Oops! We Did it Again!

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Elomin Sha
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Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Elomin Sha » 18 Nov 2011, 06:21

Remember a certain neutrino experiment that broke the laws of physics? Well, they tried the experiment again changing a few elements and achieved the same results.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15791236
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby empath » 18 Nov 2011, 06:26

So we don't know as much about the nature of the universe as we thought we knew. Accept that and move on; maybe something has CHANGED, maybe our initial conclusions missed (or are still missing) something, or maybe some things we've concluded to be constant fluctuate, etc.

Oh well, more work ahead of us. It's not like this revelation is going to compromise people's safety, or undermine something like building methods or medical procedures; it's not going to kill anyone (yet), so I guess it's good we've noticed this NOW, eh?
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby psychopez » 18 Nov 2011, 06:30

I like to think there is a god in the universe that every time humans think they know something, he changes everything up.

They think the world's flat? Oops, it is, bam mutherf***ers, it's round now.

I also like to think of a god that is Samuel L. Jackson.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby theDreamer » 18 Nov 2011, 06:37

Please.

With something like this, unless they can replicate it a million times, it means nothing.

Science. It's arduous.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby the_lone_bard » 18 Nov 2011, 06:37

Well, initially i thought it was great.
Then i talked about it and heard that maybe they just miscalculated the distance.
Then the thought occurred to me that for that to happen, all the other things they shoot around would have been showing up as wrong.

But, if this is indeed proven right, then i think we all know what this will lead to.

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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Drdiggit42 » 18 Nov 2011, 06:58

When I first heard about this I assumed that the neutrinos were traveling a very small amount above the speed of light, but if the data the showed in the article is correct the neutrinos where traveling at 3.05 x 10^8 m/s which is 5,000,000 m/s faster than light. that seems pretty significant.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby JenSev » 18 Nov 2011, 07:23

the_lone_bard wrote:Well, initially i thought it was great.
Then i talked about it and heard that maybe they just miscalculated the distance.


What did they miscalculate, did they forget that the neutrinos travel in a straight line, and they took the actual distance it would take to drive and didn't figure in the curvature of the earth?
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Metcarfre » 18 Nov 2011, 07:34

Extraordinary findings require extraordinary evidence. I wish people would remember that.

But this is an interesting development.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby empath » 18 Nov 2011, 08:18

Yes, because people are not allowed conjecture in a message board. :P
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Master Gunner » 18 Nov 2011, 11:20

From what I understand, this time around they had shorter neutrino pulses, to correct for any error that may have occurred from timing the generation of neutrinos. From this latest batch of experiments, they have determined that neutrino generation was not a cause for error in the first batch. Presumably, after they've run a few more batches through (remember that the "first" experiment we heard about back in September were the final results of something around 15,000 different data points), they'll move on to the next possible variable.

JenSev wrote:What did they miscalculate, did they forget that the neutrinos travel in a straight line, and they took the actual distance it would take to drive and didn't figure in the curvature of the earth?

That would have produced a difference of far more than 18 meters (how far behind light would have being when the neutrinos were detected). The argument about miscalculating the distance lies in the GPS systems used. While they should have better accuracy than 18 meters, given the nature of the experiment, it's worth double-checking.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Keab42 » 19 Nov 2011, 05:13

They're still using the same timing equipment, so if that caused the error last time...
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Dutch guy » 19 Nov 2011, 05:53

The first thing they tried was that maybe they were just measuring the wrong puls and bussed up the timing somewhere, meaning they were measuring one pulse too early. (During the first experiment neutrinos were fired in pulses very very shortly together. Making timing between stations very important. For the second experiment they stretched the pause between each pulse so they could be very sure which pulse they were measuring.

probably more experiments will follow to ensure propper calibration of the timing equipment.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Tycherin » 21 Nov 2011, 22:57

theDreamer wrote:Please.

With something like this, unless they can replicate it a million times, it means nothing.

Science. It's arduous.

Man, science is boring. When do we get to the part where they use a particle accelerator to make a really large explosion? I want to be there for that part. It'd be just like Transformers! Wow, that's the best idea! We should make science more like the Transformers movies!
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Highlander » 23 Nov 2011, 00:37

[quote="Tycherin Wow, that's the best idea! We should make science more like the Transformers movies![/quote]

Explosions, boobs and far too much focus on Shia leboef's charahter?
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 23 Nov 2011, 14:50

The distance isn't the biggest thing they could have miscalculated at this point, the method of measuring time they're using could also be way off.

Right now, they are narrowing down variables that could be responsible.

Remember: According to our current very-accurate model of physics, this is impossible, therefore we are doing everything we can to rule it out. If we can't find out what is causing the issue in our engineering, then it must be in the math and then we revise the model.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby rustak » 22 Feb 2012, 13:22

Alas, this is looking like it's as Lying said -- the method of measuring time was off, according to http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... aster.html . Still breaking news, so more details will be coming... but I'm not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed that the original finding is likely not going to stand :)
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Master Gunner » 22 Feb 2012, 13:47

Well that's unfortunate, but expected. Ah well, the hope was nice, if only for a short time. On the bright side, there's still plenty of other cool things out there to discover.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Keab42 » 22 Feb 2012, 13:50

I saw the Bad Astronomer post this on G+. It's certainly fascinating that something so mundane could throw the whole thing off.

But I think this whole example has proven why science is so great. A group of scientists found some results that disagreed with everything they had been taught about how the universe works. So they opened that up to the greater community for study, and then set about meticulously examining their methodology to make sure that they were right.

It was exciting to think Einstein might have been wrong after all these years, but frankly it's just as exciting to learn that he's still right.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Geoff_B » 22 Feb 2012, 13:52

Breaking news: We got it wrong!
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby plummeting_sloth » 22 Feb 2012, 14:51

rustak wrote:Alas, this is looking like it's as Lying said -- the method of measuring time was off, according to http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsid ... aster.html . Still breaking news, so more details will be coming... but I'm not sure whether to be relieved or disappointed that the original finding is likely not going to stand :)


Man... I'd buy that if it were true. I know I've gotten some fucked-up results because of a loose data cable before. Like that my Cone mantel was hotter than the Sun.
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby Lord Chrusher » 23 Feb 2012, 03:20

Which part of the Sun?
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Re: Oops! We Did it Again!

Postby plummeting_sloth » 23 Feb 2012, 04:42

Well, any part would have been too damn hot, but hotter than the surface, I think (middle school science don't fail me now). It wasn't reading in the millions.
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