Occupy Wallstreet

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Wraith
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Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Wraith » 05 Oct 2011, 09:07

I thought about posting this in the vent thread, as it certainly is a vent; but I realized that if I did, people are likely going to respond and then the thread would get hijacked, and I've already been largely responsible for three being locked, so I figured I'd just make my own thread about this matter.

I am so sick and tired of this stupid "occupy Wallstreet" thing, and the associated social networking posts from people who see themselves as crusaders “fighting for a revolution.” I noticed that most of these protestors are college kids who have probably been reading about revolutionary movements that changed the world, and decided they wanted in on that. The trouble is that where most major rallies/protests/movements have set goals, these idiots really aren’t doing much more than bitching about how much things suck. THAT’S NOT PRODUCTIVE PEOPLE! You live in one of the richest, most powerful countries on the planet, and the best you can come up with and you’re screaming aimlessly at your financial market. This does NOT make you revolutionaries. It makes you spoiled hippies.

I post things like this on social networks, and people get all pissy with me and come back with all this stuff that does NOTHING to refute my point. They keep posting articles about how horrible it is living here right now, and how tragic their tale of poverty is. You think I don't know the problems facing our country? The net worth of my household is negative $30,000. Literally. I've spent the last year and a half working and paying for a Canadian to come to this country, and I have to constantly try to alleviate her fears and frustrations over the fact that we've so far been unable to obtain medical coverage. If we get sick, we have to chose between going to the doctor and eating lunch for a week. We've got one ten year old inherited Jeep that doesn't work and one ten year old Taurus with bald tires, no bearings and so many leaks that it is literally poisoning me every day. My father was an enlisted man who dropped out of High School to take care of his family when my grandmother died. I wasn't born into wealth. I get it. Things suck. I don't need an article to tell me that. Right now, my I've got 26 voice mails in my Vonage box from bill collectors to tell me that much.

So, financially speaking, things really suck right now. No one's disagreeing with that. The trouble is that standing around Wall Street screaming "THINGS SUCK! PLS TO BE FIXING KTHX!" Isn't going to actually FIX anything. It's not going to IMPROVE things. It's not going to create better jobs. It's not going to fix the economy. It's not going to make the greedy any less greedy. It is, at best, a complete and utter waste of time; and at worst counter-productive.

It's like this:

Man 1: :::looks at house::: Geeze, this house is a wreck! The siding is falling off, there roof is leaking, the paint is peeling, and it's got a smashed window. I'm surprised it's not condemned! I know! I'll get a bunch of people together, stand in front of it and scream at it!

Man 2: Wait, what? How is that going to do anything?

Man 1: Well, the house sucks. So we have to let people know that it sucks. We have to show them that we're not going to stand for this house being such a piece of shit.

Man 2: Dude, anyone who's taken one look at this place knows it's a broken piece of shit. No one's questioning that. But screaming about it isn't going to FIX it. What you need is a plan of action to repair the damage.


It's simple, folks: if you can't answer the question "what are your goals, and what is your plan for achieving these goals, or at the very least bringing us closer to said goals?" Then you are acting out of anger, frustration and fear; and that never accomplishes anything.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Metcarfre » 05 Oct 2011, 10:24

Now, I don't really have an opinion on the matter, but I do think this article is a very interesting read on the subject. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's an interesting perspective.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Wraith » 05 Oct 2011, 10:39

That article was actually quite a bit like the protests: a whole bunch of words that don't really say anything. Seems like the whole point was "these kids aren't idiots, we just don't get them!"

If you don't get them, then how do you know they're not idiots? The writer seems to have convinced himself that because the movement has validity, it's just that he, and most of the media, are not intune with internet culture, and thus doesn't get it. It's like some middle-age parent having a mid-life crisis because he doesn't get his kid's music; but he determine to accept it anyway.

But that's just not the case. See, I DO live on the net. I DO get the community. And one of the things I get is that the internet community is capable of producing every bit as much mass-stupidity as it is mass genius. The internet will show you the shocking logical-fails of supposed geniuses on minute, and then create its own, almost like it's trying to top it, in the next. This is the latter.

This isn't a group of gamers solving a genetic mystery that's stumped scientists for a decade. This is planking. It's a bunch of people screaming about how bad things are, with no set goals, no plans, no logical method; there's not even any way for them to know when they've accomplished what they set out to do. I mean, what's the endgame here? It's like they expect some old white guy in a top-hat to walk out and and announce "alright, you win. We'll stop being greedy and make the world awesome. Damn, hippy crusaders!"
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby TheRocket » 05 Oct 2011, 11:10

I've been reading and watching this whole thing and have stayed pretty quiet while I think about it. I see OCCUPY *INSERT CITY NAME HERE* events flood my walls. I see photos of people writing out how poor they are and posting it. I ... don't get it. I know I'm poor. Everyone in my social networks know I'm laughably in a shitty situation. My friends know I'm poor. The bill collectors know I'm poor. The government knows I'm poor. I fail to see how screaming even louder that I'm poor and making photos and posting them online will change anything.

I mean, the only outcome I can see is if this rolls over to election time and people cause a big enough stink so the politicians wave around their false promises to get votes. (hopefully - KEEP those promises) I could be wrong, but nothing I have seen so far is making any difference in you or me being any less poor or making any change to create jobs or lower student debts.

I .. kinda want to get behind this, because I'm all for a good pot stirring. I just can't see the point in collectivly saying "we're poor and sick of it! and sick of your greed!" is going to change anything. That's jsut stating things they already know. If anyone has any concrete evidence or proof of how things might change and what I can do to get behind it.... please post.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby empath » 05 Oct 2011, 11:18

*crickets* :roll:






But you two?

Q.

For.

FUCKING.

T.


Thank you, Wraith, for being ONE other person who would sincerely like to know the POINT of Occupy Wall Street™ beyond "Poverty SUCKS, k?"

I really have nothing more to add; I'll probably quote your two posts in the future, and I've resolved to confront ANY "OWS" supporter/participant with:

"Okay then, what's your manifesto? Show me RIGHT NOW a concrete written set of goals that you're aiming for with this 'happening'. Don't look away! You have a purpose to this right? You got into this for an actual REASON, right? Then you MUST have a goal that you're able to communicate. TELL ME RIGHT THIS INSTANT."


ADDENDUM: Okay, apparently I DID have something more to say on this. :)

I'm sorry, but he speaks quite aptly for me; until you tell me what you hope to accomplish with all this, count me out. Until you can provide me a concrete manifesto, or cogently communicate a purpose to these protests beyond "WAAAAA - poverty SUCKS!", you're not going to get anything more from me than "Yeah, and water's wet, too - Captain Obvious, now get out of the fucking street before I run your threadbare ass down."

The teachers in Wisconsin wanted to stop the State government from fucking them over with contracts and pay and whatnot.

The people of Egypt, Libya, Syria, and many more nations wanted to end government injustice and corruption (and are still working on that, but it's not 'in' so no one's reporting much on it anymore).

OWS? Apart from the aforementioned 'being broke is bad' tautology, it seems this all was organized to entrap the police into doing illegal things - congrats people; you're no better than the Westboro Baptist Church. :(

Don't get me wrong; I want to be behind this. I WANTED to lend my support ever since I'd seen the first 'notices' going around on the blogs and sites, but every time I'd asked someone "So what is all this for then? What do we hope to accomplish?" I would get the runaround.

So sorry, folks, I'm too poor to spend all day standing around doing nothing but whining about the obvious; I'm instead going to do something to improve my financial situation.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Dutch guy » 05 Oct 2011, 11:42

I agree wholeheartedly with your rant Wraith. And by any standards I'm not even that poor. (I only have about 6000 euros in student loans, and over 1000 euros currently in the bank)

The point I see with the occupy Wall street stuff is that many of those people DO expect the guy with the top hat to come out and announce he'll stop being greedy. But what gets me so rilled up is the whole point of anybody who is there, can AFFORD TO BE THERE, so by extension cannot be so desperately poor. Most of the people in that protest are (the way I see it) hippies with nothing better to do.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Matt » 05 Oct 2011, 11:46

Uhh.. huh.

It's happened:

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I agree with wraith.

I think I need to go lie down or something.

-m
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I am not angry at you.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby TheRocket » 05 Oct 2011, 11:51

The end of the world truly is coming in October =( Damn.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Master Gunner » 05 Oct 2011, 12:41

I actually think it's good for people who are upset with the corporate/government establishment to get out and protest. I support the theory behind this protest. However they have the critical drawback of appearing to composed almost entirely of people that have no actual solution other than yelling at the banks to stop being greedy. If they managed to somehow get together and agree on a list of quantifiable issues that could have reasonably being avoided, and start protesting outside of Congress for changes that will help alleviate the issues and avoid them in the future, then they might actually have a chance at accomplishing something.

As it is, while their goals are noble, they don't have a strategy, their issues are largely unquantifiable or lack any reasonable suggestions to fix it, and they're protesting in front of people who have the least motivation to change.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Fezzul » 05 Oct 2011, 12:42

Wait... Hull freezes over at least once a year, why is this a big deal?

Also I've heard a little about Wall Street and my reaction has generally been "Yeah, right... wait, what?" As in confusion. I like causes, I believe in the cause of causes and cause of causes of causes too. But like Fry and Laurie did with Ms. Thatcher, you need a coathanger to go in place of the things you knock down.

For those of you unaware of the allusion, I direct you here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5eufYYpHwE
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Geoff_B » 05 Oct 2011, 12:57

This would more than likely turn out like the London riots from a couple of months ago - out of control, vandalism and looting.

Sorry to sound negative about it but I have little faith in human nature when it congregates in huge groups with no form of control.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby empath » 05 Oct 2011, 13:23

*whew* I need that laugh; that actually felt good.

if you need one, too
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Vanguard » 05 Oct 2011, 13:40

A huh...

Okay, I'm going to go on record that I'm all for the concept of this. Hell, I'm unemployed, as of this week have negative monies and can be accurately described as being in "deep poverty", so I'm part of this 99%. That said, while I'm all for freedom of speech, making your voice heard, civil action and so on... but what's the plan here?

I realize that life has left me jaded and cynical but I see a "Step Three Profit" scenario in the works here. There is support for this. Lots of it, yet I'm yet to see any type of action beyond "make our voice heard". Well, they've heard. Now what?

There are middle steps in between the first move to take action and things changing, and I'm not sure what they are here. I'm waiting to see if somebody, anybody, will emerge out of the group as some kind of leader or rallying point with an actual plan of what to do with all of this manpower.

Until then? Well, I'm not going to be Occupying Kansas City, especially because I'm rationing gas as it is anyway. Still, I support their overall goals here in spirit, but the movement needs actual movement. Come up with a concrete course of action that might accomplish something and I'm there. In the meantime I'm going to keep worrying about at least helping me while I can.

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Fugiman » 05 Oct 2011, 13:44

While all those demands seem ludicrous, I want to take one to focus on.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

(emphasis added)

I don't think we have the power to remove all debt globally...
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Kara » 05 Oct 2011, 14:00

Vanguard wrote:
There are middle steps in between the first move to take action and things changing, and I'm not sure what they are here. I'm waiting to see if somebody, anybody, will emerge out of the group as some kind of leader or rallying point with an actual plan of what to do with all of this manpower.

Until then? Well, I'm not going to be Occupying Kansas City, especially because I'm rationing gas as it is anyway. Still, I support their overall goals here in spirit, but the movement needs actual movement. Come up with a concrete course of action that might accomplish something and I'm there.


This pretty much. I'll go check out what happens in Van cause I honestly just find the entire thing fascinating. I've been posting up bits and pieces on Facebook because I think the whole event is incredibly interesting.
I have no ideas of solutions as to how to fix a problem this massive, thus I think could add little to any legitimate conversation on the matter. That being said I'll keep watching and supporting if nothing else because I approve of information and facts of what is going on in our economic system getting as widespread as possible, and I would hope that something good will come of this when all is said and done.
If nothing else it's encouraging to see so many people unite on a front of this nature.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Master Gunner » 05 Oct 2011, 14:04

Reminds of a Model UN I went to back in High School, were the US representative decided to forgive all debt to America. I believe I did, in fact, break out laughing at the time. Now I just find a statement like that sad.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby empath » 05 Oct 2011, 14:08

Fugiman wrote:While all those demands seem ludicrous, I want to take one to focus on.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

(emphasis added)

I don't think we have the power to remove all debt globally...


Yeah, and even if we did, as desirable as that action seems, it might NOT be a good idea given the consequences.

For example, we would need to have an alternate system worked up and ready to take over the MOMENT we basically ended the existing financial system.

WHICH IS WHAT I KEEP ASKING OWS'ers for...
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Tycherin » 05 Oct 2011, 14:13

Fugiman wrote:While all those demands seem ludicrous, I want to take one to focus on.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

(emphasis added)

I don't think we have the power to remove all debt globally...

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

Well, as long as we're doing things unilaterally that we have no right/authority to do, let's get rid of war as well. And disease. And hunger. Boom! Hunger is now illegal in the whole world. Because the US can do that.

empath wrote:Yeah, and even if we did, as desirable as that action seems, it might NOT be a good idea given the consequences.

For example, we would need to have an alternate system worked up and ready to take over the MOMENT we basically ended the existing financial system.

WHICH IS WHAT I KEEP ASKING OWS'ers for...
"You wanna do <bluesky dream idea>? HOW?"

I have an alternate proposal. Instead of getting rid of debt, we just get rid of currency. That way, we already have the barter system ready to go as an alternate system. Problem solved! Currency is basically just Wall Street's means of keeping down the lower classes, right? /sarcasm
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Dutch guy » 05 Oct 2011, 14:15

One tiny little question pops to mind. Where does all that money come from?

Stricking debt means that ALL banks across the world go bankrupt. Debt isn't just money lend out anymore. It's money the bank didn't have but created with only a small percentage leverage (money they actually have in the vault/the system). It's money it has on the books as "will have in x amount of time". If too much of that money doesn't come in, a bank goes bankrupt as it can't pay out money to people that actually have it.

stricking away all rent on debt is possible, but still prohibitively expensive. and once again it's only going to hurt the small guy in the end.

WAKE UP people, this is not at all realistic.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Rikadyn » 05 Oct 2011, 14:28

Dear gods that list of demands is the most uneducated cobbled together hippie crap I've ever seen. Only #1 has any real truth to it (and even then it's miniscule), after that it just becomes proof that they're idiots.

Actually, they should erase debt, and institute a living wage. That wage will be zero, and you'll get your free education as you have to scavenge and hunt for food and shelter...

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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby tak197 » 05 Oct 2011, 14:33

The way I see it, the US at this point in time is SCREAMING for change and inprovement, and we are at a crossroads. Personally, I see the only way this country is going to get better is to get rid of the party system and focus on fixing what needs to be fixed. The only problem is that we can barely agree on WHAT needs to be fixed.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Gollom » 05 Oct 2011, 14:56

Surprised to find myself in the "like the spirit and idea, hate the execution" crowd. It strikes me as counter productive; they're making it very easy to dismiss completely valid points by being so...silly about the whole thing.

And that list of demands. Ugh. Most of them are worthwhile end goals. But they're just that; end goals. No president, congress or even god-emperor could just snap their fingers and BAM. Every American is debt free. Or universal health care for all with no insurance companies. Or any of the other even crazier stuff in that list. It takes time, a lot of it, and political capital and a constant push from the majority. I guess that's just a proposed list of demands, and one of the first comments is basically "we need more focused demands". At least one level headed person.

It's unfortunate; we're entirely complacent in the west and someone loudly pointing out how messed up the situation is would be helpful. This just isn't it.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Kara » 05 Oct 2011, 15:04

I think one of the ideas that I read in an FAQ for the Occupation is that they want to collectively come to agreement on some demands or focuses, and that in order to collectively agree on it without one specific leader it would take a lot of time. That's just a part of the process.
It's still just the start. They'll be out there for a good while from the looks of it, so give it some time and maybe there will be more exact demands.

For now just watch the story unfold.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby TheRocket » 05 Oct 2011, 15:34

empath wrote:*whew* I need that laugh; that actually felt good.

if you need one, too



WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN.

It's a good thing that guy isn't leading the pack. In fact, no one is! LOLERZ.

I really would like to get behind this and NOT be poor, without health care and in in massive amounts of debt just to live. I don't have the answers on how to fix this and it seems no one else does. I will diligently listen to politicians and vote and send letters when need be. I just don't see how posting photos of how poor we are is going to help when the statistics already reflect that.
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Re: Occupy Wallstreet

Postby Wraith » 05 Oct 2011, 16:08

Kara wrote:I think one of the ideas that I read in an FAQ for the Occupation is that they want to collectively come to agreement on some demands or focuses, and that in order to collectively agree on it without one specific leader it would take a lot of time. That's just a part of the process.
It's still just the start. They'll be out there for a good while from the looks of it, so give it some time and maybe there will be more exact demands.

For now just watch the story unfold.


Yea, that's great and all, but generally, the process is:

For a movement online
Come up with a list of goals and focuses
Start taking action
Organize protest

You don't just show up some place and go "GRAAAA! WE'RE ANGRY! WE WANT STUUUUUF!"
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