Venting Thread Beta

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Lyinginbedmon
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 15 Jan 2011, 17:21

Humans were not born in logic and rationality.

It'll be a long time before they really work well with it. The exception is generally the ones that, by human standards, aren't working properly in the first place.

And unfortunately, it's generally the ones that are working properly and consider themselves logical and rational that are the most dangerous.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby The Jester » 15 Jan 2011, 17:27

Eeehh, I dunno about 0% logic. Humans are a mix, different percentages in each individual. However; they're all beasts of two parts: Rational and Emotional. If you know they can react emotionally to things and then not take that into account (or apologise afterwards when you realise where and how you made that happen) then the fault's not with them really, is it?

It's like poking a bear with a pointed stick then acting surprised when it mauls your face off.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby The Jester » 15 Jan 2011, 17:28

"Holy shit, why'd that happen? I'm far too logical for that to be my fault."
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Kaiserin » 15 Jan 2011, 17:39

It's not much of a vent, but we were supposed to get snow an we got rain :(

It makes me sad and lonely
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 15 Jan 2011, 17:46

The Jester wrote:Eeehh, I dunno about 0% logic. Humans are a mix, different percentages in each individual. However; they're all beasts of two parts: Rational and Emotional. If you know they can react emotionally to things and then not take that into account (or apologise afterwards when you realise where and how you made that happen) then the fault's not with them really, is it?

It's like poking a bear with a pointed stick then acting surprised when it mauls your face off.

Biologically-speaking, we're still apes. And we evolved for our survival, not to build supercomputers and fly to the moon and solve great philosophical mysteries. As a species, homo sapiens is not evolved to be rational and logical.

Sure, we manage some logic, because it's necessary for our survival. Hungry? Eat food. No food? Find food. Cold? Make warmth. Etc. etc. Some logic is needed for survival, it's a natural consequence of the binary nature of neurons. But it isn't logic in the sense that rationality is civil, it's boolean ones and zeros from an unintentional biochemical mixture over millions of years, and evolution is anything but logical and rational (For example, in order to retain our ability to stand upright, our children must be born before their brains are fully formed).

Now, what separates homo sapiens from other species sharing the planet is that we can learn complex patterns and information and adapt ourselves and our environment to survive better ("survive" here used rather loosely, to refer to a number of things including civilisation sustainal, self-preservation, reproductive viability, etc.) and as such, we're the only currently known species with the capability to become logical and rational. We can put our emotions and feelings aside, the nannies of our civilisational cradle, and do what logic instructs and what rationality dictates.

But as a chunk of biochemical hardware, we're anything but. We're not 0% logic, but as a species we don't work well with logic and rationality, we prefer our cradle-born allies: our emotions and instincts.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby goat » 15 Jan 2011, 18:25

Dear FFX game designers,

Fuck you.

Let me repeat that: fuck. you.

You do not get to make a middle of the game boss that has a guaranteed instant kill combo attack, is immune to all status effects, and not one, but two different attacks that are capable of wiping an entire party. Why don't you get to do that? because it's shitty game design.

Something else you don't get to do? Put a 3 minute cutscene and a random encounter in between the save point and said boss. If it's going to kill you so many times, you need to make everything leading up to it as short and simple as possible, and yes, that means making your fucking beloved cutscenes skippable.

Oh, and another thing you don't get to do: make certain members of the party infinitely more useful in nearly every situation and then punish you for not having leveled the other members who sit on the sidelines because they contribute nothing.

And when did it become a thing to have side quests that are impossible to find/complete without a walkthrough? It's as though you don't want people playing those parts of your game.

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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Matt » 15 Jan 2011, 21:40

Someone's at the peak of that mountain, fighting seymour.

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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby MattAn » 15 Jan 2011, 22:52

goat wrote:TLDR: Lrn2Design


I hate to be a bastard here.. But Lern2strategy.

This may sound odd, but I've had play-throughs of FFX where I have NEVER DIED. Not even once. I'm actually playing through it right now. 10-11 years on. Of course they can make a middle-of-the-game boss that's a pain in the ass to defeat. Isn't that what would determine the "end of a disc" in previous games? Massively powerful bosses at the end of big cutscenes (Final Fantasy VII, the supposed OMGITSSOMUCHMOREAWESOME game of the series?)

Seymour is unbelievably simple if you're wise enough. You can tell when he's most likely to bring out a "Holy Shit!" move, so use a fucking Aeon to take the hit. Simple.

As for characters being infinitely more useful in nearly every situation.. How, exactly? Yes, Lulu's BEST against Flans/Elementals, Wakka (and to a lesser extent, Tidus) is BEST against flying, Tidus is BEST against the swift-moving ones, Rikku can handle machina easily (and also to a lesser extent, the fiends Tidus can kill in one hit) and Auron/Kimahri can tear apart hardened fiends.. I've never had a problem with under-leveled characters. I'm finding it extremely hard to see how they "contribute nothing".. I may just have to hold up the "You're Doing It Wrong!" sign, there.

Scan is also your best friend. So Lern2Kimahri as well?
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby JustAName » 16 Jan 2011, 02:11

Master Gunner wrote:
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We're not actively getting laid right now. Back to the bed, you.


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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Deedles » 16 Jan 2011, 04:51

MattAn wrote:
goat wrote:TLDR: Lrn2Design


I hate to be a bastard here.. But Lern2strategy.

This may sound odd, but I've had play-throughs of FFX where I have NEVER DIED. Not even once. I'm actually playing through it right now. 10-11 years on. Of course they can make a middle-of-the-game boss that's a pain in the ass to defeat. Isn't that what would determine the "end of a disc" in previous games? Massively powerful bosses at the end of big cutscenes (Final Fantasy VII, the supposed OMGITSSOMUCHMOREAWESOME game of the series?)

Seymour is unbelievably simple if you're wise enough. You can tell when he's most likely to bring out a "Holy Shit!" move, so use a fucking Aeon to take the hit. Simple.

As for characters being infinitely more useful in nearly every situation.. How, exactly? Yes, Lulu's BEST against Flans/Elementals, Wakka (and to a lesser extent, Tidus) is BEST against flying, Tidus is BEST against the swift-moving ones, Rikku can handle machina easily (and also to a lesser extent, the fiends Tidus can kill in one hit) and Auron/Kimahri can tear apart hardened fiends.. I've never had a problem with under-leveled characters. I'm finding it extremely hard to see how they "contribute nothing".. I may just have to hold up the "You're Doing It Wrong!" sign, there.

Scan is also your best friend. So Lern2Kimahri as well?


In one of my play throughs I had problems with being under leveled and thus kind of cheated by just doing random encounters until all of my Aeons had their overdrivers, and so had all of the characters, then I threw all of them at Seymour and absolutely annihilated him.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Drinnik » 16 Jan 2011, 05:44

Got to work this morning after an hour drive. Got in, had a hand over, went to speak to the client and got a heavy ashtray thrown at my crotch. Told them I refused to work today and came home.

I hate my job.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 16 Jan 2011, 06:28

God damnit you are not worth the 3000+ I pay to be here.

You don't know how to teach anyone, and when they ask for help you just say yes/no, you never explain the problem or the solution. Your notes are peppered with grammar and spelling mistakes because of the dyslexia you refuse to seek help or advisal with.

And then there's your understanding of workloads. You've managed, in the first two weeks of term, to land us with five MAJOR assignments to hand in.

One of those is due tomorrow, and requires that I make two codes with PHP and a 2000-word report on them. I can write those codes, and I can write that report.

Slight problem: You never once told us how to run PHP codes. Your lecture slides say we need a server, then what? Your lecture notes mention nothing of this. All your example codes are embedded in HTML, but they don't work, not one of them, even Hello World.

You're a disgrace as a university tutor and your only apparently redeeming quality is that you bring jobs to the course, but honestly you are not worth those jobs and you seem determined to prevent anyone in the class from getting them.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby goat » 16 Jan 2011, 07:16

@Matt: Yes. Yes I am.

@MattAn: I've played plenty of other FF games (even multidisk ones) and never had a problem with a boss like this. The problem with pulling out an Aeon in this fight is that inevitably the next move after you pull him out is always Banish, and usually he gets a free turn to do it on, just like his ride's absorption tech.

As for certain character's usefulness: Rikku is only good for machina, Lulu is only good against elementals, and Kim (or as I've been calling him for the last 3 days: KimKim), we'll get to him in a minute. I could have a party with Auron, Tidus and Wakka and just put that shit on autopilot. Auron is pretty routinely busting up against the damage limit when he crits, Wakka is getting there and Tidus is just so goddamned fast. Between the three of them I can one hit just about anything I run across, and with two of them having Evade and Counter on their weapons, the fiends do half the work for me.

Kimahri, on the other hand, follows Lulu's path unless you turn him around and stick him on Tidus', using a key sphere. Guess which one I've been doing? He's lucky if he can hit for 300, even with piercing. I'm in the process of dragging him back across the sphere grid right now, which is exactly as much fun as it sounds.

I would have no problem if I had 3 Aurons, Tidus, Wakka and a Healer. Hell, you could even ditch Wakka and give me 4 Aurons.

And then there's Yuna. Useful, if you're dying or you need a lot of damage really quickly and she happens to have her overdrive up, otherwise: not so much. She does just as good of a job from the menu (except I have 1mp cost on her now, so it's cheaper to do it on the battle map now). OK, so I go to look up what I'm doing wrong in this fight. The guide helpfully suggests using Dispel so he nukes himself with the Flare. Ok, great. Where is Dispel? It's 15 fucking spheres away. Meanwhile, Cpt. Killeverything Auron is at the end of his path, barred by a key sphere node. Fuck a dick.

@Deedles: that was the conclusion I came to last night. Already have all of my character ODs up, but I need to set up the Aeons yet and finish dragging Yuna and KimKim through the grid.

----------------------

It has finally dawned on me the difference between western and japanese RPGs, and it can be summed up in a Yakov Smirnoff joke. "In Western RPGs, you get to play whatever role you want, but in JRPGs, ROLE PLAYS YOU!"

And one more thing: You don't get to make something weak against an elemental attack and then resistant to magic. That's just a dick move.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby MattAn » 16 Jan 2011, 07:49

Deedles wrote:In one of my play throughs I had problems with being under leveled and thus kind of cheated by just doing random encounters until all of my Aeons had their overdrivers, and so had all of the characters, then I threw all of them at Seymour and absolutely annihilated him.


Exactly! I pretty much have Overdrives full on every character AND Aeon, just in case "shit gets real up in this bitch". Even without them, with logical equipment set up on each character (considering you get the ability to customize equipment AND teach Aeons abilities and boost their stats..)

Sir Deedles, I salute you.

@goat; Again, sadly, you're doing it horribly wrong. I use all of my characters ALL the time. I've never had a situation where I haven't had a use for them. Yuna's got her Nul spells, Rikku can basically heal as good as Yuna can with items (Hell, she has a ARRAY of items at her disposal), I regularly use Lulu for things like Reflex and Focus.. Yep, I've always had a use for them. As for Kimahri (or "KimKim")'s Sphere Grid paths.. He's actually in Wakka's in my game. And I can even take him up through Auron's for good measure! :D Then again, I have my shiny PAL version with the Advanced Sphere Grid option. There's still nodes I need to "unlock" with key spheres, but I can practically go whichever path I like for any character.

The last thing I want is Japanese RPGs like Final Fantasy to become Western RPGs. I quite like the style that Squaresoft used with their Final Fantasy games. I honestly do not care for burly brute hardcore everyman/blank slate main character running around in a shooter-style RPG. FFX's Auron and FFVII's Cid Highwind are two of my favorite Final Fantasy characters throughout the entire series. However, the way most WRPGs are designed as "Here's a vast map, go nuts!" just really irritates me. I like following along a storyline with a cast of characters.

One thing I wouldn't mind more recent JRPG designers used from WRPGs is a custom-made character. Not a blank slate everyman.. But a bit like how Aion and Final Fantasy XIV have their customization. You pick a race, a gender, a basic look, then go about customizing every single part of the character. If there is voice-acting, with pre-determined names, you have an issue, because it will mean your character already has a name. Otherwise you have something like FFX, where no one EVER says "Tidus" in the entire game. Simply because you can change his name and it would royally fuck up the voice acting.

You can't have everything in games, so I'm going to say what I usually do in this petty WRPG vs. JRPG debate. Let the opposing side play their games in peace. The games THEY want. Not the games you want them to be. WRPGs are not JRPGs because there happens to be people who prefer a different style of game. It does not make it the wrong preference. That's what REALLY pisses me off when WRPG fanatics bash JRPGs and the designers of JRPGs. They're not designed for WRPG players. It's plain and simple.

Eh, I'm not going to change my stance on WRPGs vs. JRPGs for anyone. I will play whatever, as long as the individual game is enjoyable. I like Fable III, I don't really like Mass Effect much (never really cared for it, actually). I like Final Fantasy, I don't really like the Persona games much.

...I'm a really big fan of the battle system in FFX. VII/VIII's ATB bored me to tears.. It's also why I absolutely adore FFXIII's battle system is well. If it's not fast-paced and action-packed like XIII's, it should be as strategic as FFX's.

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THE PART BELOW THIS LINE IS THE ACTUALLY RELEVANT STUFF

Anyway.. What could I possibly rant/vent about that I haven't already? Still no responses from job applications, I've made several every week for the past many, many months..

I am a tad more financially happy though, which is refreshing. $1000 more, in fact. However, I spent the last few months working out things I might want to buy/upgrade (new HDTV, a Wii or PS3, new motherboard/processor for my PC.. Just to name a few) and yet, I honestly don't know where to start or what I need first, etc. Fun times~

GO ABOUT YOUR DAILY BUSINESS, CITIZENS. POST ENDS HERE.
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EDIT: Additionally...
goat wrote:And one more thing: You don't get to make something weak against an elemental attack and then resistant to magic. That's just a dick move.


Of course they get to! It's not a dick move at all! Y'know there are weapons in FFX that you can equip that have "Firestrike", "Waterstrike", "Lightningstrike" and "Icestrike" effects on them, right? They aren't magic, but they're still elemental attachments! It's a little thing called LOGIC. If they're resistant to magic, OF COURSE it's going to need a physical attack instead. Adding an elemental bonus onto that attack? OH MY GOD THAT'S INSANE.

Christ...
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Deedles » 16 Jan 2011, 08:15

MattAn wrote:
Deedles wrote:In one of my play throughs I had problems with being under leveled and thus kind of cheated by just doing random encounters until all of my Aeons had their overdrivers, and so had all of the characters, then I threw all of them at Seymour and absolutely annihilated him.


Exactly! I pretty much have Overdrives full on every character AND Aeon, just in case "shit gets real up in this bitch". Even without them, with logical equipment set up on each character (considering you get the ability to customize equipment AND teach Aeons abilities and boost their stats..)

Sir Deedles, I salute you.


Wow, that's the first I've mention that tactic and haven't been showered in 'YOU CHEATED'!!! I mean ... the overdrives are there for a reason, might as well use them, even though I tend to prefer not doing so. I actually quite like going through the game and thinking of ways to not allow normal mobs to hurt me at all, or as little as possible. Thought of a great tactic against pretty much all of the mobs between Mi'ihen Highroad and Mt. Gagazet.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby goat » 16 Jan 2011, 08:49

Ok, for being a dick (and by that I mean specifically talking down to me), I'm venting on you.

You can't say "oh you're doing it wrong, you suck" with any hopes of not sounding like a dick. This is my first playthrough. My first. And when I encounter something for the first time that appears to be inordinately hard (ie, I had no idea it was coming and have thus, not prepared for it) it's frustrating. It is even more frustrating when someone who has beaten the game multiple times pops up and says what you have said. Hence the venting.

As for what you took to for the crux of your post: that wasn't my point. Yes, western RPGs (and many games in general) have become overly generic, chest-thumping, testosterone-packed travesties with little if anything that passes as a story. Nor was I implying that there should be more sandbox style gameplay or anything else you took to be my position in your post.

Partially, this is my fault. I should have been more clear.

What I wanted was the ability to play the game how I wanted to. I don't think that's too much to ask, really. In western games, you get to pick a class (or classes) and play through the game as it is and find unique points where there is more or less of a challenge based on the class you picked.

In FFX, the thing specifically I'm frustrated by with JRPGs in this instance, you're locked into a class and you play with those classes until the end. It's a fucking caste system. I want better control over how my characters develop, because they're my characters. This doesn't mean that I want to abandon the story line or have characters learn wildly out of character traits, but it'd be fucking nice if they developed how I used them.

In this case, my solution to the problems in the game (hit things with big-ass swords, heal, more swords) has differed widely from the apparent intended solution (use status effects, boost your party, elemental damage, repeat) and I'm being punished for it. Both interpretations are equally valid ways to play the game, and I would rather see the game react to my interpretation than impose the Procrustean standards of a very rote system upon the player.

Let me emphasize that I'm not trying to convince you either way, nor am I particularly trying to bash anything. Honestly, I don't really give two shits about your opinions on games one way or the other (don't get me wrong, I'm sure you have some valuable opinions, but I don't stay up nights wondering how you feel about a genre).

And finally, we come to the part that really made me feel like this had to be a post that I couldn't keep to myself: your edit. That was just uncalled for. Yes, I know there are weapons with those abilities; yes, I know that's what you're supposed to do in those situations; yes, I even know that that might be what passes for "strategy" to you.

But to me it's pointless item managing. I go to the trouble to customize my gear, spec it up nice and powerful-like, and then get stuck using a piece of crap gear I picked up 12 stages ago because it has Icestrike on it? No thanks. If something is vulnerable to fire, it should fucking burn and burn hard when I light it on fire. And then comes the part where every problem is a nail, and my hammer's name is Auron.

TLDR:
1) don't be a pretentious dick
2) that wasn't what I had intended that post to be, but I think I've cleared it up
3) your definition of strategy is my definition of pointless item managing
4) don't be a dick
-------------------------

Sorry to everyone who would like to enjoy an invective-free, non-personal venting thread, and that hasn't been the case for the last day or so. MattAn, if you feel you'd like another shot at me, I suggest we drag this to PMs or at least into another thread so people can ignore/avoid our petty arguments if they so choose. Cheers.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby The Jester » 16 Jan 2011, 12:14

Stop trying to talk to me, slutbag. I want to throw bricks at your face.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Metcarfre » 16 Jan 2011, 12:14

Venting thread whaaaaaa!?

just a comment, move along.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby MotorWaffle » 16 Jan 2011, 13:36

My first time through FFX I ignored the sphere grid. This was not out of a desire for challenge, but because I was 10 and the tutorial was long. I got all the way to Seymore at Shiva's temple somehow before my brother asked why my character's HP was so low.
Suddenly the problem became clear.
This has no bearing on any previous post, I just thought it was an amusing story.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 16 Jan 2011, 14:18

Screw it, I'm finding the dean tomorrow and complaining until my jaw goes numb.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Theremin » 16 Jan 2011, 14:49

Might want to plan out that speech, else it'll get jumbled.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby The Jester » 16 Jan 2011, 14:50

Ugh. Feeling; lonely, like I can't draw, annoyed, a little hopeless. I wish I knew where life keeps it's butt, so I could go kick it. >:/
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Echi » 16 Jan 2011, 16:51

Hey Internet, how about you stay connected for longer than five seconds at a time so I can actually do something.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Kaiserin » 16 Jan 2011, 17:24

The Jester wrote:Ugh. Feeling; lonely, like I can't draw, annoyed, a little hopeless. I wish I knew where life keeps it's butt, so I could go kick it. >:/


I'm feelin' almost exactly the same. You're not alone.
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Re: Venting Thread Beta

Postby Mister Fiend » 16 Jan 2011, 17:59

my flesh BURNS
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TACOS!
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