California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Drop by and talk about anything you want. This is where all cheese-related discussions should go
User avatar
Sieg Reyu
Posts: 2930
Joined: 16 Oct 2006, 12:24
First Video: How to Talk Like a Pirate
Location: State of Confusion
Contact:

California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Sieg Reyu » 27 Jun 2011, 20:16

Linkage

The Supreme Court today struck down a California law that banned the sale of violent video games to minors. Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for a 7-2 majority, said the law was "unprecedented and mistaken."

"No doubt a State possesses legitimate power to protect children from harm," he wrote, "but that does not include a free-floating power to restrict the ideas to which children may be exposed."

In a forceful opinion, Scalia noted that books given to children have "no shortage of gore."

"Grimm's Fairy Tales ... are grim indeed. As her just deserts for trying to poison Snow White, the wicked queen is made to dance in red hot slippers "till she fell dead on the floor."

He said the California Act is the latest in a "long series of failed attempts to censor violent entertainment for minors," and he said the state had not demonstrated any direct causal link between playing violent video games and actual harm to minors.

Scalia said the video-game industry has in place a voluntary rating system designed to inform consumers and store owners about which games contain a high degree of violence. He said that parents "who care about the matter" can readily evaluate the games their children bring home.
The games at issue were defined as depicting "killing, maiming, dismembering or sexually assaulting an image of a human being" to children. They included games such as Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Postal 2, Duke Nukem 3D, and Mortal Kombat.

The California law was passed in 2005, but legal challenges have stopped it from ever taking effect. It provides for up to a $1,000 fine to retailers who sell violent video games, although the fine does not apply to sales clerks if they have no ownership interest in the business. Nine other similar laws were passed across the country, but they were all blocked from taking effect.

California had asked the court to carve out a new exception to the First Amendment -- much like it has for obscenity -- that would cover the sale to minors of the violent games.

California Deputy Attorney General Zackery P. Morazzini asked the court "to adopt a rule of law that permits states to restrict minors' ability to purchase deviant, violent video games that the legislature has determined can be harmful."

The state argued that a juvenile's brain has not fully matured enough to handle behavior control, and that the violence in the games could have a more lasting negative effect than it would for an adult. The California legislature, in passing the law, considered numerous studies that established a link between playing violent video games and an increase in aggressive thoughts, anti-social behavior and desensitization to violence in both minors and adults.

But the industry struck back. Paul Smith,a lawyer representing video game makers, told the court it is up to parents, not the government to protect children from the games.

Smith said the law "is the latest in a long history of overreactions to new expressive media."

After the releases of the opinion Bo Anderson, President & CEO of Entertainment Merchants Association that challenged the law released a statement. "We are gratified that our position that the law violates the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of expression has been vindicated and there now can be no argument whether video games are entitled to the same protection as books, movies, music, and other expressive entertainment."

In lively prose Scalia discussed the history of violence in children's books and fairy tales.

"Hansel and Gretel kill their captor by baking her in an oven," he wrote.

But Justice Samuel Alito, while agreeing that the California law should be overturned took issue with comparing books with videos. Writing for himself and Chief Justice John Roberts, Alito said the law was vague but he said he would not "squelch" future legislative efforts to deal with what is perceived by some to be a developing social problem.

"In some of these games," Alito writes, "the violence is astounding. Victims by the dozens are killed with every imaginable implement, including machine guns, shotguns, clubs, hammers, axes, swords and chain saws."

Alito says that the average reader of a passage in Crime and Punishment will not experience the description of violence in the same way if he were participating in a violent video game.

"Compare that reader with a video-game player who creates an avatar that bears his own image;who sees a realistic image of the victim and the scene of the killing in high definition and in three dimensions; who is forced to decide whether or not to kill the victim and decides to do so; who then pretends to grasp an axe, to raise it above the head of a victim and then to bring it down."

Alito suggested other laws, differently framed, might pass constitutional muster.

Opponents of censorship believe that there should be no special category for the video games. "Violence has been a category of speech that has always enjoyed full protection," said Joan Bertin of the National Coalition Against Censorship.

"The courts have always understood that discussions and depictions of violence in art, literature, film, theater have a great deal of value. It would be impossible to draw a line between good violence and bad violence."

American consumers spend more than $10 billion a year on video games


Not included in the video is Diane's Sawyer's reaction after the segment which was one of utter shock and belief. Her pants were no doubt filled with bricks. I loled.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Tycherin
Posts: 835
Joined: 30 Mar 2011, 13:27
First Video: The Lich King's New Wrath
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Tycherin » 27 Jun 2011, 20:30

Last semester, I wrote an essay for mt ethics class about why video games should be free from censorship. As such, I've been pretty interested in this case, and I was extremely relieved to see the verdict. The majority opinion echoed what I wrote in my essay pretty closely. Hm... Maybe I should become a pundit, then.
User avatar
tak197
Feito Com Fruta
Posts: 9010
Joined: 13 Mar 2007, 19:20
First Video: How To Talk Like A Pirate
Location: Stroudsburg, PA
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby tak197 » 27 Jun 2011, 20:33

The thing to remember is that you really shouldn't sell or market mature video games to children, BUT the responsibility of determining the content your kids see lays SOLELY on the parent. I see the whole law as a feeble attempt at overprotective parents shirking responsibility for their children.

If you are a parent, instead of complaining about the things your children learn from other sources, TEACH THEM ALL SIDES.
Image
Image
User avatar
AlexanderDitto
Better Than the First Alexander
Posts: 4382
Joined: 28 Nov 2007, 07:41
First Video: Desert Bus 1: The Original!
Location: Phailadelphia (Again)
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby AlexanderDitto » 27 Jun 2011, 20:33

I didn't think the past week's news could get better. But I forgot, the Supreme Court is now awesome.

Free speech triumphs again! Thank goodness.

Also, according to the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, some of the briefs they filed were cited by the courts, which is pretty cool. The decision would probably make for an interesting read. I think Scalia had a lot of fun writing this one.

It's also delightful to see how the news media tries to cover the story, what with their piss-poor understanding of what video games actually are.

Reporter: "What do you think about the bleeps and the bloops, mother-of-3?"
Mother: "Why, I think they're just terrible!"
Reporter: "But these terrible things are now UNLEASHED UPON OUR CHILDREN. Oh and apparently video games are a 23 billion dollar a year industry. WHO KNEW PAC MAN COST SO MUCH?! :O"
User avatar
Sieg Reyu
Posts: 2930
Joined: 16 Oct 2006, 12:24
First Video: How to Talk Like a Pirate
Location: State of Confusion
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Sieg Reyu » 27 Jun 2011, 20:35

Also, they cited Duke Nukem 3D, in case you didn't catch that.
Image Image Image
User avatar
tak197
Feito Com Fruta
Posts: 9010
Joined: 13 Mar 2007, 19:20
First Video: How To Talk Like A Pirate
Location: Stroudsburg, PA
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby tak197 » 27 Jun 2011, 20:39

I especially like where Scalia stated, "JUSTICE ALITO recounts all
these disgusting video games in order to disgust us — but disgust is not a valid basis for restricting expression."
Image
Image
User avatar
JackSlack
Posts: 4572
Joined: 15 Oct 2010, 19:46
First Video: ENN, but I forget which.
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby JackSlack » 27 Jun 2011, 20:46

That said, I take the point one critic made: The majority opinion DOES discriminate between video games and other speech. While right now, this is a better decision than we'd might have hoped for, it does not close out the possibility of a better written law taking another swing at it in the future.
User avatar
Sieg Reyu
Posts: 2930
Joined: 16 Oct 2006, 12:24
First Video: How to Talk Like a Pirate
Location: State of Confusion
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Sieg Reyu » 27 Jun 2011, 20:52

I don't know about that. If I know my poorly written legal dramas, which I believe I do, this ruling can now be used in the future against other attacks against' video games freedom of speech. Anyone who has any idea wanna verify that?
Image Image Image
User avatar
Master Gunner
Defending us from The Dutch!
Posts: 19383
Joined: 29 Oct 2006, 12:19
First Video: How To Talk Like A Pirate
Location: In Limbo.

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Master Gunner » 27 Jun 2011, 20:57

I'd have to read it when I'm not about to fall asleep to say for sure. However any distinction made in law is something that can be exploited. And it's not like the US doesn't have experience in restricting free speech they don't like anyways.
TheRocket wrote:Apparently the crotch area could not contain the badonkadonk area.
Twitter | Click here to join the Desert Bus Community Chat.
User avatar
JackSlack
Posts: 4572
Joined: 15 Oct 2010, 19:46
First Video: ENN, but I forget which.
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby JackSlack » 27 Jun 2011, 22:37

CS Monitor did a good job with explaining it. Basically, the California law is toast. And the majority opinion was pretty clear that video games are protected speech. Buuuuut...

Two concurring opinions disagreed, arguing that the problem with the law was its vagueness. They'd have no problem with a more precisely worded law that was clearer in what it would ban. While any prosecuting lawyer can probably use the majority view to oppose it (which was firmer in its tone against such bans) it's worth noting that even Scalia argued games were not on a par with great literature, and that's a tiny division a good lawyer could exploit.

In addition, there's an acknowledged weak point in the majority opinion: It's hard to argue that the state CAN legislate on speech with regards to sex, but not with regards to violence. That's a really good point, and expect it to be the wedge those who would wish to ban both will attack in future attempts.
User avatar
Elomin Sha
Posts: 15774
Joined: 22 Feb 2008, 05:14
First Video: Max Effect
Location: Woodford Green, England
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Elomin Sha » 27 Jun 2011, 23:51

I've been trying to wrap my head around this for a while. Correct me if I'm wrong.

A 12 year old can now buy an M rated game?
The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
https://displate.com/elominsha/galleries
If you need art, I take commissions, PM me.
User avatar
semysane
Posts: 663
Joined: 15 Dec 2009, 23:51
First Video: Unskippable: Star Ocean: The Last Hope
Location: Canadia
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby semysane » 28 Jun 2011, 00:38

Unlikely. Most retails don't allow that anyway.
User avatar
Elomin Sha
Posts: 15774
Joined: 22 Feb 2008, 05:14
First Video: Max Effect
Location: Woodford Green, England
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Elomin Sha » 28 Jun 2011, 00:49

Just checking, because I work at a games retailer that would make my head spin. The ratings allow me to be antagonistic to customers I don't like the look of. And if I don't want to work I just pull out the Challenge 21 initiative and hope they don't have an ID.
The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
https://displate.com/elominsha/galleries
If you need art, I take commissions, PM me.
Wolfenbarg
Posts: 272
Joined: 25 Oct 2010, 14:58
First Video: The Job
Location: Colorado Springs

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Wolfenbarg » 28 Jun 2011, 02:22

I've lived in many different places in this country, and I have yet to find a retailer that doesn't take the ESRB rating seriously. If you aren't carded for a mature game when you look younger than 30, the manager better not find out, because that cashier will be toast. I'm always asked to prove my age for M rated games, always. Making it illegal just puts artistic and economic limitations on an industry that already self regulates. That these games get into the hands of minors is the fault of parents, not the industry.
User avatar
Geoff_B
Posts: 11637
Joined: 06 Apr 2011, 13:13
First Video: Installation Anxiety
Location: Harrow, London
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Geoff_B » 28 Jun 2011, 03:52

So California narrowly avoids being twinned with Australia? :D

There are surely enough safeguards in place to not need a law at all - retailers asking for age verification, parents keeping a watchful eye on their children, clear descriptions on the game package as to its content. If everybody is sensible then the problem doesn't arise at all, right?
Twitter|Google+|Tumblr|Facebook|Steam|Skype: gmbridges

I survived spaMEGAdon and all I got was this lousy signature joke.

#TeamMonica, #TeamMaki, #TeamTavis
User avatar
xdeathknightx
Posts: 494
Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 03:22
First Video: It's Magic
Location: The Netherlands

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby xdeathknightx » 28 Jun 2011, 04:27

Elomin Sha wrote:I've been trying to wrap my head around this for a while. Correct me if I'm wrong.

A 12 year old can now buy an M rated game?

Well yes and no. In a legal manner (at least in most states, some states are different I read.) they are strictly guidelines that aren't really legally binding. But just about all major stores work on the good faith policy and will card you if they think you are underage or ask the parent/guardian present for their signature on a form saying they consent.

So the "ban" is already in place. And Scalia has stated in the decision that the videogame industry is above and beyond the music and movie industry in getting everything rated, working with retailers so they won't sell to minors and not advertising towards minors.



I myself am glad it didn't go through as well, it would have set a dangerous precedent. Mostly because it was poorly written and used some crappy research about games and violence to support it. But as someone has said they could just try to rewrite and see if that goes through, because some of their major troubles with it was that it left too much room for interpretation and a parental veto.
User avatar
Jillers
Posts: 3006
Joined: 14 Oct 2008, 19:26
First Video: How to Talk LIke a Pirate
Location: Somewhere on top of garbage
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Jillers » 28 Jun 2011, 04:39

I'm really not surprised it didn't go through honestly. Those kinds of laws have always been shot shot (As far as video games are concerned). As far as the law being more specific as to what should and should not be banned, I'm going to go with: The Supreme Court is not stupid, and, even if they don't think video games can be on the same level as great literature, they firmly recognize that the medium is used for expressions of ideas and stories the ways books, plays, and movies are.. ie: banning some things in video games means they'd then have to ban it from those media as well.
Team Cybershark

[subliminal] visit Geeking Out About [/subliminal]


~End Transmission~
Gollom
Posts: 447
Joined: 30 May 2010, 16:29
First Video: Gay Chicken
Location: Windsor, Ontario

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby Gollom » 28 Jun 2011, 05:16

Good news, not that someone won't try it again. And again. Until all the baby boomers are dead anyway. I miss when Jack Thompson tried it, though. At least he had flair in his insane crusade against freedom.
User avatar
empath
Posts: 13531
Joined: 28 Nov 2007, 17:20
First Video: How to Talk Like a Pirate
Location: back in the arse end of nowhere

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby empath » 28 Jun 2011, 05:25

So Freedom of Expression wins over the Nanny State and 'What About The Children?'

Good; I really like how Antonin illustrated what a true double-standard is being exhibited. Traditional media has been worse than the crap that Uwe Boll backs. Further, the 'Bowdlerization' of this is NOT necessarily a good thing:

"Psychoanalysts such as Bruno Bettelheim, who regarded the cruelty of older fairy tales as indicative of psychological conflicts, strongly criticized this expurgation, because it weakened their usefulness to both children and adults as ways of symbolically resolving issues."

Heck, it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE (barring lifetime solitude, which would cause other problems in development) to live a life and NOT ever be exposed to violence, cruelty and other things of a frankly horrific nature. Surely wouldn't it be better to 'wean' a developing child into the realities of the world and something even as pervasive as the cruelty and gore of nature - carnivore predators - rather than coddle and shield them until they become "an Adult"? What happens when a newly-minted High School Graduate drives off to college and chances upon seeing a hawk messily eating its robin prey on the side of the road? Or (s)he gets mugged when walking to work one day? Or a campus protestor shoves the image of a gory murder victim in Darfur in the person's face? What kind of traumatic shock is THAT going to cause [i]if the person has has NO previous exposure or context? (being taught about the 'way of the world', good vs. evil, ethics, free will, etc. etc.)


And yes, this just involves America's vaunted First Amendment - striking down a government law banning propagation of violent media (in one form) to 'undeveloped' children; the vendor is STILL free to hold it's OWN policy restricting sale of certain things to minors - the seller is always free to refuse.

And of course, if a PARENT doesn't want their child buying violent media, they could...you know...BE A DAMN PARENT. Notwithstanding the argument that sheltering their offspring from such things could be hindering their development...
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
tak197
Feito Com Fruta
Posts: 9010
Joined: 13 Mar 2007, 19:20
First Video: How To Talk Like A Pirate
Location: Stroudsburg, PA
Contact:

Re: California's Video game hatin' gets overthrown

Postby tak197 » 28 Jun 2011, 14:42

gbridges wrote:So California narrowly avoids being twinned with Australia? :D

There are surely enough safeguards in place to not need a law at all - retailers asking for age verification, parents keeping a watchful eye on their children, clear descriptions on the game package as to its content. If everybody is sensible then the problem doesn't arise at all, right?


Sadly no. Because everyone is not sensible. There really isn't a 100% foolproof way to prevent the problem, but as the decision pointed out, there really isn't going to BE a way to make it 100% foolproof way to do it without violating the Constitution. Retailers will earn money however they want, and not all parents will take an active role in teaching their kids what is and isn't appropriate. Like I said before and was said above, parents need to be parents and not force other entities to do their job for them.
Image
Image

Return to “General Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 58 guests