THE FINAL SHOWDOWN: American English vs Canadian English

[TheRocket]

So, I'm CONSTANTLY getting told I'm mispronouncing the word PASTA by Americans. Especially one hard headed buffoon that I am married to.

Please see this site for IN DEPTH EXPLAINATION:http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/Canadian/canphon3.html

Now, there is a DISTINCT difference in the way some Canadians and some Americans pronounce their "A" vowels. My question is, does having different regional dialects make a pronunciation WRONG? Because those in California pronounce things differently from those in New York based on vowels and accents, is it that one of you are wrong in the english language?

Wraith says you should say the word pasta the way the Italians do, yet he doesn't pronounce marinara the same way Italians do. Nor does he pronounce baguette or omlette the way the french do. And since his "american english" stemmed from British english, it begs the question WHY he isn't pronouncing everything the way the brits do.

He says that I'm making an argument FOR ebonics where because people mispronounce words it becomes okay. Like how poor inner city kids say AXE instead of ASK. I guess I'm not explaing the whole dialect/vowel thing very well, but he refuses to read the above site for fear it will bore him.

Because I am sooooo very tired of hearing that I'm not saying bagel the correct YIDDISH way and not saying pasta the correct ITALIAN way, I turn to you people - a healthy mix of Canadians vs Americans to get your take on the accents, pronunciations and dialects of our great North American land. When you Americans listen to LRR vids, do you think we Canadians are mispronouncing words, or do you chalk it up to regional differences?

[Vigafre]

I would love to discuss this topic, but I have no idea how you are pronouncing these words.

Also, I woulda read the site, but I am le tired.

[Trymantha]

PAS-ta

pa-STA
im guessing

[empath]

Agreed; this requires reference examples of audio to be properly explained us non-linguist civilians; I've dug through that website and cannot associate their written conventions to any phonemes that come to mind, and the "IPA" ciphers over in Wiktionary aren't any less obtuse.

As they always used to say in those ABC detergent ads: "I can't see the difference; can you see the difference?"

But we could probably hear the difference.




...of course, this whole dispute is moot. He's your husband, right?

So - by definition - he HAS to be wrong if he disagrees with you; that's how this works.

[TheRocket]

Apparently I am supposed to tell everyone that Wraith has an orang-mango hat, or else I am dead to him.

You'd have to check out the site to know what I am talking about for the pasta thing.. because explaining it on text will prove confusing.. but I will try. I find Americans to say (AWE) whereas most Canadians I know say (AAH) for words like Pasta, Lava etc.

Do regional and slight pronunciation differences make a word wrong?

[GreigKM]

... Michiganders all say AAH...

[TheRocket]

...of course, this whole dispute is moot. He's your husband, right?

So - by definition - he HAS to be wrong if he disagrees with you; that's how this works.

I'm sorry, do you REMEMBER who I'm married to???

[JustAName]

'sites still a bit confusing, but I'm just going to assume you say it with the same inflection the Brits say pastie. So, I'd find it a bit odd, but I wouldn't flip out or anything.

[GreigKM]

Reading through the site, I can safely say that this is at least how I pronounce things, but most everyone I've ever met in Michigan pronounces words the same... I assume it's less American/Canadian and Northern/Southern. Either way, pronunciation is HIGHLY variable for almost every word in existence depending on location, upbringing, and a lot of other stuff. So, it's hard to be saying something wrong, unless it's a proper noun.

[TheRocket]

I agree with you completely, Greig. Whereas Wraith argues with me that even though it varies from region, that you should go to where the word or "thing" was invented, such as Italy for pasta. I see that argument as completely invalid as American English does not reflect British English entirely in pronounciation, AND the fact that he doesn't say (see my previous post for examples) LOTS of words the same way as the people where the word or item originated from.

[tak197]

What? A discussion on dialects? *jumps into phonebooth* IT'S SPEECH LANGUAGE PATHOLOGIST MAN! *jumps out in same clothes*

You have dialect and idiolect. Dialect is the way a general population pronounces things in a specific area. Idiolect is the way a specific person pronounces things. Here's the key:

NEITHER ARE INCORRECT!

If you say "pah-sta" instead of "paa-sta", it's still the same. There is no wrong or right pronunciation of words, because the semantic meaning of the word comes through either way in dialect changes.

HOWEVER, when the pronunciation of a word affects the transmission of meaning, THAT is when there is a problem.

[iamafish]

wow.

just wow.

how anyone can say that a certain regional dialectic variation is /wrong/ baffles me.

NEWSFLASH EVERYONE, PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. THEY SAY THINGS IN DIFFERENT WAYS, THEY THINK DIFFERENT THINGS. THE WORLD IS FULL OF CULTURAL AND LINGUISTIC VARIATION. IF WE CANNOT AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THE PRONUNCIATION OF THE WORD PASTA THEN WE HAVE NO HOPE. I'M LEAVING TO JOIN A NEW CIVILISATION OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T SUCK.

i mean, seriously, this is even a topic for discussion?

[Myrph]

Its not actually pronounced pasta, its actually SPAGHATTA NADLE!

Besides, British English trumps all other variations in absolutely everything.

[Darkobra]

Well it's nice that he's trying to pronounce it the way it the way the natives speak it. So then I'd actually hear the correct pronounciations of Sauchiehall street, Ruchill and Milngavie.

But even then! Since my diet is 60% of this stuff, I'm with Siobhan's pronounciation of it.

[empath]

So we're saying "Pah-stah" and they're saying "Pah-stuh"? Or is it the first syllable that's in dispute?

Oh, and next time he gets on "we" should be saying it like the Italians, a) remind him of "aluminIum", "neighboUr", etc. and B) tell him HE should be saying it like the GREEKS, from whom the Italians took the word.

...of course, this whole dispute is moot. He's your husband, right?

So - by definition - he HAS to be wrong if he disagrees with you; that's how this works.

I'm sorry, do you REMEMBER who I'm married to???

I know, I know...it's gonna be hard for him; you should be supportive in this challenging time of transition he's going to have. I'm confident he can get through this unscath...well, maybe only a couple of minor scars.

Just be caring for him, and give his fevered brow a mas-sage when he gets a mee-graine from trying to adapt to his new role. (UK pronunciation, naturally. )

wow.

just wow.

how anyone can say that a certain regional dialectic variation is /wrong/ baffles me.

NEWSFLASH EVERYONE, PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. THEY SAY THINGS IN DIFFERENT WAYS, THEY THINK DIFFERENT THINGS. THE WORLD IS FULL OF CULTURAL AND LINGUISTIC VARIATION. IF WE CANNOT AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THE PRONUNCIATION OF THE WORD PASTA THEN WE HAVE NO HOPE. I'M LEAVING TO JOIN A NEW CIVILISATION OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T SUCK.

i mean, seriously, this is even a topic for discussion?

*ahem* See above... and the downers are over there; please help yourself. PLEASE.

[The Jester]

...of course, this whole dispute is moot. He's your husband, right?

So - by definition - he HAS to be wrong if he disagrees with you; that's how this works.

I'm sorry, do you REMEMBER who I'm married to???

I'm sorry, I know I'm late, but this was the first thing I thought of.. "She's married to the muffin man." "The muffin man!?" "THE MUFFIN MAN!!"

[Agloriouscuppa]

Stay strong Siobahn, everyone looks at me when I say pAs-ta as well. As well as when I say bin, aluminium and more recently, Car park, apparently they are not called that here. Language differences for the win I say!

besides, we all know who invented the language and who therefore is correct

There is nothing sarcastic in the little text!

[Metcarfre]

The fun part is, as I understand it, the "Southern American" accent is actually a holdover from when America was British... which means the are saying it the correct, British way, only at the wrong time!

I am 100% certain someone - probably Tak - will cut this to shreds.

[aeric90]

Having just come back from Boston I can't imagine how people can get their panties in a bunch over the vowel sound in a couple of words. It'd be hillarious to see someone trying to convince a Bostonian that they're saying pretty much everything wrong.

Also considering the number of root languages that birthed English no one can really claim that it's being spoken correctly by anyone

[Vigafre]

Also, some you guys are terrible at writing phonetics.

Also, I need more examples of these different pronunciations. All I see is copy-pasta.

[octopimpostor]

Tell me this, is it Missouri or missura

[Metcarfre]

It's actually pronounced ARR-can-zuhs. Funny but true.

[AmzRigh]

There's mispronunciation, and then there's regional dialects. For the most part, the latter doesn't really bother me...the case in question being one of the few exceptions. XD; I dunno why, just that "Northern A" sounds kinda derp to me.

To tangent off a bit, actual mispronunciations really get under my skin, especially foreign words, integrated or not. I mean, some languages, you can be a bit forgiving with -- Chinese, for example: tonality's a bitch, and it almost seems like they tried to make the Romanizations confusing -- but some languages are so straightforward there's not really any excuse. Example: In the recent news coverage of the Japan situation, it confused and annoyed me how they kept pronouncing "Daiichi" as "Dayachi." Where did they even get that second 'a' from? >:o

French and German, I can be more forgiving with, but if I can figure it out without ever having studied either language, it can't be that difficult. Starting with German, "ei" vs "ie" is as simple as pronouncing the long version of the second vowel; "eu" is a little weird, but just think of how "Freud" is pronounced. Also, trailing 'e's are like schwa, and 'w' is a 'v'. Simple little rules, but I hear them messed up all the time.

But, okay, I can understand that one would need to familiarize themselves with these rules first. It's not so farfetched that a person could go for a long time without encountering them, so it really is more of a nitpick on my part. Less ranty-and-nitpicky is the mispronunciation of virtually-unaltered loanwords, totally common in English, and that people have very little excuse not to know. To go back to the French I mentioned but didn't expand upon in the previous paragraph: the other day, on Mumble with my MMO group, one of 'em was asking for help with a quest, and pretty much all he could communicate to us was "fox pass." Nobody had heard of it, nobody could find anything on the wiki, and for about 10 minutes, we were all very confused. Then a few of us had an epiphany and realized he was trying to say "faux pas." ._.

What really gets me, though, is people mispronouncing things in a way that makes it clear they were just too lazy to read the word correctly, leaving entire syllables out or out-of-order when the word is right there in front of them. I can't think of any specific examples, but it's a mistake made by children who are just learning to read, and I hear adults do the same thing way too often. D:<

Okay, end rant. Sorry. Would you believe I'm not an English major? Or Linguistics? I've no good, career-oriented reason for this stuff to bother me so much. XD

[TheRocket]

Hey, Imafish, it IS a topic for discussion obviously - since we are discussing it. P.S gtfo of my thread.

Empath, the vowel in question is the (a) at the begining of Pasta. Paw-sta vs PAAsta.

Most of you have confirmed my belief that regional dialect differences do not equate to mispronunciations. Now, if only the big bad man would read this thread.

Aeric.. DO YOU LIKE TO PAHTY? LET'S GO HAVE A PAHTY! BOSTON STYLE PAHTY FOR EVERYONE! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Wraith would say it's a mispronunciation of the word party, where as the rest of us would chalk it up to their accent/regional dialect.

To be clear to everyone, I'm NOT looking to see who is right with their pronunciation of pasta. I feel that either way is correct and it's jsut a regional difference, whereas Wraith thinks if you aren't saying it the way the people who invented pasta are (or himself), then you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

(Which as I pointed out is funny because he doesn't say any other "italitan " food the way the italians do, he doesn't pronounce french cuisine the way the frenhc do, and he sure as hell doesn't pronounce a lot of english words the way the Brits do.)

[Dutch guy]

There is only one way to speak English correctly, with a heavy dutch accent!