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King Kool
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 03 Jan 2015, 18:31

Let's not change too many pages until we get all the details and the nomenclature hammered out.

EDIT: My On This Day experiment isn't working. I think I'm going to try getting it working the hard way for now.

EDIT2: I can't delete my test pages because I'm not an admin, not that it's that important. I don't want to change my own user settings on the wiki, since I figure that'd be inappropriate. Chrusher, would you do that for me?
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Lord Chrusher » 03 Jan 2015, 22:18

I have added you to the Admin group KingKool.

I agree with the idea that we should get everything figured out before we start switching everything over to SemanticWiki but I think Phailhaus is a good testbed. It is a relatively small and straight forward series that is no longer updating.

I would like to help with the SemanticWiki stuff but this is a busy couple weeks for me.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 03 Jan 2015, 22:31

That's sort of what I was thinking, too. Phailhaus is the smallest sandbox to muck around in.

Also, thank you, Chrusher.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Silverfish » 04 Jan 2015, 04:39

Lord Crusher, King Kool, that's more or less why I chose Phailhaus, as it's short, it's finished, and there are only a few relevant properties, but they are ones we will be using for almost every Video. Also, we get something useful out of it, a more detailed list of episodes, and we can create the filmographies. I'm planning on working through the other episodes, unless anyone objects, as they are quite quick to do.

By the way, the Phailhaus episodes on the wiki have Graham credited as Editor, Writer and Camera, but only some of the episodes have a Editor credit on the LRR site, and none of the ones I've looked at have separate Camera and Writer credits. My assumption is that Graham tends to be the editor, but I'm not sure if Camera and Writer are meaningful. My understanding is that at least on Feed Dump, and I assume Phailhaus, the writing is essential improvising "in the room", then refining and reshooting, getting props, etc, so the writers would just be the people in the video, so we don't need a separate writing credit for them. Also, there doesn't seem to be much camerawork in Phailhaus, it usually seems to be static most of the time, so I wonder whether the camera credit is useful.

If I'm right, I think we should remove the writers and camera credit on Phailhaus pages, and turn edited by into a property.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 04 Jan 2015, 11:49

Here's a question: can we have an Ask bring up the opposite value of a question. For instance, almost every Feed Dump takes place in the Moonbase Mk. III. But what if we asked a question like: Ask {{Category:Feed Dump}} {{Location::-Moonbase}} to summon all the Feed Dumps that DON'T take place in the Moonbase?

See, I'm thinking for things like that, Graham's filmography will be pretty big, so for Unskippable, it could just say "Graham has appeared in every episode of Unskippable. For the list, go the [[Unskippable Episodes]]." And for things he's been in a lot, it could say, "Graham appeared in every Phailhaus except (the one with Matt). For the full list, click here." Or something like that.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Lord Chrusher » 04 Jan 2015, 12:25

What about breaking Graham's filmography into multiple pages? I do not have much of an issue with a few of the filmographies being massive.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 04 Jan 2015, 14:48

Or having it that Seasons could be hidden, like with the Collapse tag on the forums.

Season 6:
Click to Expand
Season 6 By Graham, bla bla


Is there such a thing for the wiki?
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 04 Jan 2015, 15:34

http://wiki.loadingreadyrun.com/index.php?title=Template:VitalStatisticsTesting

I'm giving the OnThisDay a break for a bit to work on this. The Vital Statistics are in every video page, in varying qualities. It's the whole "Category" "Appearing" "Sound" Etc. part. I remember ages ago, there was a page to make this a template that would be transculded into each video page. Now with the Semantic Wiki, there's a great reason to do it.

One line looks like this.

Code: Select all

{{#if: {{{Writing|}}} |'''Writing:''' [[Writing::{{{Writing}}}]] <BR><BR>| }}


It asks, "Is there a "Writing" thing written into the code. The | after the first {{{Writing}}} means it won't appear if it's not used (I think). The second line is, "OK, if it's there, write this out."

It starts with the bold Writing: and then followed by a link to the name of the writer. The :: takes the name put in under "Writing" as the "Writing" credit for this video, for the sake of filmographies. Then, two <BR>'s makes a space between this and the other credits. The last | is the "If this isn't there, then do this," which in this case, is blank because we don't want anything to appear if there is no writing credit.

Problems with it right now: the hardcoded link around the Writing::thing means it only works with one person credited so far, because it will treat many names as one big link. I know there's a way to get around it. In fact, I think Silverfish is working on it with his thing, depending on how many people are credited.

My question is: how many different things are listed under the vital statistics? Off the top of my head, I can think of.

Date:
Category:
Appearing:
Camera:
Editing:
Location:
Music:
Sound:
Boom (in all its forms, this one might be tricky):
Thanks to:
Special Thanks:
Executive Producers:

Really unique ones, like "Cigarettes Lit By:" could be coded down at the bottom one, or have a "custom" one coded in, maybe.

We could have special Vitals for Unskippable and CheckPoint, if we didn't want to make this one very toolboxy.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Silverfish » 04 Jan 2015, 18:44

It seems the way to the collapseable thing for tables is to use format = table, and class = sortable wikitable smwtable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed

sortable wikitable smwtable are the defaults, mw-collapsible makes the table collapsible, and mw-collapsed makes it default to collapsed. My query testing page table for Phailhaus (the second table), demonstrates this: http://wiki.loadingreadyrun.com/index.php?title=User:Silverfish/Query_Testing_Page

This page might be useful: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Collapsible_elements

It says to add the class "mw-collapsible" to any element (div, table, list, anything) to trigger collapsing. I don't think that covers sections, but it seems you could do most of what you want to do.

As for the template idea, my solution to the multiple credits idea works well if you have a single template per credit, but I don't know if it would work for multiple credits in one large template. I have implimented a solution for AppearanceBy, which could work for Location as well. If you look at Phailhaus 3, the template is {{AppearanceByWithFormatting|Graham Stark|Kathleen De Vere}}, and inside the template is

Code: Select all

'''Appearing:''' [[AppearanceBy::{{{1}}}]]{{#if: {{{2|}}} |, [[AppearanceBy::{{{2}}}]]|}}{{#if: {{{3|}}} |, [[AppearanceBy::{{{3}}}]]|}}{{#if: {{{4|}}} |, [[AppearanceBy::{{{4}}}]]|}}
. It uses positional arguments, and always includes the first element, and for any other elements (up to 4), it includes a comma, then the element. It seems if you have a template for multiple credits you get the Appearing one appearing as

Code: Select all

{{AppearanceByWithFormatting|Appearance1 = Graham Stark|Appearance2 = Kathleen De Vere}}


It seems like that could become rather cumbersome. Also, the template would have to able to cope with adding annotations. For example, one of the Phailhaus credits (episode 7) is for "A bit of Matt". In that case, you can just use the AppearanceBy template that doesn't include the formatting, just the semantic wiki bit, and include the "A bit of" as ordinary text. Similarly, Nuntastic has a thanks to Lindsay Burnett for the bear suit. It seems like having separate templates for each individual credit would be easier, and more flexible than a large template to cover them all at once, and any annotations.

One that could be really difficult for the big template is "Narrated By" for Save Our Games. That's an appearance, so needs an appearance credit, but is listed separately in the credits. With separate templates for each credit that would be '''Narrated By:''' {{AppearanceBy|Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw}}, and you could easily slot it in where you like on the credits list, so it's directly under the other appearances.

I think at the least, it would be worth going through a good number of pages (starting with Phailhaus), with the individual templates, and then seeing what sorts of things they have to deal with, before coding up a single template for all episodes of a series.

All that said, a single template for some series that are very standardised might work very well. Unskippable could almost have a single template with no parameters for almost every week.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby mtvcdm » 04 Jan 2015, 22:22

So let's say someone, perhaps me, went and cobbled together in a Notepad file the appearance and combo counts of all the Feed Dumps so far (though not the specific episodes therein), as the Feed Dumps Sorted By Host page hasn't been updated in forever and still assumes Kathleen hosting is the exception rather than the rule it has now become.

Let's also assume that I don't exactly trust myself to edit the page properly to the desired effect.

In lieu of that, I'd like to just hand over the stats, current as of [updated] UK Tourism Edition, and count on someone being able to make it work better than I can.

Hosting combos:

Click to Expand
GRAHAM:
Alex/Amy R 1
Alex/Andrew C 1
Alex/Ash 1
Alex/Cameron 3
Alex/James 2
Alex/Jeremy 2
Alex/Kate 2
Alex/Kathleen 12
Alex/Matt 3
Alex/Paul 4
Amy F/Erika 1
Andrew C/Jeremy 1
Andrew C/Kate 1
Andrew C/Kathleen 4
Ash/Beej 1
Ash/Cameron 1
Ash/Chris 1
Ash/Curtis 1
Ash/James 1
Ash/Kathleen 3
Ash/Paul 2
Ashton/Kathleen 1
Beej/Cameron 2
Beej/Kate 4
Beej/Kathleen 4
Beej/Maya 1
Beej/Paul 1
Beej/Serge 1
Brad/Kathleen 1
Cameron/Kate 1
Cameron/Kathleen 10
Cameron/Maya 1
Cameron/Paul 5
Cameron/Tally 3
Cori/Ian 1
James/Kathleen 1
James/Matt 1
James/Paul 9
Jeremy/Paul 3
Jeremy/Tally 1
Johnny/Paul 1
Kate/Kathleen 2
Kate/Matt 1
Kate/Paul 2
Kate/Tally 1
Kathleen/Matt 1
Kathleen/Maya 1
Kathleen/Missie 1
Kathleen/Paul 13
Kathleen/Serge 1
Kathleen/Tally 2
Matt/Paul 2
Paul/Tally 1

Adam/Kathleen/Lindsey 1
Alex/Cameron/Kathleen 1
Alex/James/Kathleen 1
Alex/Kathleen/LeeLee 1
Brad/Kathleen/Morgan 1
Cameron/Kathleen/Marc 1
Cameron/LeeLee/Matt 1
James/Kathleen/Paul 1

Andrew C/Beej/Cameron/Kathleen/LeeLee 1
James/Kathleen/LeeLee/Matt/Paul 1

Alex/Cameron/James/Jeremy/Kathleen/Tally 1

Alex/Andrew C/Beej/Cameron/James/Jeremy/Kate/Kathleen/Paul/Tally 1

Alex 1
Kathleen 1

Self-hosted 1

KATHLEEN:
Alex/Andrew C 1
Alex/Beej 1
Alex/Cameron 3
Alex/Graham 1
Alex/Ian 1
Alex/Kate 1
Alex/Paul 1
Alex/Serge 3
Andrew C/Ash 1
Andrew C/Beej 1
Andrew F/Beej 1
Andrew F/Cameron 1
Ash/Beej 1
Ash/Cameron 2
Ash/Graham 2
Ash/Ian 2
Ash/Paul 1
Ash/Serge 1
Ash/Tally 2
Beej/Cameron 4
Beej/Heather 1
Beej/Ian 2
Beej/Kate 2
Beej/Matt 1
Beej/Paul 1
Beej/Serge 2
Beej/Tally 1
Cameron/Ian 1
Cameron/Paul 5
Cameron/Serge 1
Cameron/Tally 1
Graham/Ian 1
Graham/Paul 1
Graham/Tally 1
Matt/Paul 1
Paul/Serge 2

Alex/Ash/Cameron 1
Alex/Johnny/Kate 1
Andrew F/Cameron/LeeLee 1
Cameron/Graham/Ian 1

Andrew F/Cameron/Ian/LeeLee 1

Alex/Beej/Cameron/Cori/Graham/Heather/Ian 1

CAMERON:
Beej/Paul 1

JAMES:
Alex/Jeremy 1

KATE:
Kathleen/LeeLee 1

PAUL:
Alex/James 1


10 most common combos (exact combos only):

Click to Expand
Graham/Kathleen/Paul: 13 (+1 Kathleen/Graham/Paul)
Graham/Alex/Kathleen: 12 (+1 Kathleen/Alex/Graham)
Graham/Cameron/Kathleen: 10
Graham/James/Paul: 9
Graham/Cameron/Paul: 5
Kathleen/Cameron/Paul: 5
Graham/Alex/Paul: 4
Graham/Andrew C/Kathleen: 4
Graham/Beej/Kathleen: 4
Graham/Beej/Kate: 4
Kathleen/Beej/Cameron: 4
Graham/Ash/Kathleen: 3 (+1 Kathleen/Ash/Graham)

There are several other combos occurring three times, but Graham/Ash/Kathleen is the only one appearing alternately a fourth time with someone else in the host chair.


Individual appearance count:

Click to Expand
Graham Stark 151
Kathleen De Vere 131
Paul Saunders 60
Cameron Lauder 55
Alex Steacy 55
Brendan "Beej" Dery 36
Ash Vickers 23
James Turner 21
Kate Stark 20
Tally Heilke 15
Matt Wiggins 12
Andrew Cownden 12
Ian Horner 11
Jeremy Petter 10
Serge Yager 10
LeeLee Scaldaferri 7
Andrew Ferguson 4
Maya/Felix Kramer 3
Brad Kirkland 2
Heather Dery 2
Cori Dickenson 2
Adam Hancock 1
Amy T. Falcone 1
Amy Robinson 1
Ashton Cummings 1
Chris Avellone 1
Curtis Arnott 1
Erika Moen 1
Johnny Blakeborough 1
Lindsey Burnett 1
Marc Watson 1
Missie Peters 1
Morgan vanHumbeck 1


[Edited to fix an error in Kate's appearance count.]
Last edited by mtvcdm on 17 Jun 2015, 09:52, edited 22 times in total.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Silverfish » 05 Jan 2015, 13:29

That's interesting mtvcdm. I've posted a link back here on the Feed Dumps Sort By Host talk page as a reference, so it doesn't get lost. I might add them to the article after I've finished with Phailhaus, unless someone else wants to do it.

On phailhaus, I have done up to 20. The first 19 took about 40 minutes, so it's fairly fast to tag the articles. There were a few where I had to add annotations. One was Adam who was uncredited, one was "a bit of Matt", and episode 20 required a change to the AppearanceBy template, so I could change the text of the links. Paul and Matt were credited as "No One Else", as the gag is that they appear at times during the episode.

For some reason, the pages aren't appearing on my ask query, on my test page. I assume this is a caching issue, but the first 3 episodes seemed to turn up immediately. In theory all Phailhaus episodes should be included anyway.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby mtvcdm » 05 Jan 2015, 18:39

I'll make sure to keep that post updated then. (Should anyone catch an error on it, be sure to let me know.)
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Silverfish » 06 Jan 2015, 08:21

Perhaps it would be best to put the list on the talk page, then it should be easier to find.

In other news, I've done a first pass on Phailhaus, adding the semantic data (just air date, location, and appearing), based on what was present on the article. However, some of them don't have the location, and we might need to create articles for some of the locations. Also, it seems other people are credited with editing and shooting at time, so it would be worth including editing and shooting credits. I still think writing credits aren't relevant. Also, not all episodes have specific credits, some are just Appearance, Etc. I think we should assume Graham as editor and camera unless otherwise stated, and remove the writing credits. Any comments?
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 06 Jan 2015, 11:59

Camera and writing aren't relevant to Phailhaus, but I don't know if they appear in the credits of any of them on the video page itself.

A few thoughts on this:

I think the date thing should be called "ReleaseDate" rather than AirDate. I think that's clearer. Furthermore, I don't see why "WithFormatting" has to be in the title.

I also think we should redesign all the navbars to be foolproof, even with series that are complete like Phailhaus. I don't know if the navbar would be able to provide any interesting semantic data, but that's a possibility.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Silverfish » 06 Jan 2015, 13:50

I'll remove Camera and Writing for Phailhaus. Some of the wiki pages list them, but I don't think I saw Writing on any of the pages on the LRR site, and only camera (or shooting), on episode 27. I'll check on my second pass. Should I just assume Graham was the editor, unless otherwise stated?

ReleaseDate would make sense. I'll change it when I next work on things.

The reason for having "With Formatting" in the title, is that for each of the properties I have two templates. {{AppearanceBy}}, for example, just tags a property with a single person, but {{AppearanceByWithFormatting}} also handles the '''Appearing''' header, and tags multiple people, with commas in between. Most articles should use the WithFormatting version, but some might need the other version. Look at Phailhaus 20, where I use the WithFormatting for the first three credits, and the other version to cover Matt and Paul, as they are credited as No One Else. We might not need both for ReleaseDate or Location, but I think we do for AppearanceBy. The Location templates don't currently cover multiple locations, but they will once we get to episodes that need it.

I think the navbars could provide at least some semantic data. We should probably have any of the urls (so we can link directly to the video, or discussion forums, on lists of articles). The next and previous articles aren't really useful apart from on the page itself, but if we include the episode number of each episode we might be able to find the next and previous episode automatically. That is probably more useful once we get to ongoing shows, but phailhaus would be a good series to test it with.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 06 Jan 2015, 17:26

Maybe we can truncate that to something smaller, but at least I understand.

As far as using episode numbers to figure out previous and next videos automatically... I like the cut of your jib.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Silverfish » 07 Jan 2015, 06:28

I might change the templates to be {{AppearanceBy}} for the formatted version, and {{AppearanceByPlain}}, or something like that, for other version. I expect the formatted version will be used more often.

One issue with episode numbers is that there is a missing Phailhaus episode, episode 29, so we'll need to move the other episode numbers down one place in the semantic data.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Cuttlefishman » 07 Jan 2015, 10:05

Blowing dust off of this account (Last post was in 2009?), but thought it'd be good to let alls y'all know that I'm going to try to whip the Loading Time videos all into shape on the wiki - make it look something pretty - I've been doing some of the work already. I'm no master by any case at well anything wiki related, but people got to start somewhere.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Silverfish » 07 Jan 2015, 18:17

I've edited out the camera and writing credits out of the Phailhaus episodes they were included in, apart from 27, which explicitly lists Alex and Graham as shooting. I also altered AirDate to ReleaseDate. Next, I'm going to an EditedBy template and property. I think I'll probably add a Category property as well (the vital statistic, I mean). We might be able to replace some of the Categories we have, but I think that will be a large project, to work out what categories we have, what they are used for, etc. At the moment, some categories are used as well as their subcategories (Videos, and Phailhaus, for example), which I don't think is relevant. At some point I'll export the categories as a CSV file and do an analysis.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 07 Jan 2015, 19:44

I've altered my On This Day testing grounds to use Release Date, and it seems to work. It would be so much easier if I could get the date to go through a second transclusion, but I haven't figured that out yet.

Like, how it works now is:

OTT: Give me a date!

Second level: OTT takes the date and spits out the right Phailhaus.

How I want it to work is.

OTT: Give me a date!

Second level: Send this date to 2009 and see if any videos came out that day!

Third level: Yeah, we got one, sendin it back!

But I haven't figured it out yet. It's probably really easy.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 11 Jan 2015, 16:39

I had a thought for the video series that don't have individual pages, but need dates to be entered into the Semantic wiki (Daily Drop, Idiot Room and Crapshots). On their episode tables, their dates should be Semantic-fied so they can be used for On This Day and other stuff, too.

Just something to consider.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby MrL » 12 Jan 2015, 06:58

Is the {{ReleaseDate|month day, year}}-template subject to change or should we start using it for new pages? (as opposed to going back and changing it)
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Silverfish » 12 Jan 2015, 09:50

As far as I'm concerned, the ReleaseDate template is ready to use, although you might want to check with King Kool. I've used it on Phailhaus without any apparent problems, and we seem to have agreed to the Property Name (It also generates ReleaseDay, ReleaseMonth and Release Year). I don't know if we want to use it for live recording such as Checkpointplus. Also, ENN episodes use AirDate in the vital statistics, which I think should be release date, as they aren't recorded live.
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby King Kool » 12 Jan 2015, 12:37

I'm still not sure if we're going to have that transcluded into a larger template with all the Semantic data in it. But that might be more complicated than it's worth, or might have an implementation problem we're not forseeing.

For Feed Dump, when we make the Semantic data for that, I think we should specify host and co-hosts so we can indicate who's hosting and how many times Kathleen has hosted AND been cohost.

MrL, are you thinking of rolling out the ReleaseDate thing wiki-wide by itself, or adding the EditedBy, WrittenBy things as well at the same time? I was thinking we have the whole thing set before we go, but I guess there's no harm in rolling out ReleaseDate first, if that's how you wanna do it.

The date on the Checkpoint live episodes is whatever date the main LRR website says it is. We could make a note on when it was recorded, but I'm not sure if that's necessary.
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Silverfish
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Re: The YRR of LRR is over, but the WIKI still needs your he

Postby Silverfish » 12 Jan 2015, 16:01

Firstly, I think that we should start with one template per property (or closely related properties, say host and co-host), and then if we want a template to cover all of the properties we use it to pass the parameters to the individual templates. But generally I think having individual templates for each property will be more flexible, and they will be easier to test, as we can test each one on it's own.

I agree we should have host and co-host seperately. I was thinking HostedBy and CohostedBy as the properties, but they could be subproperties of AppearanceBy. That way, you could query on HostedByKatheen separately from CohostedBy Katheen, or AppearanceBy Kathleen, which would include both, and her appearances in other shows.

I'm planning to add EditedBy as a credit, as that applies to Phailhaus. I've changed the template names for AppearanceBy and Location, so the property name on its own does the header ('''Location:''', say) and LocationPlain, and similar just provide a link and add the data.

If we just go by what the date on the LRR website, then everything is ReleaseDate. We could have a RecordingDate too, but there isn't a real need for it. With Checkpointplus I was assuming the broadcast date and release date would be the same, so I wasn't sure which name to use.

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