Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

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Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby I X » 05 Jun 2013, 11:00

Ah NOW. This needs to stop. :/ And people defending it also need to stop. Yuck. Yuck, dude.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Darkobra » 05 Jun 2013, 11:06

That is utterly disgusting.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Metcarfre » 05 Jun 2013, 11:07

All these faces that need punching!
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby General Michi » 05 Jun 2013, 11:37

You know, maybe censoring the internet isn't such a bad idea.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby MattAn » 05 Jun 2013, 11:41

I ain't gonna lie, I think you may have mistaken my posts in the other thread somewhat, I X.
I'm in no way supporting this shit. Hell no. I'm reading through the screenshot'd tweets and I hate humanity more and more as I do it. I am glad Lindy notes that it doesn't cause it but contributes. As far as I'm concerned, being quite the stand-up comedy nerd (like the Nerdist, Chris Hardwick is, I love comedy podcasts, etc), I do see where Jim Norton is coming from. I don't exactly think he's funny, actually. Not even in the slightest, really.

I don't like the certain few comedians who feel that the stage is their place to talk about cruel/taboo topics. I hate Daniel Tosh, for example. He's a douchebag. His "comedy" attracts fellow douchebags that follow his every word.

Conversely, watch anything Anthony Jeselnik does.
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His comedy is quite often what would be referred to as "insults". He has a show on Comedy Central called The Jeselnik Offensive. He'll talk about racism, etc. He's rather critical about it and he stands by his words. But he's also not going around telling people what to think. There have been times when people may not laugh at a joke or whatever of his, but he'll stand by it and go "Well, I thought it was funny" and move on. People are allowed to not like it. That said, I think this is mostly an American issue, seeing as the whole "freedom of speech" argument is more patriotic or whatever there. Sure, it's a problem here in Australia too, we sure ain't a classy bunch down here, but I think there's a limit between "tolerating" a joke, and it literally going too far.

People have (well, they should.. But I can't honestly say everyone does) brains. They can/should be able to think for themselves about what is morally right and wrong.

There is a way to talk about "uncomfortable" topics and not be an absolute raging douche whilst doing so. A vast majority of comedy is "laughing at the expense of others", or in many cases, the comedian themselves. I know of one or two comedians who used to (keyword here, because they stopped, found it wasn't right for "their craft") make jokes about things like rape at their own expense. They were the punchline, rather than anyone else. Not saying I think that's any better, but I'm just saying I do understand why Jim Norton would defend his stance. It doesn't help when there are dumb shitheads like... The examples in that article. They ruin it for everyone.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Deedles » 05 Jun 2013, 11:46

And I was just starting to calm down from reading about the fake abortion clinics ...
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Sieg Reyu » 05 Jun 2013, 11:54

From the same site and an article that I agree with.

http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby MattAn » 05 Jun 2013, 12:01

Deedles wrote:And I was just starting to calm down from reading about the fake abortion clinics ...

Thewhatnow? o.O Holy shit.. :/

I have to say, I can't ever approve of the hardcore Christian view that "abortion should be adoption" thing.. Even due to rape. I just.. I can't even begin to deal with that logic. It should be up to literally no one else what somebody decides to do with their body. Ugh..

Rapists are vile scum, pathetic excuses for human beings. I will never think otherwise.

EDIT:

I actually agree with Daniel Tosh's sentiment in his shitty back-pedaling tweet ("The point I was making before I was heckled is there are awful things in the world but you can still make jokes about them #deadbabies"). The world is full of terrible things, including rape, and it is okay to joke about them. But the best comics use their art to call bullshit on those terrible parts of life and make them better, not worse.


Yep, pretty much nailed it there, Lindy. I, like Sieg, agree with the article. Both sides are equally wrong. Horrible things exist in the world, but that's no reason jokes can't be made about those horrible things. Wishing said horrible things on others though, yeah, that's all kinds of fucked up. As I said, I've known of comedians who self-deprecate themselves. The victim is.. Them, in that situation. They are putting themselves in that horrible position. In instances like that.. I can't say I disapprove. That's their decision and they are literally not harming anyone but themselves. It isn't an invitation at all.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Deedles » 05 Jun 2013, 12:07

MattAn wrote:
Deedles wrote:And I was just starting to calm down from reading about the fake abortion clinics ...

Thewhatnow? o.O Holy shit.. :/

I have to say, I can't ever approve of the hardcore Christian view that "abortion should be adoption" thing.. Even due to rape. I just.. I can't even begin to deal with that logic. It should be up to literally no one else what somebody decides to do with their body. Ugh..

And for some added context, a past girlfriend was raped. Before I met her. Rapists are vile scum, pathetic excuses for human beings. I will never think otherwise.


Someone posted this link in the Venting Thread - http://voxlunch.tumblr.com/post/52183453407/whereisthekidwiththechemicals
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby MattAn » 05 Jun 2013, 12:11

Deedles wrote:Someone posted this link in the Venting Thread -

......Excuse me for a moment. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-----
I can't.. I.. don't.. I.. What. No words. I just can't words.

(Alex has a Tumblr? *follows*)

Also, going through that article further.. I still think hecklers are fucking arseholes. No matter what instance it is, you sit down in that chair, you shut up, you listen to a person on stage speaking, you can laugh or not laugh. Say whatever the hell you like after the show, but don't ever do it during. I've been to live stand-up shows, certain comedians are more than happy to chat to the audience (crowd work is very important to many comedians), but nothing is stopping you from just walking out. I've heard of some very stupid instances of punters seeing a show and ruining the entire night (that said, there's also the drunk morons who just abuse for the sake of abusing, they can STFU too). Bottom line, literally nothing is stopping you from walking out. The comedian can comment on it all they like, but there's absolutely no reason to make such a big deal out of leaving the room if you are not enjoying the show.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Sieg Reyu » 05 Jun 2013, 12:36

For anyone who has not seen Bo Burnham's comedy special "Word, Words, Words" I highly suggest you do so. I can't remember if rape is addressed in his act, but he does make jokes about several controversial topics such as racism, religion, and domestic abuse. However, in the context of the show, they are very socially progressive. Grade A satire. He extensively mocks comics who appeal to the lowest common denominator, as well as entertainers who think they are better than everyone else.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Metcarfre » 05 Jun 2013, 12:38

Sieg Reyu wrote:From the same site and an article that I agree with.

http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke

Same author, even.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby MattAn » 05 Jun 2013, 12:48

Sieg Reyu wrote:For anyone who has not seen Bo Burnham's comedy special "Word, Words, Words" I highly suggest you do so. I can't remember if rape is addressed in his act, but he does make jokes about several controversial topics such as racism, religion, and domestic abuse. However, in the context of the show, they are very socially progressive. Grade A satire. He extensively mocks comics who appeal to the lowest common denominator, as well as entertainers who think they are better than everyone else.

I stopped reading at "Bo Burnham". That dude is fucking awesome. Loved his You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes episode! He's actually been on twice, I think!

Speaking of which, Pete Holmes. Also a great comedian!

Part of me did sigh when Lindy referenced one of Dave Anthony's tweets in the Tosh article.. I'm also a big fan of Dave's.. Mostly thanks to the Walking The Room podcast (with Dave and Greg Behrendt) "Cuddlah for fukkin' life! Clown from the neck down!", etc. Such a great, loving, supportive community too (both men and women!) I really do think Lindy misunderstood waht Dave was talking about during that (he's stated many times he doesn't like Tosh..)
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby I X » 05 Jun 2013, 13:13

MattAn wrote:I ain't gonna lie, I think you may have mistaken my posts in the other thread somewhat, I X.
I'm in no way supporting this shit. Hell no. I'm reading through the screenshot'd tweets and I hate humanity more and more as I do it. I am glad Lindy notes that it doesn't cause it but contributes. As far as I'm concerned, being quite the stand-up comedy nerd (like the Nerdist, Chris Hardwick is, I love comedy podcasts, etc), I do see where Jim Norton is coming from. I don't exactly think he's funny, actually. Not even in the slightest, really.


Fair enough. I'd rather not have a two-thread-spanning discussion about it. You just happened to reference it so perfectly that I had to link it. But I don't think I did misinterpret you. You said:
MattAn (in that other thread*) wrote:This same argument is happening in the stand-up comedy scene. What is "funny" to one person is definitely not "funny" to another person. Is either person wrong? No, because comedy is subjective. You don't have to find it funny, but if others do, who are you to dictate otherwise.. Right?


I don't agree with that. As Matt said, it's not about what's funny. It's about normalising things that have no right to normalisation. It's not just rape. Violence is another one that goes wayyyy 'round. And I do not agree, at all, with that. Violence is harder to curtail and, in all honesty, a bit less controversial, so it gets more play and is in general more accepted. Not saying that's okay, either. (As such, I'm not singling out your opinion on this.) But rape is that little step from 'you're weak so I can beat you in a fight' to 'you're weak so I can ruin you forever'**.

*For posterity

**To be clear, not suggesting in any way that being raped does ruin a person forever, but it certainly could be seen as a lasting, negative change from their own point of view, so I exaggerated a little to make the point.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby MattAn » 05 Jun 2013, 13:30

I X wrote:I don't agree with that. As Matt said, it's not about what's funny. It's about normalising things that have no right to normalisation. It's not just rape. Violence is another one that goes wayyyy 'round. And I do not agree, at all, with that. Violence is harder to curtail and, in all honesty, a bit less controversial, so it gets more play and is in general more accepted. Not saying that's okay, either. (As such, I'm not singling out your opinion on this.) But rape is that little step from 'you're weak so I can beat you in a fight' to 'you're weak so I can ruin you forever'.

Yeah, have to say you may have, in fact, misinterpreted what I was intending by what I said. Sorry, that's my bad for not clarifying properly. D:

But as I stated in a previous post in this thread (Lindy mentions it too!), talking about it on stage is not wrong. It really isn't. Yes, there are limits before it becomes silly, hateful, abusive or straight up dumb on the comedians part, but that's most likely because they aren't a good enough comedian/satirist.

Lindy mentions people like John Mulaney and Louis CK, who in my opinion, are GODS of comedy. They make what one would class as "rape jokes" or other "unsettling" or "taboo" topics.. But they're either making themselves the punchline or noting that it's a horrible thing that sadly happens. Bringing attention to it isn't necessarily a bad thing. One could argue that it's "critiquing the worst of humanity by way of humour". This isn't exactly outright "bad". There are comedians who approach the topic very, very well, so as to not victimize/shame victims of rape, but.. Empower them, I guess? One of the comments below that Jezebel article is from a rape victim, stating how Richard Pryor had many jokes about rape, but he always made it clear that it's a horrible, nasty thing and that rapists are vile scum. It's not "absolving blame", there's absolutely no reason why they can't talk about it on stage. It's, sadly, a thing that exists. Comedians comment and joke about things in society. It can sometimes be seen as a coping mechanism for grief or pain.

All that said, there are plenty of horrendously shitty comedians who are blatantly out there to offend anyone and everyone. I'm not condoning it at all, I think it's incredibly insensitive. But I don't think certain topics should be entirely censored/ruled out because of a few vocal shitheads.
There's a reason why so many people hate Dane Cook. He's a vile douchebag. The Laugh Factory is known for its vicious comedians. Daniel Tosh and Dane Cook are but two examples.

I X wrote:**To be clear, not suggesting in any way that being raped does ruin a person forever, but it certainly could be seen as a lasting, negative change from their own point of view, so I exaggerated a little to make the point.

**And I understood what you meant, but even so, I'd very much hope that you didn't intend to mean "ruined forever".. Considering.. Well, my ex-girlfriend. :/ There are some vile disgraces of "human beings" out there..
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Sieg Reyu » 05 Jun 2013, 13:45

I often find that's its that that one particular subject is exempt from making jokes about, or that all joke that are made about it it are bad. It just so happens that the people who make these "jokes" are just terrible comedians who think that saying something offensive is the main only ingredient necessary for comedy gold.

There are no bad topics, just way too many terrible comedians. Like, 95%
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Matt » 05 Jun 2013, 13:50

Sieg Reyu wrote:I often find that's its that that one particular subject is exempt from making jokes about, or that all joke that are made about it it are bad. It just so happens that the people who make these "jokes" are just terrible comedians who think that saying something offensive is the main only ingredient necessary for comedy gold.

There are no bad topics, just way too many terrible comedians. Like, 95%


Which is why comments about censorship are so absurd. The goal of calling attention to and criticizing these jokes and comedians isn't to say "you're not allowed to make these jokes" - obviously you're "allowed" to make them, and no one can stop you.

The argument being made is that if you're a good comedian and a decent person, you should neither need nor want to make lazy, abusive, hurtful, shock-humour jokes.

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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby I X » 05 Jun 2013, 13:53

MattAn wrote:
I X wrote:I don't agree with that. As Matt said, it's not about what's funny. It's about normalising things that have no right to normalisation. It's not just rape. Violence is another one that goes wayyyy 'round. And I do not agree, at all, with that. Violence is harder to curtail and, in all honesty, a bit less controversial, so it gets more play and is in general more accepted. Not saying that's okay, either. (As such, I'm not singling out your opinion on this.) But rape is that little step from 'you're weak so I can beat you in a fight' to 'you're weak so I can ruin you forever'.

Yeah, have to say you may have, in fact, misinterpreted what I was intending by what I said. Sorry, that's my bad for not clarifying properly. D:

But as I stated in a previous post in this thread (Lindy mentions it too!), talking about it on stage is not wrong. It really isn't. Yes, there are limits before it becomes silly, hateful, abusive or straight up dumb on the comedians part, but that's most likely because they aren't a good enough comedian/satirist.

Lindy mentions people like John Mulaney and Louis CK, who in my opinion, are GODS of comedy. They make what one would class as "rape jokes" or other "unsettling" or "taboo" topics.. But they're either making themselves the punchline or noting that it's a horrible thing that sadly happens. Bringing attention to it isn't necessarily a bad thing. One could argue that it's "critiquing the worst of humanity by way of humour". This isn't exactly outright "bad". There are comedians who approach the topic very, very well, so as to not victimize/shame victims of rape, but.. Empower them, I guess? One of the comments below that Jezebel article is from a rape victim, stating how Richard Pryor had many jokes about rape, but he always made it clear that it's a horrible, nasty thing and that rapists are vile scum. It's not "absolving blame", there's absolutely no reason why they can't talk about it on stage. It's, sadly, a thing that exists. Comedians comment and joke about things in society. It can sometimes be seen as a coping mechanism for grief or pain.

All that said, there are plenty of horrendously shitty comedians who are blatantly out there to offend anyone and everyone. I'm not condoning it at all, I think it's incredibly insensitive. But I don't think certain topics should be entirely censored/ruled out because of a few vocal shitheads.
There's a reason why so many people hate Dane Cook. He's a vile douchebag. The Laugh Factory is known for its vicious comedians. Daniel Tosh and Dane Cook are but two examples.


You're making points here, but I still don't see how I misinterpreted you. You think it's acceptable, and I don't. It's that easy. Empowering rape victims is a great thing, but I'm not fully sure we can do that with jokes, no matter how good the comedy or satire skills of those involved.

Matt wrote:Which is why comments about censorship are so absurd. The goal of calling attention to and criticizing these jokes and comedians isn't to say "you're not allowed to make these jokes" - obviously you're "allowed" to make them, and no one can stop you.

The argument being made is that if you're a good comedian and a decent person, you should neither need nor want to make lazy, abusive, hurtful, shock-humour jokes.

-m


Not saying Matt and I are absolutely on the same page here, because I don't really like doing that, but I definitely agree with this. There are better topics, ones that don't contribute to rape culture. Keep in mind that I am including 'you're going to prison? DON'T DROP THE SOAP LOL' here. That's one people often forget about and let slip by.

MattAn wrote:**And I understood what you meant, but even so, I'd very much hope that you didn't intend to mean "ruined forever".. Considering.. Well, my ex-girlfriend. :/ There are some vile disgraces of "human beings" out there..


I'd appreciate if you'd include my clarification in your quote. You can clearly see that's not what I meant or intended to mean. I feel bad for your ex-girlfriend dude, truly. It shouldn't happen to anyone. :(
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby MattAn » 05 Jun 2013, 14:08

I X wrote:You're making points here, but I still don't see how I misinterpreted you. You think it's acceptable, and I don't. It's that easy. Empowering rape victims is a great thing, but I'm not fully sure we can do that with jokes, no matter how good the comedy or satire skills of those involved.

I'm also going by the article on Jezebel. I'm sure we can respectfully agree to disagree on that point, at least. Everything else, seems pretty legit. :D No issues here, really.

I X wrote:Not saying Matt and I are absolutely on the same page here, because I don't really like doing that, but I definitely agree with this. There are better topics, ones that don't contribute to rape culture. Keep in mind that I am including 'you're going to prison? DON'T DROP THE SOAP LOL' here. That's one people often forget about and let slip by.

Okay, I'll be honest, I am probably guilty for prison-related jokes myself. I can't say I mean anything seriously you guys this is factual I totally believe this because I'm saying it as words.. One of the many comedy podcasts I listen to (TOFOP, otherwise known as FOFOP recently, while one co-host is acting on Australian TV, the other co-host, Australian comedian Wil Anderson, continues doing it with guest hosts.. The disclaimer at the start of every episodes very jokingly, though also seriously states that it's Rated MA (Mature Audiences in Australia), features "some coarse language, some nudity (on an audio podcast, lolololjokes), a sex scene (again, audio podcast, complete nonsense), prison rape, time travel, terrible Batman impersonations and mild coarse language. Minors must be accompanied by an adult guardian, or priest." This is legitimately at the beginning of every episode, whether any of it is related to the episode or not. And it's not at all victimizing anyone, whenever it's brought up, it's more of an honest, serious note, or a personal defensive stance (with a slight quip or two, maybe, not always)..
I, personally, feel uncomfortable with rape jokes and such. It has to have some damn relevant context for it to be a "joke" to me. I can't say I'm against other people laughing about it though.

I should also note, Wil Anderson is.. Kind of a big deal in Australia. He's one of our most popular comedians and TV presenters. His live one-hour shows are very thoughtful and insightful, he's a great storyteller.. But he also tells dick jokes. He doesn't deny that.

UPDATE: Turns out the "prison rape" mention in the disclaimer was on the old TOFOP podcast, FOFOP adds "time travel, terrible Batman impersonations and a large Charlie Clausen (pronounced Clawesone)-shaped hole.." The prison rape mention is entirely removed. Huh.

I X wrote:I'd appreciate if you'd include my clarification in your quote. You can clearly see that's not what I meant or intended to mean. I feel bad for your ex-girlfriend dude, truly. It shouldn't happen to anyone. :(

Oh, I understood that! Sorry I didn't quote it, it was a very brief edit.. D: Literally no bitterness or maliciousness in my response whatsoever. Totally fine! :)

EDIT: For reference, Wil Anderson at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival Gala 2011 and 2013's Gala.
He's improved and changed a lot of how he actually performs his comedy as well, post-hip-issues.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Matt » 05 Jun 2013, 14:13

I X wrote:
Matt wrote:Which is why comments about censorship are so absurd. The goal of calling attention to and criticizing these jokes and comedians isn't to say "you're not allowed to make these jokes" - obviously you're "allowed" to make them, and no one can stop you.

The argument being made is that if you're a good comedian and a decent person, you should neither need nor want to make lazy, abusive, hurtful, shock-humour jokes.

-m


Not saying Matt and I are absolutely on the same page here, because I don't really like doing that, but I definitely agree with this. There are better topics, ones that don't contribute to rape culture. Keep in mind that I am including 'you're going to prison? DON'T DROP THE SOAP LOL' here. That's one people often forget about and let slip by.


We're pretty close. I do think there is such a thing as a "good" rape joke (being at the expense of rapists or rape culture), but at the same time I think it also behooves those making them to have enough skill as a comedian and empathy as a human being to craft such a joke and understand its implications.

And yes, I too would classify the prison rape jokes among those that are harmful and normalizing.

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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby I X » 05 Jun 2013, 14:17

Matt wrote:
I X wrote:
Matt wrote:Which is why comments about censorship are so absurd. The goal of calling attention to and criticizing these jokes and comedians isn't to say "you're not allowed to make these jokes" - obviously you're "allowed" to make them, and no one can stop you.

The argument being made is that if you're a good comedian and a decent person, you should neither need nor want to make lazy, abusive, hurtful, shock-humour jokes.

-m


Not saying Matt and I are absolutely on the same page here, because I don't really like doing that, but I definitely agree with this. There are better topics, ones that don't contribute to rape culture. Keep in mind that I am including 'you're going to prison? DON'T DROP THE SOAP LOL' here. That's one people often forget about and let slip by.


We're pretty close. I do think there is such a thing as a "good" rape joke (being at the expense of rapists or rape culture), but at the same time I think it also behooves those making them to have enough skill as a comedian and empathy as a human being to craft such a joke and understand its implications.

And yes, I too would classify the prison rape jokes among those that are harmful and normalizing.

-m


I guess I'm kind of avoiding the 'good' rape jokes. Because in that very specific context, yes, they do exist. But just by acknowledging that fact in the past I have opened the door to many slippery slope arguments (even within my inner debates). Certainly I have laughed at the good and (more distantly in the past) the bad in rape jokes, but I also used to wear a fedora* and gel my hair alllll the way back.

We grow up. These days, it'd better be a damn good one.

*And a trilby. Or just one type of hat. But I had two. They were similar.
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Matt » 05 Jun 2013, 14:19

I X wrote:We grow up. These days, it'd better be a damn good one.


I think we're pretty much in accord here.

-m
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I X
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby I X » 05 Jun 2013, 14:19

Matt wrote:
I X wrote:We grow up. These days, it'd better be a damn good one.


I think we're pretty much in accord here.

-m


Good to hear. :)
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Note: in Ireland 'ye' is used as the plural of 'you'. It rather neatly avoids confusion online.

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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby Metcarfre » 05 Jun 2013, 14:42

Congrats on losing the hat, by the way.
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I X
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Re: Rape Jokes: Still A Problem

Postby I X » 05 Jun 2013, 14:52

Metcarfre wrote:Congrats on losing the hat, by the way.


Thanks. In fairness, I only wore it in the first place because I laughed so much on the first look in the mirror. Same with the hair. And...the beard, too. Dark enough times when self-deprecation is your reason for doing things. >.>
Often outnumbered, never outpunned.

Note: in Ireland 'ye' is used as the plural of 'you'. It rather neatly avoids confusion online.

"Your accent is...ubiquitous."
-Graham Stark

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