Norway Shooting

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sdhonda
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby sdhonda » 31 Jul 2011, 15:38

I'm told that Norway has no death penalty and that the maximum the guy can get is 21 years.

But then I do recall that Norway once made an exception.

Shame Norway isn't at war...
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby semysane » 31 Jul 2011, 15:59

sdhonda wrote:I'm told that Norway has no death penalty and that the maximum the guy can get is 21 years.

But then I do recall that Norway once made an exception.

Shame Norway isn't at war...

They could always ship him elsewhere. I'm sure pretty much any western country would be willing to stick him in a dank hole for a hundred years for them.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Master Gunner » 31 Jul 2011, 16:27

And odds are that if he does manage to survive 21 years, he won't last 24 hours in the public.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Nevrmore » 31 Jul 2011, 20:22

Seriously guys

He's going to spend at least 21 years in a very comfortable "prison" where all his needs and many of his conveniences will be attended to while he gets help.

He's not going to be shanked in the mess hall.

He's not going to be raped in the shower.

He's not going to be shipped to another country to face what you feel is more appropriate justice.

He's going to have trained professionals try to assess and fix what is wrong with him emotionally and psychologically that lead him to believing his actions were right, all in safety and comfort.

And in two decades if it's decided that the rehabilitation's been a success, he'll leave the prison and live a new, peaceful life with a low chance of any sort of vengeance being visited upon him.

And that's the way it ought to be.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby semysane » 31 Jul 2011, 20:38

Nevrmore wrote:And that's the way it ought to be.

I beg to differ. Strongly and with profanity.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Nevrmore » 31 Jul 2011, 20:50

Then you seek revenge, which is inherently unjust.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Master Gunner » 31 Jul 2011, 20:51

In an ideal world, perhaps. I am strongly in favour of rehabilitation over punishment. However people are going to be affected by this for a long time, so it is not unrealistic to assume someone isn't going to be happy with due process, and take matters into their own hands. The morality of all possible courses of action is one thing. Reality is, sadly, another, and not always open for civil debate.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby semysane » 31 Jul 2011, 20:53

Nevrmore wrote:Then you seek revenge, which is inherently unjust.

When 93 innocent people are killed, there is no justice to be had.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby tak197 » 31 Jul 2011, 20:55

Nevrmore wrote:Seriously guys

He's going to spend at least 21 years in a very comfortable "prison" where all his needs and many of his conveniences will be attended to while he gets help.

He's not going to be shanked in the mess hall.

He's not going to be raped in the shower.

He's not going to be shipped to another country to face what you feel is more appropriate justice.

He's going to have trained professionals try to assess and fix what is wrong with him emotionally and psychologically that lead him to believing his actions were right, all in safety and comfort.

And in two decades if it's decided that the rehabilitation's been a success, he'll leave the prison and live a new, peaceful life with a low chance of any sort of vengeance being visited upon him.

And that's the way it ought to be.


Okay, well as much as that makes sense, let me offer a few questions:

What if the rehabilitation ISN'T a success? Is he in rehab for another 21 years? Is he released because he "served his time"? If he is released, what if he does this again?

If you've heard of the term "penitentiary", you may not know that it is based off of the Quaker teachings that true rehabilitation from crime requires penitence, the feeling of remorse and desire to right one's wrongdoings through a total mind shift (hence the name "PENITEN-tiary"). The only thing is, penitence is a PERSONAL goal that only the self can decide upon. Based on what we know of his beliefs, that may be nearly impossible to do ever, let alone 21 years.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Nevrmore » 31 Jul 2011, 20:59

Master Gunner wrote:In an ideal world, perhaps. I am strongly in favour of rehabilitation over punishment. However people are going to be affected by this for a long time, so it is not unrealistic to assume someone isn't going to be happy with due process, and take matters into their own hands. The morality of all possible courses of action is one thing. Reality is, sadly, another, and not always open for civil debate.

I'll agree with you on that. I heard that when people thought the bombings were by a Muslim extremist organization, a group of people in London stormed a local mosque and wrecked the place. It's so radically depressing.
semysane wrote:
Nevrmore wrote:Then you seek revenge, which is inherently unjust.

When 93 innocent people are killed, there is no justice to be had.

Yes there is. It comes in the form of 21 years of rehabilitation and understanding why your actions were psychotically wrong and inappropriate.
tak197 wrote:Okay, well as much as that makes sense, let me offer a few questions:

What if the rehabilitation ISN'T a success? Is he in rehab for another 21 years? Is he released because he "served his time"? If he is released, what if he does this again?

If you've heard of the term "penitentiary", you may not know that it is based off of the Quaker teachings that true rehabilitation from crime requires penitence, the feeling of remorse and desire to right one's wrongdoings through a total mind shift (hence the name "PENITEN-tiary"). The only thing is, penitence is a PERSONAL goal that only the self can decide upon. Based on what we know of his beliefs, that may be nearly impossible to do ever, let alone 21 years.

As far as I understand it (I am by no means an expert on the Norwegian prison system), after 21 years a prisoner undergoes an in-depth evaluation. If it's determined that he is still unfit to be released back into the world, he is bounced back for an increment of 5 years. After 5 years, he's reviewed again, and if he fails he gets another 5 years. So on and so forth until such a time that it is determined that he's been rehabilitated.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Lord Chrusher » 31 Jul 2011, 23:55

Last thing I read said he would face a 30 year sentence under a terrorism law. Another option would be charging him with crimes against humanity.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Nevrmore » 01 Aug 2011, 02:31

Makes sense if there is a law like that in place; hard to argue about it being terrorism, after all.

Still. I sincerely hope that his stay in prison is comfortable and breeds a good atmosphere for him to be hopefully cured of the psychosis envenoming his brain.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Geoff_B » 01 Aug 2011, 04:49

so prison is no longer a punishment but some form of social psychological treatment?

i'm coming round to the view that he should spend the rest of his life in prison. if after his official sentence is finished he shows genuine remorse and repentance he should be moved to a more comfortable and less secure prison but releasing him back into society is not what i would consider to be a viable option.

But it's not for me to decide it's for the norway courts to decide.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Deedles » 01 Aug 2011, 06:52

In all honesty I still think that he deserves pain, but as someone, I believe Empath, mentioned earlier, he could experience no pain greater than the anguish that realization of his actions would bring him.

So, I sincerely hope that he goes through the therapy and that it works, but not for his sake.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Nevrmore » 01 Aug 2011, 11:11

Geoff_B wrote:so prison is no longer a punishment but some form of social psychological treatment?

Prison never should have come to be seen as a "punishment" in the first place.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby dackwards d » 01 Aug 2011, 19:48

I agree that prison should be a place of rehabilitation, but it does need to also be a punishment. Prison is there as a disincentive - people are less likely to commit a crime if they know there will be a punishment for being caught.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Metcarfre » 01 Aug 2011, 20:16

Someone can find the data of course, but the problem with your thought is that increased length of incarceration does not decrease crime rates.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby dackwards d » 01 Aug 2011, 20:53

Sorry, I was saying my opinion not stating fact. I don't know what exact correlation there is between the two. I do know that some people do not break the law because they do not want to deal with the repercussions of being caught be it prison time, a permanent record that makes it harder to get a job... I for one would have stabbed a lot more people were it not for the fine.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Nevrmore » 02 Aug 2011, 00:40

That's a really terrible thing to admit.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby thatlaurachick » 02 Aug 2011, 03:01

Is it? Many people would commit more crimes of there were no punishment. Admitting you think about it, but don't do said things merely makes one human.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Geoff_B » 02 Aug 2011, 03:17

having said that, in the UK at least, a small minority of people commit crimes because they WANT to be sent to prison, with all its home comforts and lawyers all waiting to fight for their "human rights". it's essentially a long-term holiday.

if prison was actually considered to be punishment, like it used to be, then maybe we'd see a cut in crime.
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby empath » 02 Aug 2011, 03:50

I find it amusing that you claim to be 'loving a psychotic nightmare' and yet find it apropos to denigrate OTHERS for their lack of...would 'altruism' be the right word here?

You can say what you want about whether my handle is suitable given my arguments here, but I challenge ANYONE ELSE here to respond affirmatively to the question "Have you ever brought about another person's death, even accidentally?"

*I* felt remorse, and expected (and in some respects, desired) punishment for what I'd wrought - in a desire to atone for my mistakes.

*Brevik* still doesn't seem to understand that what he did was even wrong.

Now I'm not a psychologist, but I'm willing to wager that he's got a minor developmental flaw that has arisen from a lack of a certain type of experience in growing up - he was never rationally punished for bad behaviour.

He was born the son of a diplomat, and even though his parents split and his nurse mother got custody, he kept in contact with this father who was living and working abroad...right up until "He later wrote that after he was caught spraying graffiti on walls, his father stopped contact with him." Not 'gave him a lecture', not cut off his allowance (I'd have likely been sending money to my son if I had a job that could afford it) and explain WHY, just close off any communication and send him adrift.

Sad, but I do feel that might have affected his development when he was an adolescent. Might have impaired the sense of right and wrong that gets instilled in most of us at that tender age.

...so he needs to learn; he needs someone to sit down with him regularly after his trial and during whatever incarceration (even mental institution - seriously, he admits committing the acts but refuses to acknowledge that they were CRIMES; that sets off the 'unfit to stand trial' warning light for me) - fuck, if he's thinking he's some kind of warrior defending Europe from 'creeping Islam', send him to the Hague to stand for WAR CRIMES, and maybe THAT will get through his delusions.

You know what ELSE would be able to chip away at his fortress-like delusions? PUNISHMENT; it's why you mother spanks you when you hurt your sibling, it's why your father grounds you and confines you to your room when you shoplift; and it's why the State puts you in prison when you COMMIT MURDER.

In all honesty, he should have undergone psychiatric assessment by now, and if - in all likelihood - he's found unable to comprehend that willfully ending the lives of seventy-seven people is "wrong", then he should be committed, undergo PROPER psychiatric rehab until such time as he has achieved this understanding, and THEN go to trial for his crimes (since he'll NOW understand what's going on). Heck, a show of remorse, regret, and/or penitence may reduce his sentence.

tl;dr he needs the metaphoric equivalent of this.¹

And since corporal punishment would be considered inhumane, we'll just have to settle with confinement...




Footnotes:
1. And yes, I remember that in the film, that didn't work out so good either, but again, metaphor. :^)
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby dackwards d » 02 Aug 2011, 04:14

dackwards d wrote: I for one would have stabbed a lot more people were it not for the fine.
Nevrmore wrote:That's a really terrible thing to admit.

I wasn't serious...
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby Geoff_B » 02 Aug 2011, 04:19

yeah, stabbing people tends to lead to a lot of paperwork...
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Re: Norway Shooting

Postby empath » 02 Aug 2011, 05:15

Sorry, dackwards - sarcasm can be an overly subtle element of speech even IRL; it's far too easy to miss it in online communications. There are measures available that serve to make clarity easier, but they're by no means accepted by 'the community' and often either misconstrued, derided or both. (not that I'm bitter or anything ;^)...)
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