Van is Writing Something! Opinions Needed!

[Vanguard]

Some of you may have seen this discussion start on Twitter yesterday. For those of you that missed it, allow me to explain in full.

In a bout of what might have been temporary insanity I started tinkering with the basic world mechanics of Antithesis, a book/story I've had the idea for since 2008. A few of you might remember me bringing up the concept of this story in the past, up to and including that it's the source of the black-and-white avatar I've been using for years now. For the most part the story's universe and characters have just stayed locked up in my head ever since, slowly being refined and changed over time, but yesterday I did the first real work on it that I've done in years. I might actually be ready to start writing it, provided that I can find the motivation.

With that said, there's something that I'd like some input on...



Let's talk about shifting.

The central premise of Antithesis is that it takes place across numerous worlds in several different alternate realities. When I say that I don't mean "parallel" worlds where each world is similar to each other save a few "for want of a nail" differences, so there are no "evil twin" scenarios or anything like that. For simplicities sake assume that each world is entirely unique and independent of one another.

Several of the story's characters, the protagonist included, have the ability to "shift" between worlds, effectively moving between different realities. Shifting is a core element of how the story universe works, so I've spent a while thinking of what the "rules" are, hence the poorly scribbled diagram above. By the time the story is in full-swing I want to have clear cut rules and mechanics on how shifting works.

This is why I'm bringing all this up. As an extension of the conversation I had with Metcarfre and Master Gunner over Twitter yesterday I'd like outside opinions and thoughts on how everything works. Perhaps more importantly, after I go over the basic mechanics and rules here, I want you to find any loopholes or ways the system can be abused. For the people on this forum that shouldn't be too hard.

Let's begin.

Shifting Basics

Shifting is the process of moving an individual from a point (Point X) on one world (World A) to another point (Point Y) on a completely separate world in another reality (World B). This is a process that happens entirely via force of will of the shifter with no outside aide or influence. Shifting itself is an ability that the shifter simply has. It cannot be trained or acquired. You are either born with the ability or you aren't.

Shifting isn't quite "teleportation", at least not in the same sense as, say, the power possessed by Nightcrawler from the X-Men or how transporters work in Star Trek. This is because shifting cannot be used to move from Point X to Point Y within the same world. In a nutshell shifting works by allowing the shifter to move withing the space in between worlds to change location, and since this can't be done within the same world it makes shifting within it in this manner impossible. This shortcoming can be circumvented by temporarily shifting to another world and then back to the desired point.

For example, let's say the shifter is on World A and wants to move from Point X to Point Y, which is only a few yards away. They would have to first shift to Point Z on World B and then shift back to A in order to reach Point Y. In essence the shifter is "bouncing" off of the other world to move within their own, making it look like true teleportation to someone who doesn't know any better.

"Portal rules" apply to all forward motion and momentum during a shift, meaning that such forces are still with the shifter after moving between worlds. So, for example, if a shifter was to fall off of a very tall building in World A and then shift to stable ground somewhere in World B, he would immediately collide with said ground because he still has all of the built up downward momentum from the fall with him. To avoid this sort of thing a shifter would have to shift somewhere that allows them to "shed" this kind of momentum before they can shift anywhere safely.

As previously mentioned, shifting works be having the shifter move through the space between worlds, which is commonly referred to as "The Ways" or "The Space Between Spaces". It is possible to shift directly into The Ways, but anyone who has attempted it has never returned from doing so. This is mainly attributed to The Ways being an "un-place" that is non-constrained by physical existence in order to act in balance with the physical realm. Simply being in The Ways is believed to be impossible.

Just like with your stock teleportation superpower it is possible for a shifter to bring others with them during a shift, provided that both the shifter and their companion are maintaining some kind of physical contact.

*sighs* Okay, that's the broadstrokes. Let the questions and the nitpicking begin... now.

~V

[Geoff_B]

When shifting will the person automatically avoid obstacles? For example if Bob wants to shift from point X on world A to point Y on world B, would he know in advance if there was a giant boulder at point Y? If not would he then rematerialise inside that boulder (with all attendant problematic consequences) or would he arrive at the closest point to his original destination?

I suppose a follow up question would be do you have to know exactly where you're going to be able to shift? For first time shifters this would seem to be a rather nerve-wracking experience.

Edit: Something else just occurred to me: This sounds similar to the second book in His Dark Materials - The Subtle Knife - and the mechanics of moving from world to world in that book. With the best will in the world and without trying to sound overly critical, what makes your idea different?

[Vanguard]

Actually, on the subject of first-time shifters...

Shifting itself is a very rare trait that only occurs in humans. The reason that the shifters numbers are "reasonable" across the course of the story is because of what tends to happen to most first-time shifters.

Unless trained beforehand in order to control the ability properly, most first-time shifts are brought on almost entirely by accident, the main causes being particularly vivid dreams or extreme stress. Thanks to this the majority of unaware shifters end up shifting to places where they either die immediately (shift high up in the air, into deadly environments, etc) or successfully shift and are completely stranded. This isn't taking into account those that inadvertently shift directly into The Ways and are lost forever.

As far as materializing inside of things I was planning on employing "Law of Conservation of Detail" a bit here. As long as a shifter has a vague idea of where they need to be going and know how to tap into their abilities they can get there safely. Or, in layman's terms, if they can visualize it they can get there. Knowing exact destination obviously helps far more than these sorts of "blind" jumps.

[Master Gunner]

My thoughts from yesterday on how to safely shed momentum when falling, so you can "land" safely.



So you're at point X (for sake of simplicity, directly above the North Pole), falling towards point Y. So you shift to point M on world B, maintaining your velocity, which would now be opposite to Earth's gravitational pull. So instead of falling down, you're now being propelled up, and Earth's gravity is decelerating you until you're completely motionless, relative to the Earth, at point N. Now you can safely shift to point Y back on world A, as you'll no longer have any momentum relative to the Earth.

Now, this only works so cleanly between the North and South poles. At any other point, there's the small problem of the Earth rotating at 1,674.4 km/h on the Equator. So if you're in Indonesia, for example, and shift to the other side of the world, you're now flying West through Brazil with a ground speed of about 3350km/h, almost Mach 3. Not necessarily a pleasant position to be in. Even if you stay on the same Longitude, going from the vicinity of Accra, Ghana to London will result in a difference of velocity of over 500km/h.

Basically, shifting long distances can cause really, really, bad things to happen. However, if they could swap positions with whatever's on the other side where they're materializing, perhaps they could swap momentum as well. Of course, that also has bad possibilities associated with it. If you swap positions with something lighter than you (say, a pile of hay), it's going to appear where you were with significantly added velocity. Conversely, if you swap with something heavier than you, like a cast-iron cannon (for example), then you're going to come out with significantly added velocity (hope there's a snowbank in the way or you're dead, basically).

Of course, depending on what your goals are, those "bad" possibilities could be turned into "good" outcomes.

[theDreamer]

It more reminds me of some show on YTV with an egg shaped spaceship, Geoff.

I have a GBA game for it, I'll get the name sometime eventually.

[Vanguard]

... I've never actually read His Dark Materials, so I can't really answer that question. Partly because I have no frame of reference, but mainly because I don't really care how His Dark Materials did it, as horribly insensitive as that might sound.

While discussing similarities, the whole shifting thing is partly inspired by The Longest Journey, including the name "shifting". Then again, how TLJ worked is that the main character moved back-and-forth between two twin worlds and even then really to about the same area and both, so if anything I just took that concept as a baseline and made it far broader in scope.

[theDreamer]

On a more pleasant note:

Remember that constants and rules we take for granted, like g=9.8m/s, and
G=6.674×10−11 Nm^2kg^−2 and F=GMm/R^2, are not true in other worlds.

Utilize this.

As an example. Let one world exist with F=a, but leave all other formulas the same, and imagine that world.

Or simpler, let p=mv/4. Now if I have momentum n, and I bounce to some world, my mass and velocity stay constant, so suddenly my momentum p=n/4, which means when I hit a wall in that world, it'll hurt way less.

[Psyclone]

Are shifters only a phenomenon that occur on earth (or whatever world is the "home" world)? Are the creatures in the other worlds essentially humanoid?

[Metcarfre]

Does it require significant effort to shift, or is it trivial?

I'm a sucker for internal consistency of 'magic' systems, by the way. Good stuff.

[SecretsOfMoon]

G=6.674×10−11 Nm^2kg^−2

Is that supposed to be 6.674 times ten to the power of -11, or is it a cross product of 6.674 and 10? I find this to not be clear.

[theDreamer]

Dammit, I forgot a carat.

G=6.674 * 10^(-11) Nm^(2)kg^(-2).

Clearer?

G

[ecks]

Remember that constants and rules we take for granted, like g=9.8m/s, and
G=6.674×10−11 Nm^2kg^−2 and F=GMm/R^2, are not true in other worlds.

What? The only thing that has anything to do with earth there is g=9.8m/s/s
If you are going to throw out big G and gravitation because you are in a new universe (not just new world) then you might as well throw out the strong/weak nuclear, electromagnetic ones too and everything else we know about the universe. But then why would anyones component elements stay together? Throwing out the entire known universe each time you shift seems bad for suspension of disbelief, but maybe that's just me. I guess you could throw out gravity but nothing else (no grand unified theory yet), but that seems silly and arbitrary.

[Vanguard]

Are shifters only a phenomenon that occur on earth (or whatever world is the "home" world)? Are the creatures in the other worlds essentially humanoid?

Shifting is a phenomenon present in humans in general regardless of place of origin (I'm yet to decide if humanity's prevalence across the different worlds is due to inadvertent "migration" or outright chance). I'm still working out details as to how the shifting ability is gained, but the general idea is that it's gifted by a recessive gene on the father's side that only manifests in a person if the gene has been present across several generations of ancestors.

Does it require significant effort to shift, or is it trivial?

I'm a sucker for internal consistency of 'magic' systems, by the way. Good stuff.

Purposeful shifting does require at bare minimum concentration to both visualize the destination and will the shift itself into happening. More "veteran" shifters can pull this off with less effort than someone who is inexperienced, but a degree of focus is required regardless.

[JustAName]

Geoff, this is nothing like Subtle Knife. Wut. In that, he used a knife. To cut through to other worlds. Some of which were quite similar to our own. He didn't go bouncing around, transporting himself from one place to another. He ended up wherever the window he opened in that spot opened to, and that was that.

As for nitpicks, can you grab ahold of someone who's about to shift and go with them, or do they have to make the effort/want to bring you along?

[theDreamer]

Why?

These worlds are separated by nothingness.

Not just empty space, but some mystical who-ha called The Way. "World" here seems more like universe than planet.

...Also, ask Chrusher, there is no evidence to suggest that a world on the other end of the known universe follows the same "universal" laws. At least last I checked.

I was binding myself to gravity there, but yes, why should you assume electromagnetism functions the same? Maybe this is a world where combustion happens in reverse, or suns function on fission.

And even if you want to keep all the physics working normally, obviously SATP doesn't need to be the same, nor does density, volume or composition of the planet you are on.

[Vanguard]

As for nitpicks, can you grab ahold of someone who's about to shift and go with them, or do they have to make the effort/want to bring you along?

Just like how a shifter can take someone with him/her, unwilling or not, via physical contact a person can effectively "hitch a ride" with a shifter if they're lucky enough to latch on right as the shift is being made. In both circumstances the same thing is still happening; the shifter is maintaining a physical connection with their tag-along during the shift. In this instance whether or not they "want" that person to come with them doesn't really make a difference.

Also, I might need to go make a run to the store for booze if I want to try understanding all of these equations without getting a headache, because good lord is a lot of this going over my head

[Metcarfre]

If your fiction requires math to understand, it's bad.

This is why [i]1984 is such a universally reviled book.[/i]

[JustAName]

Hrm, let me see if I can get someone in on this who does a lot of worldbuilding...

[ecks]

Big G is a universal constant, which last I checked meant assumed to be universal in all space and time. Physics is by no means complete but I doubt anyone here is going to come up with anything any better.

Why should you assume the universal constants are the same? Because if you start fiddling with them your atoms disintegrate/never exist in the first place. Doesn't make for much of a story.

If he wants to give the new universe different macroscopic 'rules' thats fine, and probably the whole point - but for gods sake don't bring physical constants into it and try to explain it that way.

[edit]

Also, I might need to go make a run to the store for booze if I want to try understanding all of these equations without getting a headache, because good lord is a lot of this going over my head

Don't bother, just follow Met's advice and keep this out your book

I'd be more interested in hearing about proposed constraints/dangers, since it seems the only one so far is the inability to cheat conservation of momentum/energy.

Is the shift instantaneous for the shifter and/or observers?

[theDreamer]

Constants change, possibly

There are others in the same vein, filled with real science.

[Master Gunner]

Shifting is a phenomenon present in humans in general regardless of place of origin (I'm yet to decide if humanity's prevalence across the different worlds is due to inadvertent "migration" or outright chance). I'm still working out details as to how the shifting ability is gained, but the general idea is that it's gifted by a recessive gene on the father's side that only manifests in a person if the gene has been present across several generations of ancestors.

For a gene to only be passed along only on the father's side, it would have to be on the Y chromosome, and probably in the zone protected from chromosomal crossover (otherwise it could pass over to the X chromosome). That means it could only be expressed if the dominant allele on the X chromosome is missing, or possibly in the case of XYY syndrome.

...Also, ask Chrusher, there is no evidence to suggest that a world on the other end of the known universe follows the same "universal" laws. At least last I checked.

The last time someone asked Chrusher about that, I believe, he responded that as far as all the observations and models go, universal laws and constants have quite minimal variation across the universe.

Overall, it's just easier to avoid messing with how the universe works. Fully realizing a universe with even the tiniest differences in how things work is a job best left to physicists, and would likely not make an interesting story for the rest of us. Politics, socioeconomcs, technological level, things like that are much easier to mess around with, and provide plenty of material for an interesting narrative.

[theDreamer]

Also simple physics.

Assuming G, F and all other things work the way we expect, the planet might be larger and 30 million more kilometres further from its sun. Or something.

...Myst did a wonderful job of just saying "fuck off, rules" and creating wonderful worlds (not, I read the books, not so much played the games).

[ecks]

I was never complaining about things like a "maybe 0.0006% higher than it was 9 billion years ago" change, but the problems with inherent with altering fundamental constants.

From the article you linked:

If this value were different by as little as 4%, the universe would be a very different place. Nuclear fusion as we know it would not work, so stars would not burn. Without stars, there would be nothing to convert primeval hydrogen and helium into heavier elements like carbon or oxygen. And without carbon and oxygen, we could not exist. The Fine-Structure Constant is important.

This is my point: if you go fiddling around with these things and don't have 10 PhDs in physics you will almost certainly get the consequences wrong. This is a bad thing for someone seeking to shore up their logic. If you start changing these things and propogate the changes to their natural conclusions, you have discarded everything the reader knows or thinks they about the universe. The shifter's element's will likely not exist at their destination, their body chemistry won't be the same (if there is anything left to be even classified under chemistry), there might not be any visible light as in the example above, and othing will work unless "magic".

You don't need to throw out the basic functioning of our universe to have a different atmosphere, different little g or anything else that could make for interesting problems. You could but I think it would be incredibly error prone and foolhardy.

I'll quit derailing the topic now, but hopefully Vanguard at least got a "what not to do" out of it.

[theDreamer]

I just maintain nothing says "different" like "fundamental rules of the universe being weird."

[Master Gunner]

The problem is that there is a difference between "weird" and "nothing existing on the other side", the latter of which pretty much renders the world Van is trying to build rather pointless. Once you start messing with the universe to any significant extent, what you'll end up with would likely be closer to what Van already has in "The Space Between Spaces" than anything you could set a workable plot in.