Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby epocalypse » 02 May 2011, 02:22

Bananafish wrote:
Jillers wrote:Sorry we can't all be that enlightened. It never feels fully right to celebrate a death, but when the death is of a person who has caused so much pain in the world (and personal to myself, I admit), I don't think we can help it.


The amount of people personally or directly effected by the 9/11 attacks is amazingly miniscule, the people that are out hooting and dancing in the streets and in front of the Capital have, most assuredly, not been effected. The opinions of the people that have been effected have been diluted to suit the needs of the masses- there was just a first responder on CNN was was cut off right after suggesting that we should pull out of Afghanistan.

Any empathy that Americans have is shallow and has been cultivated by the mass media for the past decade for this exact moment- for this orgy of nationalism. This death won't effect our foreign policy or military action, and our current legitimate threats will not change. it is just the most vulgar and embarrassing part of america in full display and asking for a moment of self-reflection or suggesting that maybe doing the running man outside the capital over a persons's death is a bit gauche means you are just raining on everyones parade and idk maybe relax a little?? we did it man!! y-yeah!!


I call bullshit, bannanafish. Do you know how many people WERE directly effected by the attacks? I mean people who either lost their lives, family members lives, had traumatic experiences, had to move, or had worsened physical health directly because of the attacks? If you even fucking dare say something like ~3000 I will come through the Internet and bitchslap you. I was born in DC, have friends and family and have lived in both DC and New York (all over the state, butthe city as well). I saw the planes hit live on TV, and have personally experienced how far reaching the medical effects of the attack were (living in the financial district, less then 5 blocks from Ground Zero, five years after the attacks, I suddenly had a strong resurgence of asthma, which my doctor informed me was due to the air quality of the area still being effected by the attacks; I had to start using an inhaler for the first time in ten years). I can guarantee you, with even the most conservative interpretation of the words "directly effected" at least every person in NYC on the day, every first respondent, an every person in downtown DC on the day, was directly effected. We are talking about millions of people, and for the record, ending someone like Osama bin Laden's influence by any means (though I truly would have prefered to seen him tried in NYC) is one of the few acts of war which I think can be unequivocally proven to be an act in the interest of peace. This is celebrating the death of a monster and the symbolic defeat of his ideals of hate and terror. A surgical strike with virtually no loss of innocent life. Does it make the wars worth it, or make up for the loss of lives on both sides, or excuse indefinite continued presence in Afghanistan and Iraq? No, of course not. But it gives many a sense of closure that they fought they'd never have, and our nations new avenues to more peaceful resolution and more prompt pull out from the current conflict.

This is not about the death of a man, it's about the death of an icon, someone who much of the world saw a symbol of fear and hate, and more importantly than that, a man who wore that badge with pride. You can claim any high and mighty ideas of enlightenment but if you try to sell this as the petulant, vengeful joy of bloodlust you are wrong. This people celebrating the death of a monster, of the boogieman, of a specter they lived in fear of.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Nevrmore » 02 May 2011, 02:27

I love that every forum I check out for this small contingent of people who insist that it is barbaric to be happy over Bin Laden's death. I mean I've seen some pretty terrible people nonetheless get white knighted before but I think this one takes the trophy.

In any case the best thing about this news is it makes Obama's cheerfulness over the past week in relation to the resurgence in popularity of the birther movement that much more hilarious. Can't think of a better way to say fuck you to the crazies that oppose him.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Alja-Markir » 02 May 2011, 02:51

Theremin wrote:Oh, but couldn't you try?

Use your words.

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?

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Nevrmore » 02 May 2011, 02:52

Hey it's Rasputin. S'up Rasputin
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby empath » 02 May 2011, 03:20

Okay, kiddies. Sorry to hijack (er) this thread briefly, but as someone once said "Shit be happenin', brutha!"

A lot's going on in this portentous month, just a couple of days into it.

I've seen the most charming and entertaining - and above all else, HUMAN - behaviour from a head of state in decades, a minor nation that a lot of people on this forum are connected to is going into what could be a momentous election that changes that country radically (and that's potentially for better or worse), a criminal of the highest order received the ultimate comeuppance (more on that later), and...

...well, something personally pivotal happened.

I'm not sure how much detail can be provided, but if you know me at all, I prefer to err on the side of caution, so I'll just say this - I got an offer for something that could be very, very awesome.

But it will require much of me, and one of the biggest tolls will be to my free time. And since the single biggest destination I devote my leisure time to is browsing, reading and posting HERE...

...well, let's just say that this is not going to be my PENultimate post. :?

I love this place. I love you all, even - no ESPECIALLY those of you who consistently piss me off. :) You're a little more than just friends, you're people that have helped me in hard times, and whom I've helped in similarly hard times. We've laughed, theorized, created, commiserated, argued and fought together, and every moment of it has been wonderful.

...and it is with MUCH reluctance and no small amount of regret that I have to say 'bye-bye'; I have to take a rather massive amount of time (and energy) that I devote to this place, and pour instead into...'this new endeavour'.

I'll miss you all, and dearly hope the time when I'll be able to spend a little while chatting here again will come soon, but if nothing else, the future isn't set in stone. (hell, my Inner Cynic™ is convinced this thing is gonna bomb worse than Beta and I'll be living in these fora again in no time! ;) )

Wish me well, and know I hope nothing but the very best for you all!

And well, I don't like the finality of 'good-bye' so let's just leave it with au revoir, or auf wiedersehen.
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---

NOW, back to our regularly scheduled forum topic:

One word: (at least to start) GOTCHA.

That was the first thought I had when the news broke (in the middle of 'negotiations' for the Thing™ mentioned above, no less).

As you may be aware, I am NOT an American, and *I* felt satisfaction.

No, this isn't giving us our travel toothpaste back, and the insurgents aren't going to magically lay down their arms and capitulate, but it's a milestone. Justice - as much as it could have been attained - has been done.

And B'fish? You've made some pretty valid points here in this very thread, but you're using a 5-pound sledge to put in a finishing nail.

Because the effects of the 9/11 attack were NOT "limited". Directly influenced? I live 2300+ km from the Twin Towers site, in a different nation, and I WAS DIRECTLY AFFECTED by the death of my first cousin.

And forget the people of New York City (one of the biggest cities in the WORLD) and the District of Columbia and those 'one step away' that were affected. There's also the thousands upon thousands of travelers ALL OVER THE DAMN WORLD who were plunged into chaos and uncertainty for SEVERAL DAYS because of this? People who worried "Are we next? Could there be hijackers on OUR plane? Will they even let us finish our trip? What's going to happen to us?" Forget what Wraith proposed, I suggest you come up to Gander, Newfoundland, and tell the townspeople HERE that 'they were not directly affected'...

That is what this 'man' did; he killed thousands in one effort, and struck fear across the planet; he provoked wars.

...and he did it all with the comfort and cowardice of an armchair general.

Bin Laden was NOT on one of the planes; he did NOT make 'the ultimate sacrifice' he called upon many others to do; he stayed behind like the entitled noble he was born.

And he got his just desserts.


And, in closing, since I'm just such a /b/tard, I'll pump this post up by a few thousand words, metaphorically speaking. ;)

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...and Alja? I'll see all of yours and raise you this:

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby goat » 02 May 2011, 04:28

hurray! we killed a dude....?

As good a thing as removing a terrorist mastermind is, I still feel a little uneasy about celebrating loss of life.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Nevrmore » 02 May 2011, 04:57

goat wrote:hurray! we killed a dude....?

As good a thing as removing a terrorist mastermind is, I still feel a little uneasy about celebrating loss of life.

This is the core problem, see. I'm sure that a large section of people are celebrating because they just wanted "that dirty sand nigger dead," and that is reprehensible. But let's face it, it would have been great if we caught the guy and was able to bring him to trial. Would have been an awesome outcome. But the world isn't sunshiney like that. The fact is that a firefight broke out in the mansion. It is really annoying to see people try to argue that the celebration of the death of an "old man on a dialysis machine" is morally bankrupt. It's the type of spin I'd expect FOX News to pull.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Elomin Sha » 02 May 2011, 05:03

I'm going to stay away from military shooters on XBOX Live for teh next few days. I think Obama will be safe to go for a second term now.

Where's that gif of Obama kicking the door open from?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby aeric90 » 02 May 2011, 05:28

Mixed feelings about this...

On of my personal heroes is Mark Bingham, one of the pioneers of the gay rugby movement who died helping to bring down United 83. We honour him every 2 years with a memorial world cup. In a way his death, and all the others who died pointlessly in the 9/11 attacks, has now been avenged and I hope those affected find peace in this, particularly his mother who attends the tournament and brings strength to all of us.

That being said, and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned in other posts, I'm not in the mood to celebrate. Bin Laden was no longer directly leading Al-Qaida. Surely being shot during a US operation is only going to raise him as a martyr and might insight a resurgence during the volatile changes going on in the Muslim world. On top of that the US operation was conducted with no forewarning to the Pakistani government and while that probably ensured that it was a success, it also won't make diplomatic relationships with a potentially aggressive nuclear power all that much easier. Also there's the matter of how the world's most wanted man could be holed up in a mansion in an affluent region next to a military training base 1 hour away from Islamabad and no one seemed to be aware of it.

In my opinion this is not a time to celebrate. It would have been best if Bin Laden had died of natural causes.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Elomin Sha » 02 May 2011, 05:36

Wraith wrote:Pickled the body?


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Pickled Osama.
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aeric90 wrote:
On of my personal heroes is Mark Bingham, one of the pioneers of the gay rugby movement who died helping to bring down United 83.


On Twitter @Mattarz wrote: So, gays admitted to the US Military and less than a year later, Osama's dead? Bitches get stuff done.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 02 May 2011, 05:47

Elomin Sha wrote:Where's that gif of Obama kicking the door open from?

It's from a fake video of him ostensibly getting irritated by questions during a presentation. You can literally type "osama kick door" into youtube and get the video...and a dozen or so disproving its validity.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby The Jester » 02 May 2011, 05:58

I'mma put on my cloak of raven feathers for this one.


A figurehead has been killed. Since it was a military strike on a protected compound, expecting him to be brought in alive was, realistically, extremely unlikely. I would go so far as to say that his getting shot was inevitable.

The scale of death and chaos for which he is responsible, as the person giving the orders, makes him more than deserving of death in my opinion. But there is a problem.

He was a product of an environment, one which will certainly have produced a replacement already. His death will also have martyred him in the eyes of his followers and sympathisers, and that is an incredibly dangerous thing to have happened. The only situation I can imagine where that wouldn't have happened is extremely unlikely, and would have required him on his own without coercion to have recanted his beliefs publicly and to the world at large.

I fully expect that plots of revenge are already being woven by his supporters and replacement/s. Fact is, what he's responsible for will also make those plots almost entirely unlikely to succeed, and I find the notion that his actions have pre-emptively scuppered any attempts at retribution for his death almost impossible to be quite amusing. The world's security and intelligence organisations will be on high alert (or they should be) and they'll have things in place that should catch those machinations of revenge as they develop.


In summary, then; His death was inevitable and I regret his martyrdom but not his end, I expect plots of retributive terrorism will be uncovered and stopped in the near future, and I don't really expect anything much to have changed for all that's happened.


There, I can take off this uncomfortable cloak now. Damn, that thing's got quills poking you from everywhere. :P
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby The Jester » 02 May 2011, 06:04

Also, hold on. Don't think you can slip this by me, you sly old dog, you. Image
empath wrote:...well, something personally pivotal happened.

I'm not sure how much detail can be provided, but if you know me at all, I prefer to err on the side of caution, so I'll just say this - I got an offer for something that could be very, very awesome.

But it will require much of me, and one of the biggest tolls will be to my free time. And since the single biggest destination I devote my leisure time to is browsing, reading and posting HERE...

...well, let's just say that this is not going to be my PENultimate post. :?

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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby sdhonda » 02 May 2011, 06:35

Stratfor reports that some of Bin Ladens children, wives and close friends have since been arrested by Pakistani authorities.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Wraith » 02 May 2011, 06:43

Lyinginbedmon wrote:I might have preferred it if he'd been taken alive to spend the rest of his days rotting in a dank cell somewhere.

I'm sure there's arguments that he could have escaped, or that Al Qaeda would focus on freeing him or whatnot that could potentially make it wiser to just outright kill him, but I can't condone the murder of anyone.


Lyinginbedmon wrote:That...really doesn't make me feel better here...

One person kills another person, that's murder, that's killing.


I’m going to tell you the same thing I tell the “meat is murder” people: murder is the unlawful, premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Whether you agree or disagree with the ethics of a kill, if the person who performed it had the legal authority to do so, it’s not murder. And don’t tell me “oh, you’re just play semantics,” because it’s not. You use the word murder to make it sound bad because that word carries more weight than “kill.” And there’s a reason for that. If it’s semantics, if it doesn’t matter, then stop using the word. Just say “it’s killing.” If you feel like that doesn’t have quite the same oomph; well, there’s a reason for that.

Lyinginbedmon wrote:I don't have much of any emotional attachment to either Bin Laden, 9/11, or even the Iraq war…
… but violence is just unconscionable to me.


Think there might be a correlation there?

Alja, I don’t see anyone parading the bastard’s body through the streets. This wasn’t some uninformed lynch-mob meeting out street justice. This was a retribution for an atrocity. We’ve spent a decade burying the loved ones we’ve had to say goodbye to because of this man. We’re more than entitled to a little celebration over finally taking him out.

goat wrote:hurray! we killed a dude....?

As good a thing as removing a terrorist mastermind is, I still feel a little uneasy about celebrating loss of life.


Yea, well, after ten years of morning that very thing, I’m more than ready for a little celebration. Particularly over the man who CAUSED so much loss of life.

aeric90 wrote:That being said, and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned in other posts, I'm not in the mood to celebrate. Bin Laden was no longer directly leading Al-Qaida. Surely being shot during a US operation is only going to raise him as a martyr and might insight a resurgence during the volatile changes going on in the Muslim world. On top of that the US operation was conducted with no forewarning to the Pakistani government and while that probably ensured that it was a success, it also won't make diplomatic relationships with a potentially aggressive nuclear power all that much easier.


Hey may not have been directly leading Al-Qaida when we killed him, but he was when they killed three thousand of my countrymen.

Good enough for me.

P.S. Didn’t Obama say that the Pakistani government considered this a victory?


Empath, I’m gonna miss you, dude. I’m not sure why you chose THIS thread of all places to say your goodbye, but I’m glad I caught it. I wish you’d expand on why you’re leaving. Regardless, be well brother.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 02 May 2011, 06:57

Wraith wrote:
Lyinginbedmon wrote:I might have preferred it if he'd been taken alive to spend the rest of his days rotting in a dank cell somewhere.

I'm sure there's arguments that he could have escaped, or that Al Qaeda would focus on freeing him or whatnot that could potentially make it wiser to just outright kill him, but I can't condone the murder of anyone.


Lyinginbedmon wrote:That...really doesn't make me feel better here...

One person kills another person, that's murder, that's killing.


I’m going to tell you the same thing I tell the “meat is murder” people: murder is the unlawful, premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Whether you agree or disagree with the ethics of a kill, if the person who performed it had the legal authority to do so, it’s not murder. And don’t tell me “oh, you’re just play semantics,” because it’s not. You use the word murder to make it sound bad because that word carries more weight than “kill.” And there’s a reason for that. If it’s semantics, if it doesn’t matter, then stop using the word. Just say “it’s killing.” If you feel like that doesn’t have quite the same oomph; well, there’s a reason for that.

Lyinginbedmon wrote:I don't have much of any emotional attachment to either Bin Laden, 9/11, or even the Iraq war…
… but violence is just unconscionable to me.


Think there might be a correlation there?

I don't disagree with the ethics of a kill, I disagree with the ethics of any kill. Death is unpleasant at the best of times, and man have but a short time upon this earth normally, for it to be cut short for any reason whatsoever sits poorly with me regardless of circumstance.

The reason "murder" and "kill" don't share the same sensation of severity is societal, not moral, we've dreamt up a definition to say "killing someone else is bad" and "killing the enemy soldiers is good" because as empathetic creatures death is never comfortable for us, relegating one to a victory is a simple psychological method all around us today that helps ease our minds about it. The action and the consequences are the same. If I grab your car keys, drive away with your car, and never return it, it's theft regardless of the situation beforehand. If someone runs around your neighborhood shooting people, it isn't a positive event in any way shape or form, because people are dying.

As I said, I'm not a pacifist, I won't stop anyone from taking up arms against villains of any sort, but I wouldn't have pulled the trigger either. If there was some meeting to decide whether that trigger should have been pulled at all, I would have left the room as voting began on the matter.

I also can't deny that there must surely be some happiness from the death of a man so thoroughly linked with the deaths of tens of thousands of people, but in finding him and dismantling much of his support hundreds of thousands have died as well (Yes, a lot of them on his side, I know).

Is killing someone in retaliation so much better than outright killing someone? I personally don't think so, I think a heart that stops beating and a brain that stops thinking are just as unfortunate and negative whether they threw the first punch or not. Maybe that's because I've never been in much of a situation of superior physical power over someone, maybe it's because I spent a large portion of my childhood being bullied by such characters, I honestly don't know, I just cannot condone the killing of anyone for any reason and, for me at least, doing so under the command of an army or a government is no different than plain, cold-blooded, murder. I know Wraith and I come from very different backgrounds and perspectives and so I sincerely doubt we'll ever see eye-to-eye here, but whilst he can justify the deaths involved both personally and around this individual, I cannot.

Evidently I'm not the only one here with such or similar sensations.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Arius » 02 May 2011, 06:59

When Everton FC wipes the floor with Man U, I'm not directly affected. I still celebrate.

Osama killed more than just the 3000 on 9/11, you know? People who try to act shocked and confused by people celebrating are just being idiots.
A shameless murderer is dead. I'm not shedding any tears.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Arius » 02 May 2011, 07:07

H̼̮̖͓̻ͮ̀ͬ̓e̟̦͉̾̔̀ͣ͆̄ ͚̤̈̉ͦ̎ͭ̚c̰̠͚̜̹ͪ̐̎̃ͅo̗͌͛ͥ͑m̍ͬͥ̚e͍̱̲̤͚̹͔͛s͚̱̤͚̲̭̗̃̎ͭ̚.̘̫̖̮̠͒̔.̝̹̟̳͚̂̆̋͌̐̚.̬͓̰̃̑
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby King Kool » 02 May 2011, 07:07

Lying, it might be quicker to identify as a pacifist.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 02 May 2011, 07:12

I'm not, I recognise that there are times where diplomatic action cannot suffice and where violence becomes necessary, whether I personally would be able to take that violent action or not. If someone tries to mug me, I'm going to fight back.

I'm not a pacifist, I just can't condone violence, murder/killing, war or any of their ilk.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Arius » 02 May 2011, 07:22

You're not a pacifist, but you're pacifist?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Mowinckel » 02 May 2011, 07:26

Bin laden.... bin laden...
who was Osama again?
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Vanguard » 02 May 2011, 07:44

He's a "techical pacifist", then. He's willing to use violence but not actually kill anyone. You know, like Batman.

Meanwhile, on-topic, everything there is to say has already been said. There was a very special place in one of the circles of hell reserved for Mr. Bin Laden and it's nice to see that he's finally occupying it.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby AlexanderDitto » 02 May 2011, 07:53

I basically just agree with Aeric.

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Wraith wrote:
Bananafish wrote:This death won't effect our foreign policy or military action, and our current legitimate threats will not change.


We KILLED the leader of Al-Qaeda. Our biggest threat DID just change.


This is probably the only thing Wraith said that I disagree with. Our biggest threat in the past 5+ years wasn't Bin Laden, and it's questionable to what capacity he actually mattered to the organization, other than as figurehead. Like saying that taking down Queen Elizabeth would knock out all of Great Britain.

Also the part about Bin Laden being in hell now. But we'll leave that topic for the religion thread. :/

But most everything else he said I agree with.

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While I appreciate and agree with the sentiment that violence and killing should be avoided, when it comes down to it, scarcity of resources and threat of mortality lead to some people, bad people, using violence and killing to act in unethical ways, and while often there are alternatives, there are situations in which the use of force is warranted against those people. It's a delicate balancing act, like so many things in life seem to be.

I think it's a bit foolish to lament killing a man who was profoundly bad, instead wishing that he had been put on trial and then left to rot in a cell somewhere. Yes, I can understand the theoretical argument: that no man should be denied trial, that that way lies a slippery slope to a dangerous world. But in reality? The actions of this man were far beyond the capacity for trial, and were unquestionable and clear. We are not so foolish, the thinkers among us, that we cannot distinguish those cases in which an exception can be made without sliding down the slope.

Besides, if the cost of extracting Bin Laden alive would have been the death of even one more innocent person, would it have been worth it? I don't think so.

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As for Alja's concern, I am only able to postulate that his frustration stems, as does often mine, from the seeming futility war, and killing in general. At some level, it's all a game, a senseless sort of game with no real winners and no real point. War has not progressed, fundamentally, beyond lining up soldiers in a field and having them shoot at each other until everyone is dead. Sure, we now have tactical forces and technological weapons, but when you boil it down, whoever has the most/best men/guns/tanks/nuclear bombs wins, and the only thing left over is a bunch of death and squandered resources.

All of war could be mapped to a game of billiards, or chess, and nothing would change. Computers could just run simulations that determine who will win every battle, every skirmish, and purely logical beings would just accept the results and move on and focus on the things that actually matter. Humans are frustratingly illogical, and war is one of the worst examples of this.

...but that's the way it is. People are not purely logical. Many are ruled almost completely by emotion, and among those emotions are hatred and greed and cruelty. There will always be some people out there willing to cause harm to get what they want, and so there must be people to stop them. I think our current best response is for tactical intelligence gathering and targeted, reasoned strikes that do their best to minimize death and damage while preventing to those who act in an unethical way from harming others.

In essence, I wish we didn't have to have a military, or fight wars, but I recognize why, in our current world, they're necessary. I only hope that as we push forward as a species, we can push toward a world where they're not as necessary, where people operate based on reason.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden Confirmed Dead!!!!

Postby Elomin Sha » 02 May 2011, 08:15

He's dead Jim.
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