Is rape "worse" than murder?

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Cybren
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Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Cybren » 22 Dec 2011, 20:09

Do we, as a society, condemn rape more than murder?

If sexual assaults are worse than murder, what makes it worse than non-sexual violence? eg; two gay bashings leave their victims near death, but one also involved a sexual assault. Do we judge one to have suffered more than the other? Is there actual research in this subject?
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby King Kool » 22 Dec 2011, 21:27

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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby DericWadleigh » 22 Dec 2011, 22:11

I thoroughly believe that taking the life of another is almost always worse than rape. Rape can be overcome and learned from. Death is the end. The one and only time rape is worth than death is in child molesting. Anyone who would possibly permanently scar and damage a child before they even have a chance at life is the worst possible thing ever.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby the_lone_bard » 22 Dec 2011, 23:25

As much as I do love the LRR community and seeing threads that discuss politics and right and wrong, I think this is a subject that society as a whole isn't ready to discuss openly.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Cybren » 23 Dec 2011, 01:18

If you don't think you're mature enough to discuss the topic you don't have to post in the thread. :P
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Elomin Sha » 23 Dec 2011, 04:03

the_lone_bard wrote:As much as I do love the LRR community and seeing threads that discuss politics and right and wrong, I think this is a subject that society as a whole isn't ready to discuss openly.


That's probably the reason, some people don't want to talk about it. From my own opinion the severity fluctuates.

1: Over time

Over a short time period: Rape is probably the worst because of the traumatic experience. My mum was almost raped many years ago (before I was born) and she shows no thoughts towards it.
Over a long time period it would be murder because a greater number of people (family & friends) keep remembering all the person killed.

2: Culture

Some cultures don't care for it. I'm sure some of you know that if a woman is raped it is their fault for the adultery happening and they have to marry their rapist.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 23 Dec 2011, 04:29

DericWadleigh wrote:I thoroughly believe that taking the life of another is almost always worse than rape. Rape can be overcome and learned from. Death is the end. The one and only time rape is worth than death is in child molesting. Anyone who would possibly permanently scar and damage a child before they even have a chance at life is the worst possible thing ever.

Conversely I believe that rape is worse than murder. Death is, indeed as you say, "the end", beyond which there can be no more suffering.

Consider the level of mental anguish of someone tortured for twenty years before finally being killed versus someone who was instead killed day 1. Fritzl for example imprisoned his daughter for years, routinely raping and beating her and his incestuous offspring, but would he be considered nearly so repulsive had he just murdered her?

Or in brief, you can do far worse things to someone while they're still alive. That's sort of why I oppose the death penalty.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Geoff_B » 23 Dec 2011, 04:34

I think Fritzl was a special case.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby the_lone_bard » 23 Dec 2011, 05:25

Cybren wrote:If you don't think you're mature enough to discuss the topic you don't have to post in the thread. :P


No, the reason I personally don't discuss this if I can avoid it is because chances are someone who's seen this forum has been a Victim. But, do continue.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby EnglishMQ » 23 Dec 2011, 06:08

I think there are things so bad and so long lasting they can be considered worse than death, and that the act of rape is so personal and so mind-messing it could, in some cases be worse than than some of the quicker less-painful deaths, and is maybe condemned more by socity because of its deep long lasting affects. However there probably are more cases of rape where they can be over come and moved on from the painful event. So rape can be worse than death, but they're the exception not the rule.

However as I am yet to be raped or murdered I'm probably ill-informed to comment.

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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby dackwards d » 23 Dec 2011, 06:27

I honestly think it is a case of apples and oranges, if you'll forgive the use of such a trite phrase on such a serious topic. What a rape victim goes through and what a murder victim goes through are extremely different, as is what the loved ones of the victim go through. A rape victim may be permanently scarred in both a physical and mental sense whereas a murder victim is dead and their suffering is over. Conversely a rape victim may recover, to some degree. A murder victim is permanently and irretrievably lost to their family.
The harshness of any crime needs to be weighed upon its individual details - even if a consensus was reached that one was worse than the other people would still find exceptions. Is rape still worse if the murderer tortured the victim at great length before killing? Is murder still worse if the rape victim was underage?
If pushed for a solid pick-a-side answer I would hesitantly put rape as the worst of the two for the following reason: while, under some extenuating circumtances, killing a person can be understandable, there is no possible justification for raping someone.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby TorachiKatashi » 23 Dec 2011, 13:28

I think it would honestly come down to the individual person. I, for instance, have some serious "facing my own mortality" issues that can be crippling at times. If someone were to give me a choice between being killed then, or going off with them and being a rape victim for some indefinite period of time, I'd be going off with them, because nothing they could do to me could possibly terrify me as much as the thought of dying, of natural causes or otherwise.

But I'm certain there are many people who feel the exact opposite, who are significantly more terrified of the thought of being raped or tortured and would much rather just be killed.

Where does that get us? No where, really, because how the victim feels doesn't have any effect on trial proceedings or sentencing (presuming they're even alive to witness it.) All we can do is look at the facts. I'd rather be raped given those two choices, but the very next person in this thread may rather be murdered, and neither one of us would be wrong.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 23 Dec 2011, 13:38

Oh yeah, I'd be the rape victim given those two options, because the longer I'm alive the higher the odds I'll be saved, escape, etc. but if I'm dead there's no escape whatsoever nor any potential chance of future happiness at all. That's why murder is so terrifying in the first place, but the longer I'm alive the more pain and suffering I can endure as well. It's a double-edged sword.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby auberginequeen » 23 Dec 2011, 13:47

I generally concur with everything Lying's said except for the death penalty bit. (I oppose the death penalty but not for that reason)

Unfortunately it seems that North Americans, anyway, consider murder to be much more serious than rape. Hardly ever do we see people blaming the victim for murder. How often is someone let off for murder charges because their victim was "asking for it"?

Why do we think that it's possible for someone to have been "asking" to be raped while we do not even consider the possibility that someone was "asking" to be murdered, based on what they wrote/wore/etc?

It's just as logical in my mind, and I can tell you that there are definitely people out there who want to die. Whether there are those out there who genuinely want to be sexually assaulted (vs. enjoying it as a fantasy), on the other hand, is unclear.

North American society's take on rape is horrendously callous.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Elomin Sha » 23 Dec 2011, 14:03

dackwards d wrote: there is no possible justification for raping someone.


Rapist: oh naw mate she wuz askin' fur it.


I wonder how many times that line has been used.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Cybren » 23 Dec 2011, 16:51

auberginequeen wrote:I generally concur with everything Lying's said except for the death penalty bit. (I oppose the death penalty but not for that reason)

Unfortunately it seems that North Americans, anyway, consider murder to be much more serious than rape. Hardly ever do we see people blaming the victim for murder. How often is someone let off for murder charges because their victim was "asking for it"?

Why do we think that it's possible for someone to have been "asking" to be raped while we do not even consider the possibility that someone was "asking" to be murdered, based on what they wrote/wore/etc?

It's just as logical in my mind, and I can tell you that there are definitely people out there who want to die. Whether there are those out there who genuinely want to be sexually assaulted (vs. enjoying it as a fantasy), on the other hand, is unclear.

North American society's take on rape is horrendously callous.

Are you saying rape is a more grievous crime or that it is not taken as seriously (which is true, given the propensity for rapes to not get prosecuted)
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby auberginequeen » 23 Dec 2011, 16:59

Both. As I said, I agree with Lying, who stated that he considered rape to be worse than murder.

The rest of the post was about how rape isn't taken seriously.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby TorachiKatashi » 23 Dec 2011, 17:15

I think the problem there is (at least when it comes to outside people commenting on a rape cases, not necessarily the rapist,) is that when they say "She had it coming," what they really mean is, "There were steps she could have taken to protect herself which she didn't take," which is often true. Does that make it her fault? Of course not. But I know that, whether it's wrong of me or not, I'm likely to feel slightly more sympathy for a rape victim who is raped by a close friend in their home, versus someone who is raped while wandering drunk through the alleyways behind a club. Both are victims and neither are at fault for what happened to them, but obviously one of the two took some pretty stupid risks that came back to bite her.

And for fairness sake, I should state that even though I say "she," everything I said applies equally to male rape victims.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby auberginequeen » 23 Dec 2011, 17:20

Couldn't the same be said of those who are kidnapped or murdered when out alone/too drunk to defend themselves?

Yet the defense of "they had it coming" is rarely used in such a case. Both scenarios involve people putting themselves at risk, and yet only in one such scenario is blaming the victim (on any level) acceptable.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Cybren » 23 Dec 2011, 17:48

auberginequeen wrote:Couldn't the same be said of those who are kidnapped or murdered when out alone/too drunk to defend themselves?

Yet the defense of "they had it coming" is rarely used in such a case. Both scenarios involve people putting themselves at risk, and yet only in one such scenario is blaming the victim (on any level) acceptable.



This is not a justification for blaming the victim. Anyone who ever says "they had it coming" is terrible.

But the most credible self defense guidelines always emphasize situational awareness. So yeah, if you get drunk in a bar in a bad neighborhood, walk home, and antagonize other drunk people, you think might be drug dealers, you probably aren't doing your personal safety any favors.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby theDreamer » 23 Dec 2011, 17:54

auberginequeen wrote:Couldn't the same be said of those who are kidnapped or murdered when out alone/too drunk to defend themselves?

Yet the defense of "they had it coming" is rarely used in such a case. Both scenarios involve people putting themselves at risk, and yet only in one such scenario is blaming the victim (on any level) acceptable.


Well, you see, it all comes down to the rationality of the other guy. The guy who sees the drunk bitch all slut like and exposed.

You see, any sane, rational man CLEARLY can't control himself when confronted with such a sight. Everyone knows this, it's why women dress this way in the first place. The man could be a saint in his normal life, but when temptation is so glaringly forced in his face, he just can't help it.

That same, rational man, who can't control himself obviously wouldn't kill her though. Only some kind of sicko could be capable of that.

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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby TorachiKatashi » 23 Dec 2011, 18:16

auberginequeen wrote:Couldn't the same be said of those who are kidnapped or murdered when out alone/too drunk to defend themselves?

Yet the defense of "they had it coming" is rarely used in such a case. Both scenarios involve people putting themselves at risk, and yet only in one such scenario is blaming the victim (on any level) acceptable.


That's all definitely true, and I don't really have a rationalization for why that double standard exists. Maybe because I feel more strongly about murder than rape, that's why I see less leeway where murder is involved. Or it may simply be that, that's the way society sees things (however right or wrong it may be) so I'm used to seeing things that way.

It's also fair to point out that I do no drink and make a point of not going out alone at night (or ever, really, my dog goes everywhere with me for a reason,) so I may also think differently from someone who sees those things as more common place.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Avistew » 23 Dec 2011, 18:20

I once saw a hilarious (in a dark way) piece that used the "they had it coming" logic with mugging instead, explaingin that anyone wearing a suit were obviously flaunting that they're rich and had it coming if they were mugged.
It was talking about a specific victim who also handed his wallet when threatened with a weapon, meaning really it wasn't theft since he gave his wallet away, if he really didn't want it to be taken he would have fought harder.

On the subject at hand, I'd rather be raped than killed unless it was in a traumatising way that was going to stick with me forever and mess me in the head. The only thing I can think of making rape worse is that I'm not sure how you could rape in self-defense while it's possible for killing.
I would also say if you do both, raping first is worse than raping last.
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Ahlir » 23 Dec 2011, 21:45

I opened this subject up to my parents and started an interesting discussion. Pretty much we came to the same conclusion... That the two can't really be compared. What we did decide was that both crimes should have the same punishment.

I personally would prefer to be killed then raped. I've been sexually assaulted and the mental scars left on me are enough to back up my personal view.

Some interesting points my parents brought up: One, people can be "asking" to get murdered. Take guys who beat up their wives to snapping point.
Two, Another version of the what is worse question... Say someone tried to rape someone else and the victim killed the raper. Who would be the criminal there? The raper or the murderer? (ok yes I know it's self defense and manslaughter but someone still ends up dead)
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Re: Is rape "worse" than murder?

Postby Wolfenbarg » 23 Dec 2011, 22:12

Lyinginbedmon wrote:
DericWadleigh wrote:I thoroughly believe that taking the life of another is almost always worse than rape. Rape can be overcome and learned from. Death is the end. The one and only time rape is worth than death is in child molesting. Anyone who would possibly permanently scar and damage a child before they even have a chance at life is the worst possible thing ever.

Conversely I believe that rape is worse than murder. Death is, indeed as you say, "the end", beyond which there can be no more suffering.

Consider the level of mental anguish of someone tortured for twenty years before finally being killed versus someone who was instead killed day 1. Fritzl for example imprisoned his daughter for years, routinely raping and beating her and his incestuous offspring, but would he be considered nearly so repulsive had he just murdered her?

Or in brief, you can do far worse things to someone while they're still alive. That's sort of why I oppose the death penalty.


You can cope and grow from anguish. If people who suffered greatly were just put out of their misery, then society as a whole falls apart when it comes time to face strife. If a woman is raped, would it be better to have people to look to who have suffered the same and can help her move on? Or would it just be better for her to die? Unless she's going to live in a world that has essentially closed all of its doors to her because of the attack, then death is always worse.

You oppose the death penalty so *worse* things can be done to criminals? That's pretty fucked up.

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