Doctor Who

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Geoff_B
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Geoff_B » 19 May 2013, 04:35

TheGhostOfZero wrote:I read an article saying John Hurt is being retconned in by Moffat as the "real" 9th Doctor. Moffat even said that "because Time Lords only have 12 regenerations, the Doctor's time is running out" which is canon-ignorant bullshit.



I don't like this idea. Sure it bumps Chris Ecclestone up to 10, David Tennant up to 11 and Matt Smith up to 12, but all the way through the Doctor has made no secret of his actions during the Time War. He basically wiped out two powerful races and we know he did it, so why make a big secret of it?

Although the 12 regens is true, but that just means the Doctor's got another 2 to go through (assuming William Hartnell was in fact 1)
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby TheGhostOfZero » 19 May 2013, 05:25

It was established in canon that the 12 regens was a rule enforced by the Time Lords. They dead.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 19 May 2013, 05:42

Wasn't there a thing of them getting crazier/more evil the more regenerations they went through? Hence the Valeyard and the Master?
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby DmitriW » 19 May 2013, 05:56

Lyinginbedmon wrote:Wasn't there a thing of them getting crazier/more evil the more regenerations they went through? Hence the Valeyard and the Master?

Nah. The Master was always nuts.

The Valeyard was a potential future Doctor, but not one that was guaranteed to exist. Time travel was even sketchier back then, apparently.

Though if Rassilon is any indication, Time Lord senility does seem to carry a certain level of genocidal madness...

TheGhostOfZero wrote:It was established in canon that the 12 regens was a rule enforced by the Time Lords. They dead.

If it was just a rule enforced by the Time Lords, why did the Classic Who Master need a special artifact to get more regenerations? Admittedly, crossing Classic Who Canon with New Who Canon is a dangerous proposition, but I can't help feeling there's more than just "The Laws of Time" governing regeneration...
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby WAYF » 19 May 2013, 06:31

That certainly was a thing.

I enjoyed that thing.
Even the part where River Song bailed them all out like she always does by the grace of her Moffat-given (literally God-given) FUTURE KNOWLEDGE.
Even the green screen which nothing could possibly make look realistic.
Even the bit where Clara basically ignored the point of the episode "The Doctor's Wife"

I am... okay with John Hurt being retconned as the 9th Doctor. I mean, if you're going to tackle the admittedly extremely heavy issue of The Time War, and it isn't fitting for either the 8th nor the 9th Doctors to commit horrible acts of genocide, then what that means is that there was another Doctor whom The Doctor himself denounces as an abomination. Pretend that this particular iteration never existed, because it makes the horrible stuff easier to deal with.
Like it or not, I think it makes sense.
And the reveal was marvellously executed.


So yes, overall, I really enjoyed this episode. I feel that it was about as good as it could have been, but without being everything the audience expected (cause that would have been boring).
Though Moffat is attaining Master levels of Troll. :P

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby DmitriW » 19 May 2013, 06:45

I'm hopeful that we get to see a whole series about the Time War at some point, since they've cast the Doctor from that time period. I'm not sure what else they can do with him, honestly...
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 19 May 2013, 07:21

I found it interesting. Found the narrative weird. The Clara thing didn't really pay off as much as it was built up/implied. I don't get why WarDoctor was a secret since The Time War was pretty much known by a lot of races. It feels very open ended and leads into the anniversary.
This series as been weird. The finale and Christmas special both feel open ended and not really self-contained.
Whispermen were disturbing and creepy... but not as creepy or disturbing as the Silence or Angels. They were kinda avatar Zombies really... Weird episode.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby tbug » 19 May 2013, 07:51

Lyinginbedmon wrote:Wasn't there a thing of them getting crazier/more evil the more regenerations they went through? Hence the Valeyard and the Master?


Don't forget Borusa. My guess: It's not actually a thing, but a bunch of Time Lords believe it to be true anyway.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Geoff_B » 19 May 2013, 08:05

The Valeyard wasn't a proper regeneration anyway IIRC. He was the sum of the Doctor's darker side somewhere between his twelfth and final regeneration.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby tbug » 19 May 2013, 09:05

It's murky. The writer and the producers disagreed over the nature of the Valeyard, and so things got changed on the fly. This somehow did not help clarify the situation.

Also, a lot of what we know about the Valeyard comes from what the Master said about him. I recognize that the Master doesn't lie as much as the Doctor does, but I'm still not sure how reliable a witness he is.

I think this leaves us with a lot of scope for exploring the plot, and I'm glad this is being done.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Drecon » 19 May 2013, 10:02

The episode felt a bit rushed to me. It was like they wanted to fit three different stories into this one and it almost came together great. Still, I loved all the throwbacks to earlier doctors, loved the Valeyard thing and loved the whole setting, with the doctor's grave and such.

Still, they wanted too much here. The Great Intelligence didn't quite fit in, the Clara thing was just half-executed and the ending, while ominous and provoking seemed a bit random.
I think this one would've been perfect as a double episode, with John Hurt as the bad guy or something like that, only to realize at the end that he is the doctor.

Anyway, I'm stoked to see what they're gonna do with the 50th anniversary and I did in fact love the episode, despite my above criticism.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 19 May 2013, 10:13

I actually felt like it was paced slowly and I wondered how everything would tie-off. It felt like the confrontation with the GI happened too soon however. Perhaps the pace was wrong in general. Slow start and then it jitters forwards an episode. I quite like the send off for Riversong. Does make me sad that we'll never probably see good Riversong again. Since the time period in which she's a likeable character is small. She's apparently seen a lot of future Doctors though.

I was actually awaiting the reveal that Riversong was one of Clara's echoes. Not that I wanted it. I was just second guessing Troffat.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 19 May 2013, 10:21

I genuinely thought that was fantastic; properly tense, really well driven by the characters, and to hell with whether it made sense or not. All I know is, this looks like it's going in a pretty awesome direction, and I am looking forward to November 23rd
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Drecon » 19 May 2013, 10:33

Basically, we already know almost everything there is to know about River Song. We've seen her birth, life and death. There was no way Clara fit anywhere in there.
That said. I did cry a little at the goodbye part. It actually felt like she's never coming back.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby PlasmaCow » 19 May 2013, 13:05

well that was quite something
A something I enjoyed I'd add, but I'd agree it was a little rough in places - river song's grave as a secret entrance into catacombs in which there was then a secret entry to the TARDIS makes any story sense how?
Is the implication that River will witness the final death of the Doctor in the battle on Trenzilore? and was believed among the dead?
Certainly the least understandable piece of the plot. Everything else I could pretty much get behind one way or the other.

Also this River being a projection of the copy stored in The Library rather than the flesh-and-blood one was... different.

It felt more like it needed a 60min length to give a better flow to things rather than it's 45mins or a full-on two parter to be honest.

I also really liked that the episode title was used with several different meanings throughout the story, and without the obvious choice of revealing his actual name.

Geoff_B:
"1. GI goes into the scar, messes with the Doc's life and is destroyed in the process, however when Clara goes into the scar she helps the Doc over his life, is not destroyed and ends up in one piece in the centre of the Doc's mind. Then the Doc goes into the scar after her. Why is he not scattered throughout his life as well? Why did GI not end up in the same place as Clara?"

As I understood it, she doesn't end up in his mind, she ends up in a state a'la Schrödinger's cat, both existing and not existing in all places across his entire timeline.

Apparently the Doctor entering his own timeline in the same fashion works differently - or perhaps will be answered by the 50th anniversary episode. Heck perhaps him entering his own timeline is what causes Matt Smith, David Tennant and John Hurt to interact in the context of the 50th special.
Nov 23rd, we shall see, I suspect.


With some further thought and re-watching the ending, I'd guess John Hurt probably is the Doctor that fought in, or at least ended, the Time War.
Perhaps dying in the process and creating Ecclestone's Doctor who still possessed the warrior spirit needed during the war, something that didn't truly fade until the regen into Tennant.
Or maybe he didn't die in the Time War, hence why there's the chance to overlap with Tennant/Smith.
So much to think about, so very long to wait for answers!!! And Sherlockian's think they get it bad from Moffat.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Lord Hosk » 19 May 2013, 13:33

Geoff B.

You can explain away the great intelligence getting destroyed spread to little bits and Clara somehow maintaining herself in two ways.

1. He had no body he was just a lost idea she had a body.

2. The doctor wants to destroy him, and wants to save her.

You can combine or separate those as much as you like.

As for the doctor entering his own timeline I dont know that doesnt make sense, also the instant he eliminated some of those "victories" the doctors timeline should have altered to the point that it ended much sooner. If the doctor "lost" on quite a few occasions even if the universe didnt end his life certainly would have.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Master Gunner » 19 May 2013, 13:44

The Doctor (and/or his companions) had made arrangements that after the battle, River Song's grave would be set up as a secret passage to the monument (note: I don't think it actually went into the TARDIS itself, just to the front door. However, the TARDIS was leaking into the secret passage instead), because he knew that his past self would need it...having needed it as his past self. One of those stable time loop things. Of course, I expect that the future/past adventures of the Doctor will eventually completely wipe out the timeline that leads to Trenzalore. Timey-Whimey and all that.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Drecon » 19 May 2013, 14:22

Master Gunner wrote:The Doctor (and/or his companions) had made arrangements that after the battle, River Song's grave would be set up as a secret passage to the monument (note: I don't think it actually went into the TARDIS itself, just to the front door. However, the TARDIS was leaking into the secret passage instead), because he knew that his past self would need it...having needed it as his past self. One of those stable time loop things. Of course, I expect that the future/past adventures of the Doctor will eventually completely wipe out the timeline that leads to Trenzalore. Timey-Whimey and all that.


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Re: Doctor Who

Postby LogicSword » 19 May 2013, 16:11

... All I could think of during the second half of this episode was the Synthesis ending of Mass Effect 3.

I enjoyed it. Marathoned all of this series over the past two days because I'd left them all till now by sheer lazyness. But yeah,I'm glad Clara wasn't killed off. Did not like the "INTRODUCING JOHN HURT AS THE DOCTOR" message that came up at the end. Wished they'd just put that over the end credits.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 19 May 2013, 16:14

Explains the Sliver of Ice on the Doctor's Heart (either the GI or the Lost 'Doctor')

Isn't Clara a bit like Bad Wolf? She made herself. She made sure she got conceived via leaf
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby DmitriW » 20 May 2013, 08:14

Alternate theory regarding John Hurt.

Giant spoiler block below; this is likely more fanfic than legitimate theory, but fuck it. I like it.
John Hurt is the 12th Doctor, not the 9th. If the Time War is as bad as The Doctor makes it sound, especially in terms of paradoxes introduced by either side, why wouldn't the Time Lords "draft" multiple incarnations of each of their soldiers?

If multiple Doctors were on hand during the war, they could easily become aware of the 12th Doctor's plan to end it by destroying both sides. They would disown him for it, but might not be able to stop him--or would just be completely unable to, depending on how set history was at that point, and if the 12th Doctor had memories of their attempts to stop him.

The other Doctors might be able to escape, though, ensuring the continuation of their timeline. Maybe the 8th Doctor made a final attempt to stop 12, getting killed in the process--which is why we see 9 looking at his own face for the first time in Rose.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Mara Kalat » 20 May 2013, 10:03

I liked it! :D

I also like what a lot of you are saying about it, even the things that weren't that positive.
One note for me to add:

If John Hurt is the doctor then I'm pretty sure he's not the 12th. Many things get messed with in the Whoniverse, but he still grows younger with every regeneration.

Why does it need to be soooo long until the next one though? So mean... :x

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Re: Doctor Who

Postby DmitriW » 20 May 2013, 10:25

Mara:

In my theory above, that depends on how long he spent fighting in the Time War. He could have regenerated into a young man, and then aged.

That said, you're probably right.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby PlasmaCow » 20 May 2013, 10:34

oh oh! new theory just occured to me.
what if John Hurt's Doctor is just Paul McGann's in old age? They're not that dissimilar in basic facial shape, so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility in TV land. As far as we've known up to this point it was McGann's iteration that fought and died in the Time War, so what if that's still true, but he lived a long life to get to that point?
Granted, that reveal would make more sense if it was McGann himself coming back (something I think would be pretty fun and a nice way to give him a second crack at it), but hey, it's still an option to add to the long list of possibilities.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby ecocd » 20 May 2013, 10:39

When do the spoiler tags officially come off? It's difficult to highlight text mobile. :)

I would be very happy to see John Hurt as the 9th Doctor, but it's going to wreak havoc with the canon, because we'll have to shift everyone up by one and it's bound to create loads of confusion. So is next season Matt Smith, John Hurt or both? Better yet, why can't he [i]be[/b] Matt Smith? There are no rules governing the Time War so they can do pretty much anything they want.

I like PlasmaCow's idea of him being the 8th Doctor. McGann has stayed active in the Whoverse with his BBC Radio Series so there's basically zero doubt he would be interested in reprising his onscreen role. He practically has to be in any 50th anniversary stuff, right?

For entirely practical purposes, John Hurt can't be a long-term Doctor character. His age severely limits the scripts that can be written. The Doctor and his companion are always running. A 73-year old man can be an accomplished actor, but he sure isn't going to be an action hero.

Does this mean they're actually going to tell the story of the Time War? That would be a real throwback to classic Doctor Who with a 6-episode story arc where the story is much more a 5.5 hour episodes than 6 separate episodes with some tenuous links to an ongoing plot arc. I suppose that isn't practical as it means someone would have to be working on such a script for well over a year to put together that much material.

Also, my wife pointed out that the scene at the very end with The Doctor holding Clara was the quintessential promotional image for the season. American television producers must be jealous they can market scenes from the final moments of the season.
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