Clothing and the way people treat you
Posted: 28 Mar 2012, 15:51
I figured it was pretty off-topic in the Menswear thread so I thought I'd start a new topic. This isn't restricted to how females wear but it is what I'm going to start with because that's what I have experience with.
First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm not talking about rape here. Not only are most rapes committed by someone familiar with the victim anyway, not only is rape about power, not sexual attraction, but I personally don't see a big link between finding someone attractive and raping them. I think there is a big leap here.
On the other hand, I think the way you dress is the way people will see you, and I don't see a big leap between seeing and looking. Your eyes can certainly drift without your thinking about it (happens to me all the time), while I doubt this is possible of sexual assault.
I was interested when in the Menswear section Matt referred to looking (specifically men looking at women, but I believe it can be seen in any gender combination) as something undesirable.
I am curious about it and thought more people might have thoughts on that note, but not specifically be reading the Menswear thread.
As I mentioned in that thread, I was once at a convention and started feeling terrible about myself. I'll actually clarify the succession of events better here:
- At the convention, I have a good time but starts losing a lot of self-esteem for no apparent reason.
- My husband asks about it, I think about it and say that not one man has found me attractive so far. At that point I can't explain what I mean, but it's obvious to me that they don't look at me with any appreciation, despite being quite polite and friendly otherwise.
- Over the course of the rest of the convention, I realise it is because none of them looks at my body. They all look at me straight in the eyes. They don't advert their eyes either like they're shy, or look down and away from me, both of which I would have still interpreted as them finding me attractive, but being embarrassed by it for whatever reason.
This is true of both males and females, however it hurts me more from males, mostly because I have very little experience interacting with females, but quite likely also because I'm straight.
- I tell my husband my new finding, he says people are just being polite because we're quite obviously together. I fail to see how any of this is polite and don't completely believe him.
Now, I have had times when I wanted to be seen as genderless, devoid of sexual traits, and if I couldn't achieve that by being online I dressed in ways that would desexualise me.
I never really did it consciously, but I have analysed it all since, and it makes perfect sense to me.
I don't think it is reasonable to ask someone not to look at you. I think it's close to asking them not to see the parts of you you are showing to them. It's easy to hide them if you don't want them seen. Way easier than expecting everyone to pretend they're not there. What makes that attitude (pretending they're not there) desirable, and why associate it with respect? Does anyone have an answer to this?
Now, I'm not saying that if a part of you can be seen, it's up for grabs (metaphorically or literally). There are plenty of parts of me I show not because I want to showcase them, but because I don't care if people see them. For instance, armpit hair. I really don't push it forward but at the same time what do I care if people see it or look at it? My only problem is when people are rude about it (generally by telling me I'm dirty, insinuating that I don't take proper care of myself or explaining that there are children present, like it's somehow obscene or something).
To me, it's like wearing a necklace, for instance. You might want to show it off, or just not really care one way or the other. But if you want to make sure people don't see it or look at it, you either don't wear it or wear it under your clothes. It just seems like basic stuff to me.
I'm not limiting that to part that are considered sexual, either. I guess one exception would be the face, because you can't easily hide your face, so if you have a scar, burn or something on it, you might want people to ignore that because they are supposed to assume you would have hidden it if it had been on another part of your body. I have some scars, for instance, and if I don't cover them I know it means I'm allowing other people to see them and look at them, and possibly ask about them.
I don't really understand what the fuss is about, I guess. Clothes are meant to hide people. Most of the time, everyone could be absolutely naked, except in parts of the world with very tought weather. You put clothes on to hide your body, and which clothes you put on are based on your decision of what you want to hide and what you want to show. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect people not to see the part you are showing to them on purpose.
Now, I'm not saying that by wearing these clothes it means you WANT them to look, but I assume it means at the least, you don't really give a shit if they look or not, because it's so easy to hide it. To me, a woman said "he looked at my chest! How dare he!" is similar to complaining that someone looked at your shirt design (the image at the front).
Anyway, looking forward to explanations, mostly from people who are the wearers (you don't have to be female. If you're a male who goes shirtless or close to and expects people not to look, you are free to comment on your reasoning as well. I'm absolutely not excluding males here.)
Comments from viewers rather that wearers are fine too if you understand the whole thing.
Oh, and this part is for mods: do you think we should move or copy the related posts in this thread too, or is it not needed?
[Matt edit: context merged in below]
I don't know about the shooting in question. However I do believe that some of the fashion and other cultural aspect that are predominantly black (such as the rap community) were meant to seem aggressive, in order to reclaim the power they usually don't have. The reasoning was something like "sure, I don't have money, I don't have connexions in high places, and people don't respect me as much... But I have my body and I can use it to gain respect"
Obviously, it sucks that it was needed in the first place, but I think it does make sense that it has an intimidating connotation because it was meant to be so.
Now, the real question is whether someone who is white and dressed the same way gets the same reactions or not.
I also think it depends heavily on the viewer's experiences. In my school lots of teens made these kinds of fashion statements, and so I don't think of it as something negative because I was around lots of people dressed that way, none of which were particularly aggressive (well there were a few bullies, but schools without bullies are rare).
Anyways, I do understand the idea that it's a "blame the victim thing". On the other hand I also agree that the way you dress sends a message and you should be aware of it. To shirt the conversation from black people to women (because I'm a woman and not black, so I feel more comfortable talking about that), you can wear a turtle neck or a deep cleavage, but you can't expect the same reaction from people if you wear one or the other. It doesn't mean people have to consider you a prude or a slut, and they shouldn't disrespect you, but you are sending a different message. I also don't think you have a right to be upset if people look at your breasts if you wear clothes that are basically at least a permission to look, if not an invitation. I mean if you don't want people to look at some body parts of yours, it's very easy to hide them.
Then again, it doesn't give them the right to be rude about it.
First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm not talking about rape here. Not only are most rapes committed by someone familiar with the victim anyway, not only is rape about power, not sexual attraction, but I personally don't see a big link between finding someone attractive and raping them. I think there is a big leap here.
On the other hand, I think the way you dress is the way people will see you, and I don't see a big leap between seeing and looking. Your eyes can certainly drift without your thinking about it (happens to me all the time), while I doubt this is possible of sexual assault.
I was interested when in the Menswear section Matt referred to looking (specifically men looking at women, but I believe it can be seen in any gender combination) as something undesirable.
I am curious about it and thought more people might have thoughts on that note, but not specifically be reading the Menswear thread.
As I mentioned in that thread, I was once at a convention and started feeling terrible about myself. I'll actually clarify the succession of events better here:
- At the convention, I have a good time but starts losing a lot of self-esteem for no apparent reason.
- My husband asks about it, I think about it and say that not one man has found me attractive so far. At that point I can't explain what I mean, but it's obvious to me that they don't look at me with any appreciation, despite being quite polite and friendly otherwise.
- Over the course of the rest of the convention, I realise it is because none of them looks at my body. They all look at me straight in the eyes. They don't advert their eyes either like they're shy, or look down and away from me, both of which I would have still interpreted as them finding me attractive, but being embarrassed by it for whatever reason.
This is true of both males and females, however it hurts me more from males, mostly because I have very little experience interacting with females, but quite likely also because I'm straight.
- I tell my husband my new finding, he says people are just being polite because we're quite obviously together. I fail to see how any of this is polite and don't completely believe him.
Now, I have had times when I wanted to be seen as genderless, devoid of sexual traits, and if I couldn't achieve that by being online I dressed in ways that would desexualise me.
I never really did it consciously, but I have analysed it all since, and it makes perfect sense to me.
I don't think it is reasonable to ask someone not to look at you. I think it's close to asking them not to see the parts of you you are showing to them. It's easy to hide them if you don't want them seen. Way easier than expecting everyone to pretend they're not there. What makes that attitude (pretending they're not there) desirable, and why associate it with respect? Does anyone have an answer to this?
Now, I'm not saying that if a part of you can be seen, it's up for grabs (metaphorically or literally). There are plenty of parts of me I show not because I want to showcase them, but because I don't care if people see them. For instance, armpit hair. I really don't push it forward but at the same time what do I care if people see it or look at it? My only problem is when people are rude about it (generally by telling me I'm dirty, insinuating that I don't take proper care of myself or explaining that there are children present, like it's somehow obscene or something).
To me, it's like wearing a necklace, for instance. You might want to show it off, or just not really care one way or the other. But if you want to make sure people don't see it or look at it, you either don't wear it or wear it under your clothes. It just seems like basic stuff to me.
I'm not limiting that to part that are considered sexual, either. I guess one exception would be the face, because you can't easily hide your face, so if you have a scar, burn or something on it, you might want people to ignore that because they are supposed to assume you would have hidden it if it had been on another part of your body. I have some scars, for instance, and if I don't cover them I know it means I'm allowing other people to see them and look at them, and possibly ask about them.
I don't really understand what the fuss is about, I guess. Clothes are meant to hide people. Most of the time, everyone could be absolutely naked, except in parts of the world with very tought weather. You put clothes on to hide your body, and which clothes you put on are based on your decision of what you want to hide and what you want to show. It doesn't seem reasonable to expect people not to see the part you are showing to them on purpose.
Now, I'm not saying that by wearing these clothes it means you WANT them to look, but I assume it means at the least, you don't really give a shit if they look or not, because it's so easy to hide it. To me, a woman said "he looked at my chest! How dare he!" is similar to complaining that someone looked at your shirt design (the image at the front).
Anyway, looking forward to explanations, mostly from people who are the wearers (you don't have to be female. If you're a male who goes shirtless or close to and expects people not to look, you are free to comment on your reasoning as well. I'm absolutely not excluding males here.)
Comments from viewers rather that wearers are fine too if you understand the whole thing.
Oh, and this part is for mods: do you think we should move or copy the related posts in this thread too, or is it not needed?
[Matt edit: context merged in below]
I don't know about the shooting in question. However I do believe that some of the fashion and other cultural aspect that are predominantly black (such as the rap community) were meant to seem aggressive, in order to reclaim the power they usually don't have. The reasoning was something like "sure, I don't have money, I don't have connexions in high places, and people don't respect me as much... But I have my body and I can use it to gain respect"
Obviously, it sucks that it was needed in the first place, but I think it does make sense that it has an intimidating connotation because it was meant to be so.
Now, the real question is whether someone who is white and dressed the same way gets the same reactions or not.
I also think it depends heavily on the viewer's experiences. In my school lots of teens made these kinds of fashion statements, and so I don't think of it as something negative because I was around lots of people dressed that way, none of which were particularly aggressive (well there were a few bullies, but schools without bullies are rare).
Anyways, I do understand the idea that it's a "blame the victim thing". On the other hand I also agree that the way you dress sends a message and you should be aware of it. To shirt the conversation from black people to women (because I'm a woman and not black, so I feel more comfortable talking about that), you can wear a turtle neck or a deep cleavage, but you can't expect the same reaction from people if you wear one or the other. It doesn't mean people have to consider you a prude or a slut, and they shouldn't disrespect you, but you are sending a different message. I also don't think you have a right to be upset if people look at your breasts if you wear clothes that are basically at least a permission to look, if not an invitation. I mean if you don't want people to look at some body parts of yours, it's very easy to hide them.
Then again, it doesn't give them the right to be rude about it.