Beaten to the Punch.

[Lyinginbedmon]

Few people are the colours they are painted. Beneath all the layers of "power-mad tyrant" and "devoted righteous champion", there was a human being, who died this past week. That's the part that made me sad to hear it, followed quickly by all the people totally ignoring it to get a parting cannon shot in.

[Drinnik]

If we got sad over the deaths of everyone we didn't know personally, we would never be out of mourning. A person is remembered for what the do, not who they are.

Thatcher was a woman who lobbied for Section 28, making it illegal to discuss homosexuality in schools and was considering a proposition from one of her aide to open "camps" for homosexual men during the AIDS crisis. Yes, she didn't do it, but she comsidered it, not dismiss it out of hand.

[empath]

...and despite that closing sentence, your friend "...ascribes a negative change (MAD COW DISEASE) to one person, as though it never would have happened in her absence..."

BSE was caused by lax inspections by DeFRA, a department of the government, the leader of which was...

So this microscopic organism DID NOT EXIST before Thatcher bureaucrats cut diligent food inspection, and failed to detect them. Leaving the logical paradox aside, you might want to tell Hippocrates and Vegetius that they're full of shit.

Discovery doesn't equate creation; ask the aboriginal peoples about how all these mountains and rivers just didn't exist until some loud, strange-sounding white dude came along and made them.

On the other hand, the outbreak of the prion into U.K. food stocks and subsequent loss of life? Yeah, totally to blame from what you said, but tone back the hyperbole back into something that doesn't make you look like you're trying to parody your own arguments.

I don't take issue with your message; I merely take SERIOUS umbrage that you present it in such a way that weakens its import.


And Lying's got a very good point: something many here weren't old enough to remember was her no-compromise stance with arrested and convicted IRA terrorists, and their desire to be incarcerated as political prisoners instead of 'common criminals'. IRA convicts went on hunger strike, some to the point of dying, but publically, Thatcher would not give in to any sort of special treatment to them. Many people at the time blamed her for the deaths.

Later it has since come out that - off the public record - Thatcher WAS working on compromise with the protesters and had submitted an formal offer to them, but they'd rejected it.

Thus, the simple, binary, black/white public image of the politician and public figure isn't all that was...

And yeah, I'm sure that Hitler (who has already been mentioned in this very thread) was nice to his dog and his girlfriend, too; damn, pesky human beings for not being easy-to-pigeonhole stereotypes!

[Drinnik]

Yeah, I missed out the word "outbreak" and that's such a big faux pas that it obviously warranted that response. I humbly apologise.

[Lord Hosk]

I see this like Nixon.

People talk about how terrible Nixon was as a president but they overlook the creation of the EPA and the Clean Air Act, the ending of the draft and opening trade with china.

Everyone blames everything bad on the political leader they dislike and credit their accomplishments to the will of the people.

[ArchieO]

I invoke Godwin's Law on this thread. That is all.

[empath]

...which even Godwin said was just a parody of similar 'observational altruisms about human behaviour.' Oh, and you're about five hours late.

[DSmaster21]

Few people remember George W Bush's first term but I am told by my teachers that it went well.

[empath]

...

Define "went well"; there are some definitions that that would hold true.

[DSmaster21]

He got reelected? I'll have to ask as I really don't care what the prez does 1) because he does not have absolute control of the country and 2) as long as he isn't legalizing drugs and other important things that I have opinions on, I don't care just don't screw up too bad.

[empath]

...okay...

"don't screw up too bad" There's another relative value judgement there; gimme a couple of examples of 'screwing up too bad' to see what sort of ball park we're in here.

[DSmaster21]

Pull a Nixon or Clinton (ie break our trust). maybe even run some one down in a horse drawn buggy (yes a president did this one time (it was an accident)). And yes I realize I am not the perfect citizen. I personally subscribe to the if you want to be in politics then you shouldn't be allowed to.

[Lord Hosk]

Without getting too far off track, George W Bush inherited the economic bubble created by the early Clinton era deregulation and optimism, his time in office ended with the bubble bursting which was a result of continuations of Clinton era deregulation and was certainly not helped by the massive mismanagement of the Iraq war.

I dont know how economists view the British economy, it being much smaller I assume is more agile and reacts to change more quickly but in the US the overall consensus is that it takes 6 to 10 years for the policies driven by the oval office to show real effect on main street. Presidents are always a product of the fortunes that befall them. I disagree with a lot of what Bush did in office, I would have preferred McCain be there but with a choice between Bush and Gore in the chair, I am glad it wasn't Gore.

In the same way having Margaret Thatcher in office in 1982 was what Britain needed. Also she gets a lot of heat for putting unemployment on the back burner in the early 80's but look at the inflation rates she was coming into. 1980--18.00% 1979--13.40% 1978--8.30% 1977--15.80% 1976--16.50% 1975--24.20% 1974--16.00% Think about that for a second, a pound minted in 1977 was worth 48 pence in 1980. Money lost 52% of its value over 4 years. Its very possible that the economy could have simply collapsed as no one would accept or trade British currency. Now thats hypothetical but its possible.

[My pseudonym is Ix]

I dont know how economists view the British economy, it being much smaller I assume is more agile and reacts to change more quickly...

Not a bloody chance. At least America's got some of its manufacturing economy left for when the shit hits the fan (the one and only thing I feel qualified to disagree with Thatcher on).

Now, not being alive when Thatcher was in power, I am in absolutely no place to offer an opinion. However, I am in a place to link a video of somebody getting very, very angry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... DtClJYJBj8

Thoughts?

[Geoff_B]

Now, not being alive when Thatcher was in power, I am in absolutely no place to offer an opinion.

Oh how I wish other people would be this sensible rather than organising "parties" and "celebrations"

[empath]

I dont know how economists view the British economy, it being much smaller I assume is more agile and reacts to change more quickly...

Not a bloody chance. At least America's got some of its manufacturing economy left for when the shit hits the fan (the one and only thing I feel qualified to disagree with Thatcher on).

Now, not being alive when Thatcher was in power, I am in absolutely no place to offer an opinion. However, I am in a place to link a video of somebody getting very, very angry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... DtClJYJBj8

Thoughts?

Typical partisan rhetoric from both the shrivelled, shrewish woman, and the corpulent, condescending man; (what Jackson said wasn't necessarily WRONG, mind) and then we get to 7'10"...

[DSmaster21]

7 feet 10 inches?

[My pseudonym is Ix]

I presume that bit where mr bercow makes his speech. For a change, I'm actually proud to have him as my mp.

[Elomin Sha]

Ding Dong the Witch is Dead has reached Number 1 on iTunes in the UK. Tories are asking BBC Radio 1 not to play it (Radio 1 plays top five from a range of charts). I would have asked for Radio 1 not to be around at all.

[Geoff_B]

Question Time was interesting last night. Had a Russian girl and an Indian man basically asking what impression was being given of our country by people celebrating the death of a prime minister.

This whole thing about parties to celebrate the fact that a life has ended makes me feel very uncomfortable and not at all proud to be British.

[Ptangmatik]

It shows that we have genuine freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
I respect their right to celebrate, even though I don't respect those who would celebrate.
Also a lot of idiots.

[Elomin Sha]

It's probably a tradition that we've had for years of lampooning those in power taken a little too far.

[Geoff_B]

It shows that we have genuine freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
I respect their right to celebrate, even though I don't respect those who would celebrate.
Also a lot of idiots.

I wish there was a "like" button on these posts, but failing that, +1.

To me it seems that people are celebrating her death because they didn't like her policies and the changes she brought about (whether they are justified or unjustified is a different matter). So logically then we should celebrate the death of the current Prime Minister - David Cameron - for failing to address the current economic crisis and for raising tuition fees to £30,000 for a three year course (up from £10,000) in approximately 50 years time. Oh and also Tony Blair for leading us into Iraq and Afghanistan on a crusade which really didn't turn out too well for anyone involved.

You're probably going to say "it's not the same" which is fine as long as you explain exactly why it isn't the same.

[Ptangmatik]

It's probably a tradition that we've had for years of lampooning those in power taken a little too far.

I suppose it all started with the 'Alternative comedy' scene, with people like Alexi Sayle, Jeremy Hardy and Harry Enfield dissolving in impotent rage at the amount of crap the ruling class heaped onto the poor during the Thatcher years. Thus this rage became cool, while most people completely miss the subtle reflective nature of many of their jokes where they admit they aren't much better.

The internet of course gives everyone anonymity, yet since everyone wants to be noticed and they see that the news reports the most vitriolic responses, that becomes a MASSIVE spiraling pissing contest.
How about this for a spiraling 'reasonableness' contest? (yes, I am a leftie)

[Elomin Sha]

I meant from the 180s in satirical newspaper cartoons.