Is rape "worse" than murder?

[Avistew]

Honestly, death terrifies me so I might even prefer being tortured than killed. Hell if I'm wrong and there is a God and an afterlife and I end up in hell due to being an atheist, in the middle of excruciating pain I know a part of me will still be happy that I keep to exist.
I know I wouldn't suffer from being dead, but I wouldn't anything and it seems terrifying.

I think murder is a very clear thing, in that either you're dead or you're not, and I guess you can be killed in various ways but it seems to be it's always a one time thing even if you do it over hours because you're incredibly sadistic.
Rape on the other hand can range from being a quick one time thing, potentially enven painless (physically) to dragging on for a number of years. It has a much broader scope and I believe the punishment should vary based on that.

While we're on the death penalty, I would say that I think there are 3 reasons to be against it:
1) Death is irreversible. While you can't give years of someone's life back, you can still release them if you realise they were innocent...but not if you've killed them.
2) It makes no sense to me to condemn someone to death for doing what you're doing to them. It's too much of an "eye for an eye" thing. The point is only to make sure they're not a danger to society, you don't have to destroy them completely for that
3) Every study I've seen says it costs more to have the death penalty than not. That's not something I would care about (I don't see why cost should enter the equation why human lives are at stake) BUT I've often seen the (in my opinion horrible) argument that "we need to kil them because they use more resources alive", and well, that's not true.

Oh, and I guess there is actually a 4, there doesn't seem to be any way to do it painlessly. I remember reading an article saying that they've realised that with the lethal injection, while they thought the first one acted as a painkiller, it only paralysed the person so that they are unable to show signs of pain when the second injection occurs, but they sill feel all of it.
If anyone can back that up with a better scientific knowledge than I have, that would be great.

[DancingFox]

On the whole "was asking for it" mess.

The very idea of saying such in a rape situation is disgusting and horrific, I certainly agree.

But, to explain where I think it comes from: killing somebody is never normal in day to day life. Having sex with somebody can be normal in day to day life. People can and do ask for sex, legitimately. People do not ask to be killed.*

So, the phrase "they asked for it" (while total bullshit in rape cases) is not nonsensical: If you have two consenting adults, be they in a relationship or a one night stand, and one of them asks the other for sex and they say yes, they asked for it. And we communicate in our lives without words all the time: I could gesture silently across the table during dinner, and to say that I asked for the salt would be perfectly valid. However, in such extreme situations as sex, one can never assume.

Now, this is just where this idea stems from. It doesn't in the slightest excuse or justify it.

Now, when it's rephrased to "they had it coming" there isn't even really a good explanation. That's just...I don't think I even have words for it.


...it's 3:30 AM. Hopefully I didn't slip up in my phrasing or my thought processes somewhere and be terribly offensive. I'm going to sleep now.


*: Obviously there's some potential for extremely unusual exceptions with suicidal people, but you get the point

[Dibria]

How often is someone let off for murder charges because their victim was "asking for it"?

Never, but no one ever gets out of a rape charge based on 'they were asking for it' either, what happens in those cases is most often that they are let off due to insufficient evidence. The problem there being if a woman states 'he raped me' and the man responds with 'We had sex but it was consensual, she was begging for it' it is then a matter of whether or not you can prove it was non consensual. The most common reason for people getting away with that defense is that both parties were drunk at which point it becomes very hard to prove either way.

I personally believe rape to be entirely unforgivable, some of the issues that come out of rape have been skirted around in this thread, transmission of serious STDs to a non-consensual victim, pregnancy, the use of date rape drugs.

Pregnancy is a particularly unpleasant issue, many women in many countries are not permitted to abort or take the morning after pill, what happens then? In a lot of countries single parenting is seen as a terrible shame making it impossible for rape victims who have become pregnant to find work and are often disowned by their family.

Conversely date rape drugs have begun to appear that leave a woman who has been given one infertile, permanently. I was first told about this by a friend studying Pharmacology at univeristy and I was shocked, I cannot imagine the hurt and trauma of being raped and then informed because of it you will *never* be able to have children.

Date rape drugs bring up another point, while two people getting drunk and perhaps forcing someone into something they don't want to do is a serious, serious crime and should be heavily punished, it is by no means as bad as someone who goes out with a date rape drug with the intention of raping someone. I personally believe that if a person is found guilty with evidence of premeditation then that should be it - they are never leaving prison, ever.

As for is rape worse than murder? I don't think they are comparable, but as for is killing someone in the heat of the moment versus the planned out sexual assault and permanent sterilisation of someone? Premeditation is worse, every time.

[Lyinginbedmon]

You oppose the death penalty so *worse* things can be done to criminals? That's pretty fucked up.

You misunderstand, I oppose the death penalty because, among other things, I believe that being in prison is worse.

Hell I think the lead-up to being executed is worse than actually being executed (digging one's own grave in the woods, in a sense), though I don't think that in itself should be used as a punishment because torturing someone, being a crime, should not also be a punishment for crime.

But that's a whole other topic.

[Wolfenbarg]

Fair enough.

[Elomin Sha]

Oh I can think of things worse than prison.
Barny the Dinosaur's song on a loop.
Nyan Cat on a loop.
The instructional guide on how to use your remote on a loop.
Anything by Nickleback, Muse or Creed.

[goat]

This seems like an awfully perverse twist on the "who would win in a fight" scenario. I have to throw my lot in with those who say that they are not comparable. I mean, they are two completely separate conditions that can be applied to the same thing. It's not asking "which looks better on this car, green or orange?" because the car can only really be green or orange. Whereas it is entirely possible to rape someone to death.

On the topic of "asking for it", one thing I've never quite understood is the tendency to demonize the advice to "dress more conservatively". I mean, I get that it's a bit sexist and reenforces the negative stereotypes of a woman's body as purely a sex object, but it's also smart fucking advice. I can say objectively that it's ridiculous and a little sexist to give that advice, but if someone is out for a little groping action don't wear your bathing suit to the bus station at midnight. To some people that sends the wrong message; the advice to protect yourself from those people is common fucking sense.

I mean, I think it comes down to the use of the word "provocative", as though women's bodies were capable of unleashing some sort of primal beast in men that can't help but stop for a rape while on their way home. But, on the other hand, if you dress slutty, people will tend to treat you more like a slut. It's an automatic social cue, just as a man in a business suit looks more respectable than one in rags. If that holds true, it falls on the level of not using ATMs on poorly lighted streets and not waving fistfuls of cash about. Not everyone is going to steal from you, but you're kind of asking for trouble.

TLDR:
1) rape/murder are strawberries and bananas: different, but still fruit and great in a smoothie
2)I don't completely understand the verbage surrounding "don't dress provocatively"
3)I think #2 falls under common sense, based on the reactions of a minority of people to stimuli

[Drunk On Mystery]

I'm of the opinion that murder is worse than rape, but I think it's a matter of personal opinion/perspective and that both are abhorrent.

However, I think an interesting discussion is there to be had on how our society treats the two in the media.

After all: would anyone ever attend a night at a Rape Mystery Dinner Theater?

[Elomin Sha]

I think this requires a public survey of about 100 volunteers and one assailant. First they are raped then in a second assault they are murdered. The only issue is gathering the results:

"I'm sorry to interrupt your being murdered but on a scale of 1 to 10 how does this compare to your previous calamity?" Probably won't work as it will break the flow and may corrupt the results.

"76% of our people taking part in our survey says murdered is far worse than being raped."

[Dibria]

"76% of our people taking part in our survey says murdered is far worse than being raped."

Far more likely:

"76% of people taking part in our survey were too traumatised to answer."

Or perhaps this thread has just drained my ability to be flippant.