making any assumptions either way. I was just explaining the joke, and admitting that a number of people won't get it.

I meant this as a general-purpose gay thread, since people have been saying that one would be nice, but with the silly and indirect opening post, people seem to be taking it as a thread for discussing gay social issues. That's fine by me, though the ones who wanted a more general gay thread are still without one, and this one will probably die since people usually either don't like social issues or can't discuss them civilly.

Cybren wrote:Query:

Is "pegging" a gay sex act?


*shrug* Some would read it that way and some wouldn't. I'm not trying to make pigeonholes for people. The opposite, actually.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Cybren » 05 Jul 2010, 20:30

But you seemed to be doing that earlier:
Like I was saying to Bananafish, people often refuse to see their own behaviors if those behaviors don't fit with their identities. That's what I'm on about.


Emphasis mine.

That doesn't appear to be trying not to pidgeonhole people.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby thadivilhimsewf » 05 Jul 2010, 20:32

Cybren wrote:But you seemed to be doing that earlier:
Like I was saying to Bananafish, people often refuse to see their own behaviors if those behaviors don't fit with their identities. That's what I'm on about.


Emphasis mine.

That doesn't appear to be trying not to pidgeonhole people.


I don't see your logic, unless you're assuming that identities don't have to have anything to do with behaviors, at which point I am global dictator for life.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Cybren » 05 Jul 2010, 20:36

You're claiming in one breath that people "refuse to see their own behaviors", and in another, that you don't want to make judgments on peoples sexuality. There seems to be a contradiction in play.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Matt » 05 Jul 2010, 20:48

Cybren wrote:You're claiming in one breath that people "refuse to see their own behaviors", and in another, that you don't want to make judgments on peoples sexuality. There seems to be a contradiction in play.


/facepalm

you know you are able to make relatively general statements about human psychology while attempting not to categorize people based on specific sexual behaviors, right?

These things are not at all contradictory.

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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby thadivilhimsewf » 05 Jul 2010, 20:49

I didn't say I didn't want to make judgments, only that I didn't want to pigeonhole. Identities do connect to behaviors, it's just that it's not a simple connection. Identities aren't airtight, but people treat them as if they are, i.e. straight-identified guys do things that, by their own definitions, would make them gay, or at least not-straight. And then they don't let themselves see it in order to avoid the identity crisis.

People do things like that all the time, it's how they avoid seeing the oppression they're complicit in. I judge them in the sense that I want them to see the contradictions in their behavior so they can take responsibility for themselves.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Whitmore » 05 Jul 2010, 20:52

Why is it snobbish to assume you might not have been to college?
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Bananafish » 05 Jul 2010, 22:02

thadivilhimsewf wrote:Like I was saying to Bananafish, people often refuse to see their own behaviors if those behaviors don't fit with their identities. That's what I'm on about.


Here's a p good documentary on prison rape called Turned Out: Sexual Assault Behind Bars

I'm not sure if it was in the documentary or not but I recall something along the lines of the rapist calling the victim gay because he allowed himself to be raped, and the rapist didn't see himself as being gay but that he was just asserting his power.

Some prison rapists are so ignorant or delusional, they imagine the rape victim to be the homosexual—because he's doing the taking, not dishing it out (he's gay! he's performing a homosexual act!)
— J.J., California, 9/6/96


Smaller, weaker, meeker individuals are usually targets. Meeker individuals tend to "act Gay" is how it's described here and in turn invites assault through the agressors mind. A new inmate needs to come into the system ready to fight and with a strong mind. He will be approached by a bigger guy who will let him know he's going to "fight, fuck or pay protection." . . . . He will offer the new comer wire (for a radio antena) coffee or something so the new comer will come back and the subject will come up every time the new comer comes around and before long the new comer wants to know what the deal is. They go to a job or fall off in a cell agree to be easy, keep it between them, just do each other, ect. When the dude get's the new comer it's over and the dude will tell the new comer he'll take care of him or he'll tell everybody he's just a little bitch . . . . Should the new comer seek assistance of staff, staff just laughs at him, the physic department just says what do you want me to do. It's a no win situation and frustration often leads them to keep up the practice.
— R.B., Texas, 10/13/96


Defendant J.M, a security officer with the rank of sargeant, came to investigate the series of latest allegations. Defendant J.M. refused to interview the inmate witnesses and told plaintiff that he was lying about being sexually abused. After plaintiff vehemently protested that he was being truthful, defendant J.M. made comments that plaintiff "must be gay" for "letting them make you suck dick."
— S.H., Texas, 9/10/96 (legal papers)


From a Human Rights Watch report

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/voices.html

Rape is really just another leverage tool in prison, the common tactic is to get someone in debt to you- give them protection, food, etc, and then ask them for a favor. They'll either feel to scared to decline or they'll be far too grateful that you've helped them, this can lead to rape. It may look consensual to guards since there's no struggling or violence but that's usually either the prisoner being too scared or having just given up and accepting it. This is why I can understand rapists being able to say they're not gay, it's a different world where rape is often used as a tool or weapon. I guess what I'm laboriously getting at is that 'gayness' seems to mainly be a social construct that varies culturally and environmentally, men in the U.S may, for instance, see two men holding hands or kissing each other's cheeks as being gay even if it's culturally acceptable or polite to do. I hope this made sense to read
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Bananafish » 05 Jul 2010, 22:05

Gays are targeted as are meek, mild-mannered individuals. The general assumption is that since we are gay, we don't mind being raped, The staff pretty much thinks the same thing.
—P.E., Illinois, 10/28/96


The theory is that you are not gay or bisexual as long as YOU yourself do not allow another man to stick his penis into your mouth or anal passage. If you do the sticking, you can still consider yourself to be a macho man/heterosexual, according to their theory. This is a pretty universal/widespread theory.
— P.E., Illinois, 10/28/96


etc;

edit:

A male con maintains his sense of masculinity by forcing himself on another male, because the victim is reduced to a punk, "pussy," or coward by not preventing it.
— A.P., Kansas, 11/4/96


I forgot about this one, and it just reminded me that apart from being a weapon, the act of rape demeans another person and in turn can boost the self esteem of the rapist. This system of 'turning people out' really relies heavily on really typical notions of 'manliness' such as "If I can humiliate another man then I'm a bigger man"
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby cathou » 05 Jul 2010, 22:09

but gay acts in prison cannot really be considered. there's a whole world of difference between been gay, and have gay sex.

the guy who is raped in prison may perform gay sex, but it doesnt mean he will be sexually aroused by that, nor that he will be able to develop a love bond with another guy...
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Bananafish » 05 Jul 2010, 22:13

cathou wrote:but gay acts in prison cannot really be considered. there's a whole world of difference between been gay, and have gay sex.

the guy who is raped in prison may perform gay sex, but it doesnt mean he will be sexually aroused by that, nor that he will be able to develop a love bond with another guy...


You're right. Being raped doesn't make you gay, but the other prisoners define it that way which means that to them you are gay, a sissy, etc. I'm not saying that they are gay but within the social construct of a prison they are seen that way, is that clearer?
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby thadivilhimsewf » 05 Jul 2010, 22:50

Bananafish wrote:I guess what I'm laboriously getting at is that 'gayness' seems to mainly be a social construct that varies culturally and environmentally, men in the U.S may, for instance, see two men holding hands or kissing each other's cheeks as being gay even if it's culturally acceptable or polite to do. I hope this made sense to read


It made sense. I see how identities are constructed--I thought I made that clear but you and Cybren keep pointing it out so I guess I didn't get that part across. Yes, gayness and straightness are imagined--they've meant different things, in most times and places they didn't exist, etc.

My point is that people will avoid responsibility for behaviors they don't identify with, even though they imagined the identity in the first place. Deciding that the man you raped is gay because you raped him is an example of that. So is Obama saying America doesn't torture. The statement is observably false, to the degree to which it means anything. If someone says they don't identify with a behavior ("that's not really me,") that doesn't take away any of their responsibility for it.

I'm familiar with the wild postmodern talk about how we all get to be Lady Gaga--imagine an identity and that's what you are, there is no reality underneath the image. It's just that I think that talk is satire. It describes the narcissistic attitudes that imperial cultures have, but it doesn't describe the physical reality that we have to live with.

The less power you have, the less you get to be whatever you want. But the way to get a cushy and influential academic job (or entertainment job, or journalism job,) is to tell people that they can be whatever they want, not that they can't escape responsibility for their actions.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby JustAName » 06 Jul 2010, 00:47

thadivilhimsewf wrote:
JustAName wrote:Perhaps it's because of where I live, but lesbians can be anyone and you can kiss or do more than that with a girl and not be seen as a lesbian instantly or even at all... Most girls I know who fancy girls (I'm not sure I know any out-and-out lesbians; most are bi or identify as queer or questioning) are pretty, bubbly, and while concerned about their appearance are not conformist to fashion norms.


It's interesting how women are getting that option to fool around with women and it's no big deal--while guys are still mostly a faggot for life if we do anything with a guy (though most of us still do, early on or in all-male environments.)

I think it's about different oppressions intersecting: women getting it on is a male fantasy, so it's allowed. Guys fooling around with each other is too far from the fake, action-movie images of powerful men, so admitting to it brings a loss of status. What do you think?


Well, I know a lot of guys and trans people who are out as well; a lot of this comes from the fact that I live in the Bay Area. As to the second paragraph, though, I think that guys getting it on is a fantasy to a lot of girls I know, so that's not the entire reason. I think that the female body has been sexualized in today's culture a lot more than the male body; used to sell things in commercials or just generally accepted to be a symbol of sex, so it's more acceptable in general. It's late so I'm kind of just spewing this, and half of what I'm typing sounds like bullshit to even me, but these are thoughts that I am having. ... Yeah...
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby aeric90 » 06 Jul 2010, 06:02

This is not nearly as fun a thread as I had anticipated...

We tend to forget that for as much progress we've made as a society we are still techincally under a form of religious partiarchy. The majority of men prefer women, predominently fantasize about 2 women together (noting that it is the straight male ideal woman involved not the actual lesbian norm or ideal), and drive the general cultural acceptance of the female image. Lets face it, if most American men prefered full figured women, that's what we'd see in ads and that's what magazines would 'tell' women to be.

As for the gay thing, it hypocritically stands out as the Old Testament 'abomination' that still remains despite the success of Red Lobster and as long as the majority male population feels uncomfortable with their sexuality it will remain the security blanket they cling to.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Dubious_wolf » 06 Jul 2010, 06:39

Wow this thread is into some heavy issues. I wonder, why does religion condemn acts of homosexuality? Why is it that secularism sees homosexuality as inherently evil, when many other cultures saw this as being a positive thing? (I seem to remember reading something explaining that some native American tribes saw the homosexual as mystics or sone such. Verification?)
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby aeric90 » 06 Jul 2010, 06:49

Religion was often established to enforce rules and laws of society when authorities were a bit nebulous. God being much scarier than Omar the Fine Assesor.

So if a particular food is causing disentary then it's easy to ban it.

If your population is dwindling and your men are too busy f-bombing the livestock and each other than put it in the book.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby theDreamer » 06 Jul 2010, 06:55

The Jews didn't like homosexuality because God said so.

(Possible reasons include: unclean [IIRC the torah implies only vaginal sex is allowed, and you can't exactly have vaginal sex with someone lacking a vagina], common[everyone was doing it, so the Chosen People shouldn't])

Because the Jews did it, so did Christians. And thus Muslims. And thus Sikhs.

Those are the only big ones I know of that take offense to homosexuality.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Metcarfre » 06 Jul 2010, 06:56

Man, I wish they would make f-bombing illegal.

But are you swearing at livestock?
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Dubious_wolf » 06 Jul 2010, 06:58

I've become a proponent of the idea that religion is made by people to control people. I had figured out that kosher law makes sense from a health stand point. I can understand why population decrease could lead to the ban on all forms of sex other than man and woman. (still don't understand the appeal of bestiality though...)
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby aeric90 » 06 Jul 2010, 07:04

Dubious_wolf wrote:I've become a proponent of the idea that religion is made by people to control people. I had figured out that kosher law makes sense from a health stand point. I can understand why population decrease could lead to the ban on all forms of sex other than man and woman. (still don't understand the appeal of bestiality though...)


There's some evidence (somewhat inconclusive) to suggest that in the 12th or 13th century the Catholic church 'retranslated' certain passages condeming homosexuality to emphasize them while the Crusades were going on, attempting to shore up the population of the Holy Roman Empire while much of the men were fighting and dying. Sorry I can't remember the source of this. It was a documentary on the possibility of a historical Robin Hood. One segment dealt with the possibility that he was gay.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby theDreamer » 06 Jul 2010, 07:10

I really don't know how they could retranslate anything.

Old Testament is pretty clear.

You sleep with another dude, the whole town kills you.

Then again, the Old Testament _also_ says that if a woman is raped in a city, she is to be put to death, because clearly that meant she enjoyed it, otherwise someone should have heard her cries for help and saved her.
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Master Gunner » 06 Jul 2010, 07:40

Simple, the Old Testament was originally written in the local Hebrew languages over the hundreds of years it was constructed over. As time went on it would have being retranslated into the modern tongue to keep things simple when they made new copies. A few hundred years before Christ, Jewish scholars translated it into Greek. The Greek version formed the basis of Orthodox and Eastern versions of the Old Testament, while the Latin translations Vetus Latina and later Jerome's Vulgate formed the basis of Western Christianity. The Vulgate (commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382) was the first definitive text and became the most widely used (and official) version in the Roman Catholic Chruch. Previous versions of the Bible and Old Testament were largely just collections of manuscripts (many related and bound together, but still with large stylistic and linguistical differences between them).

Remember, this was way, WAY, before the printing press. Only Nobility and the Clergy would have copies of the Bible, which makes it very easy to do a recall and "update" them. Especially before the all of the splinter groups/religions started up like we have today.

So say a particular Pope (or scholar) along the line early on really didn't like the idea of two dudes going at it for whatever reason. Easy enough to make sure that on all future versions (which would simply be copied from the previous version) would include a passage explicitly forbidding it, in the name of "clarification".
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby thadivilhimsewf » 06 Jul 2010, 10:24

aeric90 wrote:This is not nearly as fun a thread as I had anticipated...


Can ... can I discover yourself?

Could you bring your rugby team?
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby Cybren » 06 Jul 2010, 10:27

Matt wrote:
Cybren wrote:You're claiming in one breath that people "refuse to see their own behaviors", and in another, that you don't want to make judgments on peoples sexuality. There seems to be a contradiction in play.


/facepalm

you know you are able to make relatively general statements about human psychology while attempting not to categorize people based on specific sexual behaviors, right?

These things are not at all contradictory.

-m


Except he was stating that some people were in self denial (refusing to whatever blah blah) because they perform specific acts, but then didn't wish to categorize any act later because he doesn't want to pigeonhole people for them.

If you do not see a dissonance you are a forgurgo
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Re: This thread is so gay

Postby aeric90 » 06 Jul 2010, 10:59

thadivilhimsewf wrote:
aeric90 wrote:This is not nearly as fun a thread as I had anticipated...


Can ... can I discover yourself?

Could you bring your rugby team?


I'm pretty sure visiting something after it's already been discovered is called a vacation.

Your follow-up request would also likely not be as fun as you anticipate.
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