Doctor Who

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Robo4900
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Robo4900 » 17 Nov 2015, 08:08

Okay, but if it did happen, that means the monster won, the Doctor lost, and the monsters have succeeded in taking over the universe. Even though the Doctor started to unravel it at the end, he was too late.

So, therefore, unless the next episode follows the events of this one directly, this episode simply can't be canon.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Darkflame » 17 Nov 2015, 11:20

Well, the doctor does lie :P
My thinking the doctor mentions a future disaster near the start no? He doesnt give Clara a explanation, just vaguely refers to "the great disaster" or something.
I assumed this was some Classic Who reference I didn't know. But it could be referring to "the sandman invasion" - an event yet to happen but which follows this. The Doc already knew it was coming, but did nothing because...I dunno, the normal laws of time shit he selectively follows.

Obviously they dont go on to take over the universe, but you know, thats just the Docs normal hyperbole.


Anyway, in either case too many holes that need to be filled.
I'll give them credit for that last FX shot at the end though, that was nicely nightmare-ish.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby tbug » 17 Nov 2015, 11:26

According to Mark Gatiss (who wrote the episode) the reference was to Frontios, a Fifth Doctor story.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Darkflame » 17 Nov 2015, 15:26

oh, there goes that theory then.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 21 Nov 2015, 13:08

Face the Raven: Oh.

I didn't find myself tearful. I felt like "oops. that's a mistake." and I was waiting for some twist, which didn't come. Feels like... something's missing.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby PlasmaCow » 21 Nov 2015, 13:19

well that sure was an episode... not sure what I think of it yet, but you couldn't have much more finality to Clara's part than that. I do like that they had been emphasising her gung-ho-ness more and more in recent episodes, with the Doctor even commenting on it at some points, which seemed fitting for the lack of Danny Pink to balance her self-preservation with.

I think the music with no vocals at her death robbed it a bit of pure emotion impact at the final moments, but I understand that they'll have made that choice so as not to mentally scar kids that are watching what is ultimately a family show.

While I've pretty much always liked Clara as a companion (she worked much better playing off of Capaldi than Matt Smith), I never felt I built much of an emotional connection to the character compared to other modern companions, despite all her personal trials and losses.


This series overall though continues to be excellent, the numerous two parters and the repeating/returning characters and plot threads is a far cry from Moffat's low-point of series 7 (Amy & Rory's last 6 episodes and Clara's first 6) – which while the first half worked alright, the latter half felt horribly rushed and like it was missing several episodes.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 21 Nov 2015, 21:52

I just caught up on the last two episodes tonight (DB came first this last week).

I agree that "Sleep No More" was something of a dud. The conceit of the monsters was frankly silly as hell, and the ending was... hrm. Guess that's it for humanity? How does that square with established canon?

That said, I did like the worldbuilding in that particular era, and I hope we return to it with a less... that... kind of story. And I do always prefer Doctor Who when it's being science fiction instead of when it's being fantasy, so that's nice.

As to some of the questions in this thread, I think I have some answers.

1) The "robot" we're seeing through at the beginning is the grunt 474. Chopra refers to her as a killing machine, which is in-character for him, but which is also kind of confusing. There was also a lot of head-hopping between the various military characters right at the start, before that had been explained, which added to the confusion. I thought there was a robot to begin with, too, but I managed to work out it was the grunt.

2) The sleep in Clara's and Nagata's eyes at the end of the episode was left behind when the Tardis vorp-vorped out. It was subtle, but it was shown by the final shot - from the perspective of one of the two characters, staring at the inside of the Tardis doors. The doors faded away elsewhere... but the camera (and thus the sleep) remained on the station. No plot hole.

3) The episode didn't end with "It was all a dream." It ended with "I made this recording all exciting and interesting so you'd watch it... and in it I hid a signal that works like the Morpheus devices do. And I broadcast it everywhere. Everyone who watches it (including you, chump) starts to develop sleep dust. I have ended the human race with this recording." Which is annoying from a continuity point of view, but it's not a dream.

Yay, Armageddon?


4) The "great disaster" The Doctor refers to was by way of explaining the Indo-Japanese society that they encountered. It had happened long before the episode, and had, somehow, caused Japan and India to physically merge. Something about tectonic shifts. Nothing to do with the sandmen.

As to "Face the Raven," I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it. I never really connected with Clara, so it lacked impact for me. And I thought her decision to take on the "tattoo" was just stupid of her - it was clearly going to come to no good by the end of the episode. Seems I was right.

Merrymaker_Mortalis says something felt missing this episode, and I agree. It just felt... off. Danny Pink's death was much better handled, I thought.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 22 Nov 2015, 06:18

I like Clara. But I did feel her character developments felt very sudden-progressed.

A weakness of her character is that she seems to develop traits on the odd occasion that is relevant to that episode.

Her fondness of Robin Hood (would have guessed Jane Austin, a more likely random idolatry to throw in).

Her excessive enjoyment of everything in that episode felt... it was building up to that, I just felt like the arc did a sudden 10m leap forward just to justify the episode.

I like her character, but I did face palm when she came up the scheme. She did something so stupid, so when she did come to die, I had to remove my FRUSTRATION with her and develop sadness, which didn't come. Because I was waiting for a twist, that never came.

I was expecting the Raven to fly past or through her and into the Doctor. I was expecting Ashjildar to take the sentence to finally relieve her of her curse of immortality. Everything happened straight forwards and it didn't fit. People speak of it being powerful of her dying honorably.

But, she didn't. She condemned herself through a mistake and being too clever. She then had to gather dignity back when she realised she was doomed.
-
There is a window she can return, but not as Clara companion. A theory I saw was that the Raven isn't a death sentence, it's judgement. It judges people's worth. Everyone runs. But Clara faced it. Clara was brave. Clara was chosen. Perhaps someone is wanting to put the hybrid theory into motion, and now they have their candidate.

Clara could return as a villainous creation.

I say this because I feel like the events lacked an epilogue. Very abrupt. The Ponds had a little closure, and then proper closure with a deleted scene.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Darkflame » 22 Nov 2015, 10:18

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:
As to some of the questions in this thread, I think I have some answers.

1) The "robot" we're seeing through at the beginning is the grunt 474. Chopra refers to her as a killing machine, which is in-character for him, but which is also kind of confusing. There was also a lot of head-hopping between the various military characters right at the start, before that had been explained, which added to the confusion. I thought there was a robot to begin with, too, but I managed to work out it was the grunt.


Correct - after rewatching I saw that myself, but the switching threw me off the first few times.
I would point out while watching it though a few times I did notice;
Those very much are head-cameras. You can see the lens and everything
One confusion solved, another one starts.

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:4) The "great disaster" The Doctor refers to was by way of explaining the Indo-Japanese society that they encountered. It had happened long before the episode, and had, somehow, caused Japan and India to physically merge. Something about tectonic shifts. Nothing to do with the sandmen.


See above tbug post, its apparently a classic who reference.

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:As to "Face the Raven," I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it. I never really connected with Clara, so it lacked impact for me. And I thought her decision to take on the "tattoo" was just stupid of her - it was clearly going to come to no good by the end of the episode. Seems I was right.


Only from a meta-standpoint, imho. In universe, Ashjildar stated quite clearly she could cancel the raven and Clara heard that. The "except if you trade it" small print might as well have been "except if your name starts with C".
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 22 Nov 2015, 11:58

Darkflame wrote:Only from a meta-standpoint, imho. In universe, Ashjildar stated quite clearly she could cancel the raven and Clara heard that. The "except if you trade it" small print might as well have been "except if your name starts with C".


True... but it still struck me as pointless - someone was going to die if they didn't solve the problem, regardless - and, well, contrived. It smacked of the writers making Clara do something stupid because their plot demanded it. They needed her dead, and this was a way to do it, good sense be damned.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Darkflame » 22 Nov 2015, 12:46

Sure, although that brings up something else..
In order to "call off" The Raven didn't Ashjildar have to give it another person? What was her deal/arrangement with it going to be if things had gone to plan?
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 22 Nov 2015, 12:53

As I understand it, she could revoke the deal entirely if it had remained with the person it was originally meant to kill. No one need die. But under no circumstance could she revoke the deal if it had been transferred to another person. Because that would "change the contract," and eliminate her right to revoke.

You see what I mean about the entire thing being contrived?
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Darkflame » 22 Nov 2015, 17:18

So basically the deal was
"kill people I want OR anyone that wants to swap with them but only let me cancel it if they dont swap" contrived indeed - no one would arrange a deal like that.

At first I thought the Raven was just like some monster going after the "smell" of the tat. Remove the tat, or swap it, it stops going after you.
But with the "deal" it seems more like a bargain - and, of course,a bargain could have any rules you want, but both sides motivations should make sense. I'm not sure it does here.
I mean, if they were going for the whole "trying to cheat death" thing maybe they should have had a more clearly sentient spirit killing. Even have ye-old-contract in writing somewhere - with the key trick being phrasing means the killing part applys to anyone, yet the canceling clause only to the original person. Sure, contracts and bargain for your life are old hat stuff and making it explicit goes more cliche - but its all there anyway in this episode, merely hidden from sight.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Robo4900 » 23 Nov 2015, 00:34

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:2) The sleep in Clara's and Nagata's eyes at the end of the episode was left behind when the Tardis vorp-vorped out. It was subtle, but it was shown by the final shot - from the perspective of one of the two characters, staring at the inside of the Tardis doors. The doors faded away elsewhere... but the camera (and thus the sleep) remained on the station. No plot hole.
Okay, but why didn't the TARDIS take the sleep with it? It doesn't really make sense.

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:3) The episode didn't end with "It was all a dream." It ended with "I made this recording all exciting and interesting so you'd watch it... and in it I hid a signal that works like the Morpheus devices do. And I broadcast it everywhere. Everyone who watches it (including you, chump) starts to develop sleep dust. I have ended the human race with this recording." Which is annoying from a continuity point of view, but it's not a dream.

Yay, Armageddon?
But, as a result, the story effectively ends in act 2 with no real resolution other than what might aswell just be some stupid, meta joke that doesn't make sense in the context of the rest of the series. In order for it to fit in with previously established canon, the signal must have failed to get anywhere, making all the events of the episode completely pointless, unless the Doctor returns to stop them in a future episode, which effectively makes this part one of a two parter we won't get a conclusion to for at least another year.

So, while it isn't a literal case of "It was all a dream", if we never get a conclusion to this episode, it would effectively be a variation on that trope.
Maybe that's just the way I see it, but I think we can all agree it was a bit crap, and the way it screws with previously established continuity is a major flaw, and not one easily fixed without some serious handwaving.

Anyway, on to the latest episode...
Thought it was very good. Clara's death could have been handled a little better, although I will say; I didn't see it coming. I thought they'd save her departure for the Christmas episode, or the season finalé.

One thing I think would have fixed a lot of the contrivance is to cut Rigsy out of the equation, and have Clara start with the timer, then just say it's irrevocable.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby PlasmaCow » 23 Nov 2015, 05:35

Robo4900 wrote:One thing I think would have fixed a lot of the contrivance is to cut Rigsy out of the equation, and have Clara start with the timer, then just say it's irrevocable.

That's not Ashjildar's style though, she wouldn't just choose to kill someone like Clara she knows she's had positive dealings with in the past. Rigsy was chosen as bait because he was known to the doctor, would be able to draw him in, then have the contract removed once the doctor was trapped.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Darkflame » 23 Nov 2015, 06:01

Regarding the Sandman plot dangleing - You know someone else might have stopped the problem. Its not like everyone else on earth is useless except the Doctor.
ahh...who am I kidding...of course everyone but the Doctors useless :P
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 23 Nov 2015, 06:51

I get the feeling that Ashjildar will try remedy her relationship with The Doctor. It wasn't her fault, but The Doctor is emotional and flawed and blames her for the events. Ashjildar I thinks positively of the Doctor, albeit her philosophies might differ. She's like The Master who has empathy.

She betrayed her friend to protect the people under her care.

So she'll return to try and make amends, because I imagine if you make an enemy of The Doctor (even if it's not your fault), it's hard to sleep safely.

You saw the look in her face when the Doctor threatened her. She was terrified.

I like her character. She seems to age with every appearance. It's frightening to realise Maisey is 18 years old. It was like watching a 35 year old actor. A testament to her ability to act.

I guess she definitely can't be a companion now. Has commitments and The Doctor dislikes her.

Would have been interesting if the next companion has influence on the previous companion's departure, like death.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 23 Nov 2015, 16:03

Robo4900 wrote:Okay, but why didn't the TARDIS take the sleep with it? It doesn't really make sense.


Timey-wimey TARDIS magic. It's nonsense and hand-wavy, but it at least isn't a plot hole. It's just contrived. I'm not saying it's good, mind, just that that's what happened.

But, as a result, the story effectively ends in act 2 with no real resolution other than what might aswell just be some stupid, meta joke that doesn't make sense in the context of the rest of the series. In order for it to fit in with previously established canon, the signal must have failed to get anywhere, making all the events of the episode completely pointless, unless the Doctor returns to stop them in a future episode, which effectively makes this part one of a two parter we won't get a conclusion to for at least another year.

So, while it isn't a literal case of "It was all a dream", if we never get a conclusion to this episode, it would effectively be a variation on that trope.
Maybe that's just the way I see it, but I think we can all agree it was a bit crap, and the way it screws with previously established continuity is a major flaw, and not one easily fixed without some serious handwaving.


Oh, it was more than a little crap.

I agree with basically everything you said, here - I was just pointing out that it wasn't a literal dream, which is what I thought you were saying. Apologies.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Robo4900 » 24 Nov 2015, 16:40

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:Timey-wimey TARDIS magic. It's nonsense and hand-wavy, but it at least isn't a plot hole. It's just contrived. I'm not saying it's good, mind, just that that's what happened.
Yeah, that... Sounds about right... -_-

Arclight_Dynamo wrote:Oh, it was more than a little crap.

I agree with basically everything you said, here - I was just pointing out that it wasn't a literal dream, which is what I thought you were saying. Apologies.

No worries. :)
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby PlasmaCow » 28 Nov 2015, 13:28

Well that was an interesting episode, not entirely sure there was an explanation of how he actually ended up inside the confession dial, or rather whose machinations caused that.

The best I can figure is that the teleport placed him into his own confession dial, which itself then creates a portal back to Gallifrey – in line with what he said about Time Lords wanting to die among their own kind, the confession dial facilitates that. Or something.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Merrymaker_Mortalis » 28 Nov 2015, 15:05

LIKE

(but as mentioned above, some bits need to be explained next episode)
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby tbug » 28 Nov 2015, 22:59

The previous episode ended with the threat of the Doctor being teleported someplace nasty, and the demand that he hand over his Confession Dial.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Robo4900 » 29 Nov 2015, 03:59

Yeah.

Episode was okay IMO. Ending montage dragged on too long, but other than that, it was pretty good.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Gamercow » 29 Nov 2015, 10:13

I can't say that I liked this episode. As soon as he was teleported, I had an idea of what was going on. When he got to the unbreakable wall, I recognized it as the very old science fiction trope of a time loop. There were some good parts to the episode, like some of the puzzles, and some of the suspenseful moments were done well. My main complaint is that even though she's dead(I am assuming it will stick this time because we know Jenna Coleman is leaving the show) Clara is still super special super girl who can do everything, an ultimate Mary Sue. We were told that she was amazing, that she was special, that she mattered, but to me, she never showed me why I should care so much about her. That combined with the nonsensical continuity of the last few years makes episodes like this(and the previous one) have very little impact. It's a shame, I was really enjoying the middle of this season. Maisie Williams and her character were 100 times more interesting than anything Jenna or Clara ever did for me.
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Re: Doctor Who

Postby Darkflame » 29 Nov 2015, 14:02

So....whos seen Triangle(2009) then? :P

Anyway, I enjoyed that episode.
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