Extra Credits (now at PATV!)

[thatlaurachick]

As James has stated, he and Dan are not paid *at all* for Extra Credits. The money all goes to pay Allison (i.e. James has been paying Allison out of his personal savings for a year).

[Stinkychops]

AND IF ANYONE MENTIONS THE FUCKING DEAD HORSE INTERCHANGE AGAIN I WILL MAKE A CAPE FROM THEIR SKIN AND WEAR IT TO THEIR FUNERAL!

Tough guy ey?

Look, not to say I told you so... but I told you so.

[Tycherin]

This seems like it qualifies as news in some circles, but who would report on it? The Escapist?

[Stinkychops]

This seems like it qualifies as news in some circles, but who would report on it? The Escapist?

The Escapist is throwing around the word "defamation", I'll be surprised if anyone is willing to transparently 'report' on it.

I know a guy who's working on a youtube rundown and might plug it here (watch this spot).

[Wiedergeburt]

Until this compilation of E-Mails come out I'll remain on the side of "Not informed enough to come up with an opinion"...

^ Pretty much how I feel about the situation as it stands.

[Fugiman]

This seems like it qualifies as news in some circles, but who would report on it? The Escapist?

As of right now, there is no news. There is a lot of "he said, she said" and speculation. Once any emails come out, then there will be news.

[Stinkychops]

This seems like it qualifies as news in some circles, but who would report on it? The Escapist?

As of right now, there is no news. There is a lot of "he said, she said" and speculation. Once any emails come out, then there will be news.

Emails are he said - she saids.

A person making a claim is news. Public statements from high-ups is news.

Why is it, that once it is put in an email, it magically becomes news? What makes you so sure they'll show any emails? Is this all a way of playing it down and banking on people getting bored?

[Arius]

So, Russ Pitts owes me a puppy.

[Stinkychops]

So, Russ Pitts owes me a puppy.

Wow that's so clever.

If you're employed, consider this for a moment. You make a claim, without anonymity, against your present (potentially past) employer over your wage and payment.

Is that the kind of thing you'd, as an adult, consider dicking around with?

No? Then stop making vague, bullshit analogies and sarcasm. Your bias is showing. To me you look like you're desperately clinging to a hope that this will all boil over and turn out to be one huge misunderstanding. Yep. all those content creators (employees) got muddled up!

Lets not believe all these guys without proof! Even though we're not a fucking jury and this is an internet forum discussion!

[Cybren]

Blah blah blah, dont be a baby

[Arius]

So, Russ Pitts owes me a puppy.

Wow that's so clever.

If you're employed, consider this for a moment. You make a claim, without anonymity, against your present (potentially past) employer over your wage and payment.

Is that the kind of thing you'd, as an adult, consider dicking around with?

No? Then stop making vague, bullshit analogies and sarcasm. Your bias is showing. To me you look like you're desperately clinging to a hope that this will all boil over and turn out to be one huge misunderstanding. Yep. all those content creators (employees) got muddled up!

Lets not believe all these guys without proof! Even though we're not a fucking jury and this is an internet forum discussion!

Sarcasm?

No, I hate the Escapist.

Just back when they started the Publisher's Club, I said the Escapist would start hurting financially and shit like this would happen. There was a huge conversation, the Marketing Director said I was technically right but they believed the revenue from subscribers would cover the costs. So, I said that if I was right, I wanted Russ Pitts to buy me a puppy.

[Stinkychops]

So, Russ Pitts owes me a puppy.

Wow that's so clever.

If you're employed, consider this for a moment. You make a claim, without anonymity, against your present (potentially past) employer over your wage and payment.

Is that the kind of thing you'd, as an adult, consider dicking around with?

No? Then stop making vague, bullshit analogies and sarcasm. Your bias is showing. To me you look like you're desperately clinging to a hope that this will all boil over and turn out to be one huge misunderstanding. Yep. all those content creators (employees) got muddled up!

Lets not believe all these guys without proof! Even though we're not a fucking jury and this is an internet forum discussion!

Sarcasm?

No, I hate the Escapist.

Just back when they started the Publisher's Club, I said the Escapist would start hurting financially and shit like this would happen. There was a huge conversation, the Marketing Director said I was technically right but they believed the revenue from subscribers would cover the costs. So, I said that if I was right, I wanted Russ Pitts to buy me a puppy.

Ah my bad. I remember there was a lot of uproar/ragequitting on the Escapist after that Publisher's Club rubbish. My bad, I apologise.

Blah blah blah, dont be a baby

lolwut

[Fugiman]

Why is it, that once it is put in an email, it magically becomes news? What makes you so sure they'll show any emails?

The emails will provide context for all the accusations. Of course, I am assuming that the emails won't be drastically edited since both parties will have to agree to the contents before it is published. However, right now, all I can see as confirmed fact is that the Escapist is hurting financially. The CEO has stated this. Everything else is still unverified, as you only have two parties involved, so when they disagree, you don't know which one is truth. 9 months of prior email would provide the context to determine what actually happened.

Sure, you could report that the Escapist seems in trouble, but going much further than that is just reporting on opinion. I personally don't care for that type of news, but I guess FOX gets away with it...

I believe they'll publish the emails because they both have shown desire to publish the emails. They both seem to feel like it will help their case. However, if they don't, then yes we'll have to go on what we know.

[Drinnik]

Know what I've learned from all this and the Notch/Scroll thing? Geeks don't know when to keep things private.

Why didn't he just say, "For reasons between us and the Escapist, we're not going to be showing Extra Credits on their site anymore. Look for us on YouTube!" isnstead of airing their dirty linen in public and making both themselves and the Escapist look foolish?

[Stinkychops]

Know what I've learned from all this and the Notch/Scroll thing? Geeks don't know when to keep things private.

Why didn't he just say, "For reasons between us and the Escapist, we're not going to be showing Extra Credits on their site anymore. Look for us on YouTube!" isnstead of airing their dirty linen in public and making both themselves and the Escapist look foolish?

Perhaps he wants his fans to know why he's leaving, seeing as they're his source of revenue.

[Tycherin]

Know what I've learned from all this and the Notch/Scroll thing? Geeks don't know when to keep things private.

Why didn't he just say, "For reasons between us and the Escapist, we're not going to be showing Extra Credits on their site anymore. Look for us on YouTube!" isnstead of airing their dirty linen in public and making both themselves and the Escapist look foolish?

To be fair, a lot of people paid a lot of money to "save Extra Credits," and you could pretty reasonably argue that they have a right to know what on earth happened. Besides, airing their own dirty laundry seems like their prerogative. I agree that it has probably blown this whole thing out of proportion, but I guess they're allowed to do that if they want.

[thatlaurachick]

Perhaps he wants his fans to know why he's leaving, seeing as they're his source of revenue.

Um, read the EC Facebook posts and Twitter. James and Dan make $0 in any currency from this project. It all goes to Allison.

[ecocd]

I'm a little surprised at the general lack of understanding about how long getting paid as a long-term contractor for any line of business can take even when the company has money to pay them. Not 14 months, no, but it's not unusual in the least to wait at least 90 days for payment on contract work. Not in the U.S., anyway.

Heck, any line of business at all! The business world actually has terminology specialized for how long it takes to get payment. Payment cycles are written into contracts, typically, to ensure everyone knows. The U.S. Medical industry operates on a 180-day cycle now. Many hospitals don't even expect to see money from insurance companies until 6 months after services rendered. It doesn't sound like that's the case with the Escapist, but it's practically commonplace.

It's also not uncommon for someone to accept a delay in payment, as long as one believes the company is creditworthy. Was EC getting paid cash money? No, but they were getting exposure and the larger the fanbase, the more weight "from the creators of Extra Creditz" carries with regard to any new online content. There was value in continuing to create content as long as there's good faith that the money will eventually come in.

We won't speculate on LRR as per Matt's requests. We know for a fact that Graham's twitter hasn't been full of info about him applying for full-time jobs and we also know they were comfortable enough to move into a large, new office. They've diversified their delivery platforms to include The Escapist, PATV and LoadingReadyRun.com. They have their sh*t together so I'm not worried, overall.

[auberginequeen]

I always wondered how the Escapist was able to stay afloat with its current business model.

Now it seems the answer is "they weren't."

Unfortunately, no matter whose "fault" it is, this is only hurting everyone involved. I think the hostile edge in James' responses are painting him in a negative light as well, and that his forwardness and apparent insistence that The Internet know all of the details every step of the way aren't helping him or EC.

Whether or not we know all the details is kind of irrelevant to the whole legal proceeding. Yes, it was a way to find others who had not been paid, but the issue is really between EC and the Escapist, not everyone and the Escapist.

[thatlaurachick]

I'd argue that *something* needed to come out. If only for future Escapist contributors. They should know upfront that it will take 6-12 months to be paid. I have an inkling that this is not discussed in contract...

[ecocd]

I'd argue that *something* needed to come out. If only for future Escapist contributors. They should know upfront that it will take 6-12 months to be paid. I have an inkling that this is not discussed in contract...

It's worth noting that not every content creator has come out saying they're waiting 6-12 months. If I were a business, I would find the money to consistently pay my top contributors and then find money to pay everyone else.

Entertainment, in general, is boom and bust. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that the Escapist thinks they're really only making money on 3 or 4 of the series total. Those people pay the bills, so those people get paid. James specifically said he would let payments slide so The Escapist let the payments slide.

Investors believed enough in The Escapist to front 5 figures on relatively short notice when James demanded it. Investors wouldn't do that if they doubted the long-term viability of The Escapist. I don't think that the Escapist is in dire financial straits so much as not absolutely rolling in the dough. They're smart to prioritize their bills and it's not even necessarily unethical to do so.

Plus, pragmatic new content creators know they'll be riding in steerage until they prove themselves.

[MaximusXIII]

Can anyone provide a link to EC's new youtube channel?

I can only find the old one (kirithem)...

[thatlaurachick]

So, still - not telling people when you're going to pay them, and then waiting that long is ok?

I'm guessing you don't freelance, aren't self employed and probably have a savings account.

My G+ has a lot more about this. It is one thing for corporations to be on a 90-180 day pay schedule, they have the funds/resources to manage this. It's totally different randomly decide to pay an individual when you feel like it, especially when there is no stated schedule. These contributors have fronted monies to produce their shows, many times forfeiting the IP, and then not get paid, in exchange for... exposure.. but only if the E likes their show. Um, sorry. That's not good enough for me. If someone says they are going to pay me, I expect to be paid in a timely manner. I don't have the cash to sue anyone, so I don't go into business relationships that I can't afford to lose money on. Why would anyone lock themselves into a losing situation? (you do realize one can't just stop producing a show without defaulting on contract and therefore losing all bargaining power?)

[Fuzzyfreaker]

As a freelance content creator myself (in interactive media), I've been involved in situations such as this before, in which companies who have agreed to pay for my services have put a hold on deliveries based on my acceptance. Now, it does seem like there's a good deal of speculation going on, and a great deal of miscommunication, not only to the fans who are following this story, but between the Escapist and Extra Credits in the first place.

I'm currently waiting on a payment from a company who I did work for back in November, but I have agreed to wait until additional funding comes in, specifically because of their lack of a major revenue stream (in this case, a game release). I've been in situations where I waited almost two years for an (albeit small) payment. I agreed to wait in both situations, based on previous experience and faith in the company, but as a contracted worker, it's tough to handle these situations. And unfortunately, it is largely based on one's own faith in the company their providing content to.

In this case, it seems that there was no clear deal set in place between Escapist and Extra Credits regarding this fundraising campaign, which is understandable based on the time constraint to raise the money, but has ultimately led to this conflict. But it's no time to start questioning what this means for Escapist, Extra Credits, or especially LRR, because we have absolutely no idea of the actual facts.

[ecocd]

Why would anyone lock themselves into a losing situation? (you do realize one can't just stop producing a show without defaulting on contract and therefore losing all bargaining power?)

Why indeed?

The short response is that this is how business is done. It sucks big time, but that's the system.

The longer response, is it a reasonable expectation to be paid on schedule? Sure, but expectations and contractual obligations are completely different things.

If that was vitally important to the content creator, they could insist on a clause in the contract that failure to pay after 3 months results in the creator's discretion for terminating the contract. If the other party isn't willing to include that clause, then it's the creator's job to find someone else that will. If no one else will, then it's not a reasonable request in a capitalist system.

If owning the IP is important to the creator, then the creator licenses like LRR does with LoadingReadyRun. If no one will license the work, then the harsh reality is that the IP simply isn't worth the investment.

The entertainment industry is brutal and capitalism can suck sometimes, but that's how the real world works.