Justin Carter, or, Why Do Canadians Hate Free Speech?

[Cybren]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.1391286
tldr: someone tells this guy he's crazy, he responds “I think I’ma shoot up a kindergarten. And watch the blood of the innocent rain down. And eat the beating heart of one of them.”

One can infer from context that that was, iunno, a joke. But someone reported it to the police and he got arrested.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/3 ... -c-w-cooke
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/0 ... 42770.html

[Elomin Sha]

Fire! FIRE!

Not free speech. My opinion is that kids have to learn there are consequences for what you do or say. And so soon after Sandy Hook there will be a slight knee jerk reaction.

[Lord Hosk]

While I agree that people need to know that their words have meanings and their are consequences to their actions I think him being charged with conspiracy to commit terrorism, making terrorist threats disturbing the peace and several other charges for making a stupid comment on facebook. Then based on the complete lack of any supporting evidence the judge placed $500,000 bond on him for a comment made in bad taste at the wrong time. The eighth amendment clearly states "Excessive bail shall not be required..."

He is being held in rather brutal conditions because he made one stupid comment and someone unknown woman from another country called the police because clearly he has every intention to do this based on his previous heinous postings like "going to McDonalds" and "About to play some LOL with my bros"

[Cybren]

Fire! FIRE!

Not free speech. My opinion is that kids have to learn there are consequences for what you do or say. And so soon after Sandy Hook there will be a slight knee jerk reaction.

1) Shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater is 'unprotected speech' because it can directly incite violence. Saying "I am going to shoot up a school lol im so crazy yeah" when someone calls you crazy does not.
2) Shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater is a dumb example and a dumb reference to a dumb trial where the US supreme court pooped all over the constitution with a dumb ruling
3) The consequence of him making that statement was some number of people were offended. The consequence of him being arrested is untold financial damage, humiliation, duress, and the taking of months to years of his life (this is before he has even been convicted, because of the ridiculous bail).
4) The US First Amendment protects speech and modern judicial tests require that there be a direct incitement to violence, not a vague notion of it. Harm more substantial than "i got a little uncomfortable" has to be done for speech to not be protected.

[Metcarfre]

Why is this thread titled the way it is, is what I want to know.

[MinniChi]

Because it was a woman in Canada (according to the story) who called the police. At least far as I can infer.

[Elomin Sha]

Not equating myself to the man but does that make Hitchens dumb for using the 'Fire' analogy in his speeches?
If you say something like that kid did how do they know he didn't mean it?

[TheRocket]

He made a very serious, dumb statement. And he's now suffering the consequences of it. If the police had not reacted the way they did and he did, in fact do what he said - people would cry out why was nothing done by peers when he made that statement? Why wasn't it taken seriously?

People need to stop talking about taking violent actions against other human beings as jokes in public forums. I see it happen all the time on here and I feel like it's only a matter of time before it's taken seriously by someone. It's a dumb thing to do.

This kid unfortunately made a mistake that is costing him dearly, but it has nothing to do with Canadians hating free speech, and everything to do with someone making an extremely inappropriate and alarming statement. Do you know his mental health situation? Do you know if he is capable and willing to have his statements turn into actions? He's probably just a normal teen that made a dumb remark, but with all the school shootings and acts of terrorism that have been happening people are taking these things seriously, as they should.

Stating a threat is not a vague notion of violence. It's an outright statement of willingness and forethought to committing a violent act. I feel bad for this kid having to learn consequences in the way he is, but maybe people will be more careful with their "jokes" now.

[King Kool]

Fire! FIRE!

My response to THAT:

http://ethicsalarms.com/2013/07/02/the-persecution-of-justin-carter-and-the-consequences-of-fear-mongering-if-this-doesnt-make-you-angry-somethings-the-matter-with-you/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyoOfRog1EM

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

My opinion:

Him getting police round his house is enough of a punishment.

He needs to learn that what you say can be taken out of context.
If he does it again, then he should be fined (a small amount).

Prison is for villains like rapists and murderers. Having a shite sense of humour isn't villainous.

[Sieg Reyu]

Its all about context. Fuck people who can't understand that. Context is the most important thing to ever exist ever but no one fucking cares and I just want to bitch slap everyone.

[Cybren]

Not equating myself to the man but does that make Hitchens dumb for using the 'Fire' analogy in his speeches?
If you say something like that kid did how do they know he didn't mean it?

You and Hitchens are both not dumb.
It's obvious based on context that it was a joke, and regardless, even if it were not a joke, it should not be illegal (and is not illegal in the us given the first amendment)

[Lord Hosk]

The trouble with this is that everything I am hearing from "unofficial statements" by authorities is that they are making an example out of him.

He will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of...being given a plea bargain in like 6 months where he agrees to time served plus 6 months probation.

The poor kids life is going to be forever tainted by a stupid no direct remark he made when he was angry over losing at a game. Is this partially his fault for making a boneheaded statement? Yes. Is this partially his parents fault for not teaching him to be mindful? Yes. Is this much more about the Sheriff, County Prosecutor and Judge being all "look what we did, we didn't let another bad thing happen WE ARE AWESOME"? Yes.

In the context of his postings which a couple of months ago were available online but I cant find them now, he was a regular stupid middle class privileged kid raised by the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the Power Rangers whose parents bought him things to make him happy. Is it possible that he had some real plans to commit the violent act he described sure it is, however in the time and the context it seems FAR FAR more likely that he was using a current event to poorly express his frustration. if it had been a year earlier he probably would have said "Im going to go kill a 2 year old then hide the body and go party"

What he posted wasn't right or ok, the overblown response is just as bad, Im not saying he didnt do anything let him go. But the number of things he is being charged with and the reported way he is being treated is not a appropriate response to a single non specific threat. He didnt say "im going down to West Texas Elementary", or "Let me grab my Rugar 2752 and drive down to 15th and Eastville" He didn't make repeated statements about doing this, the search of his home computer and internet history have reportedly turned up no indication of planning or prior discussions but the judge refuses to reduce his bail or hear anything that his lawyers have brought forward to get him released.

Overreaction doesnt prevent crimes it creates lawsuits for abuse of power.

[Sieg Reyu]

I'm getting real sick and tired of Texas's shit. We should just give the entire state to Mexico. We don't want it anymore.

[AlexanderDitto]

People need to stop talking about taking violent actions against other human beings as jokes in public forums. I see it happen all the time on here and I feel like it's only a matter of time before it's taken seriously by someone. It's a dumb thing to do.

I agree with this. It's super dumb for people to be saying these things. Nevertheless,

He made a very serious, dumb statement. And he's now suffering the consequences of it. If the police had not reacted the way they did and he did, in fact do what he said - people would cry out why was nothing done by peers when he made that statement? Why wasn't it taken seriously?

The price we pay for living in a society where we're afforded freedom is that we can't come to expect the government to protect us from every single bad thing that could ever happen. There's a trade-off between privacy/free speech and security/safety. A government that listened to everything everyone ever said and punished accordingly could do a very good job of keeping us all "safe," but 1984 isn't an example we want to emulate.

Do you know his mental health situation? Do you know if he is capable and willing to have his statements turn into actions? He's probably just a normal teen that made a dumb remark, but with all the school shootings and acts of terrorism that have been happening people are taking these things seriously, as they should.

No, we don't, and neither do the news reports, so it's impossible to comment with any sort of certainty. There may be more to the story. If the police didn't look into any of these things, and instead just put him in jail to make an example out of him, that would probably be in violation of his first amendment rights. $500,000 bail seems fairly excessive, given that there seems to be no actual action taken by the guy or any indication that there was physical evidence of intent (like a weapon or ammunition) beyond the statement.

[Jimor]

And yet people like Ted Nugent and Orson Scott Card make direct statements about violent overthrow of the government that reach millions, and the worst thing that happened was Ted had a polite meeting with the Secret Service.

Investigate, yes, and afterwards, make it clear he's on a short leash if he makes any other kinds of stupid statements like that, but this is ridiculous.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

I hate convictions done 'to make an example of'. It's just a self-righteous way of getting out of being corrupted.

You shouldn't be arrested for making a shit joke. The closest Jimmy Carr has been was through Tax Avoidance.
Oh shit, I hear the sirens...

[Metcarfre]

Because it was a woman in Canada (according to the story) who called the police. At least far as I can infer.

Yeah, but that has nothing at all to do with free speech. She saw a message that she interpreted as being dangerous and threatening and, rightly, decided to report it to the authorities.

Free speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of those words or having carte blanche to say whatever one wishes without authorities becoming involved. To believe otherwise is foolish.

[Lord Hosk]

I would like to hear more about this woman in Canada too. Im not saying she did the wrong thing im just curious how she read the Facebook post of some kid in Texas who she apparently had no connection to since she had to Google him to find out where he lived so she could call the police to report him. I know that Facebook keeps automatically changing who CAN see your posts but even if he posted it as viewable by everyone it wouldn't just show up on everyone's wall. Did a friend of a friend of a friend say "hey look what this dofus said"? was she searching for this kind of thing and reporting anything she was offended by to the local police and this one just happens to be the one we are hearing about?

The more I read about this story and see the same thing about the woman "They were contacted by a woman in Canada who saw the post and Googled Carter's name to find his address" "A concerned Canadian woman saw the post and searched for his location online to contact the police"...

[AlexanderDitto]

Because it was a woman in Canada (according to the story) who called the police. At least far as I can infer.

Yeah, but that has nothing at all to do with free speech. She saw a message that she interpreted as being dangerous and threatening and, rightly, decided to report it to the authorities.

Free speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of those words or having carte blanche to say whatever one wishes without authorities becoming involved. To believe otherwise is foolish.

The question is what the consequences should be. From what's been described, it seems the usual "consequences" for something like this would be being reprimanded by the police, neighbors, and parents, not being charged with a crime.

It would be different if he had said something about targeting a specific school or individual, or if he had prior history of mental illness/run-ins with the police, etc, so we may not have the whole story here.

[Duckay]

I would like to hear more about this woman in Canada too. Im not saying she did the wrong thing im just curious how she read the Facebook post of some kid in Texas who she apparently had no connection to since she had to Google him to find out where he lived so she could call the police to report him. I know that Facebook keeps automatically changing who CAN see your posts but even if he posted it as viewable by everyone it wouldn't just show up on everyone's wall. Did a friend of a friend of a friend say "hey look what this dofus said"? was she searching for this kind of thing and reporting anything she was offended by to the local police and this one just happens to be the one we are hearing about?

The more I read about this story and see the same thing about the woman "They were contacted by a woman in Canada who saw the post and Googled Carter's name to find his address" "A concerned Canadian woman saw the post and searched for his location online to contact the police"...

There's a thousand and one ways she could have seen it without three friends sharing it or her looking for things to be offended by. Facebook has a little feed in the top corner that shows your friends' recent activity; all it would take is one mutual friend liking or commenting on it. (And one mutual friend that still keeps them distant is hardly impossible given how many people have huge lists of obscure acquaintances and friends people get so they can get ahead in Farmville).

[Lord Hosk]

Of course there are a million possible ways that she could have come across it, my point was we know nothing about it other than she clearly had no direct connection to him but her word of what he said being a direct threat seems to be the origin for the entire fiasco.

The reason that I say that is that this is the internet age, there is very little that we post that isnt public in some fashion as you pointed out. If anyone can read a comment online, even a comment that we can all agree is inappropriate and get the poster arrested because they didnt like what was said, its a dangerous slope. I have said inflammatory things, and while I dont put my real name out there, its not THAT hard to find if you want to do a little sleuthing. Could you call up the police in my town and get me arrested because of something I said and was reported out of context? I know that I cant afford the excessive $500,000 bail so I would be forced to sit in prison for months on end waiting for the slow moving ever clogged legal system to get me my "speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury"

This young man will have been imprisoned for 6 months before his case is put before a preliminary hearing. The only time he has interacted with the legal system to date was when he was arrested, charged and his bail was set, when his attorney at the time said it was excessive bail the judges reported response was a flipant "Im not changing it"

6 months in prison and not only has he not been found guilty of anything he hasn't had any chance to defend himself. When he gets released and I have every confidence that he will, he will have served over 6 months in prison because someone didnt like what he said.

[Duckay]

To an extent, this is in the nature of the internet, and it's difficult to deal with because a lot of systems still haven't caught up with it. We are talking about something where a) people you have never met can see what you're saying, b) a lot of context is missing and intonation is difficult to read, and c) things don't just go away easily.

It seems like every day that I hear a story about someone saying something online and that leading to real world consequences in some way, eliciting wildly different feelings depending on what that "something" is. I don't disagree at all that it seems on the surface like the arrest and bond amount is a tremendous overreaction, but there is still a part of me that can't help but wonder 'what if'. Why is it heartwarming to have some stranger on the internet call emergency services for a stranger they think is going to hurt themselves, and yet we criticize someone because they, as a stranger on the internet, called the police for a stranger they think is going to hurt others?

I know this gets into fairly irrelevant stuff, but I think it's worth pursuing at least mentally.

[Lord Hosk]

I dont mind her getting worried, I dont mind her calling. I mind that from the reports, the police acted on her phone call and arrested him, then when the investigation turned up nothing continued to hold him "to set an example"

THAT is the part that worries me, because that means that anyone who posts anything that can be taken out of context is subject to arrest and extended imprisonment because someone they dont know took something they said out of context because they didnt know or didnt care about the context and called the authorities.

[TheRocket]

People need to stop talking about taking violent actions against other human beings as jokes in public forums. I see it happen all the time on here and I feel like it's only a matter of time before it's taken seriously by someone. It's a dumb thing to do.

I agree with this. It's super dumb for people to be saying these things. Nevertheless,

He made a very serious, dumb statement. And he's now suffering the consequences of it. If the police had not reacted the way they did and he did, in fact do what he said - people would cry out why was nothing done by peers when he made that statement? Why wasn't it taken seriously?

The price we pay for living in a society where we're afforded freedom is that we can't come to expect the government to protect us from every single bad thing that could ever happen. There's a trade-off between privacy/free speech and security/safety. A government that listened to everything everyone ever said and punished accordingly could do a very good job of keeping us all "safe," but 1984 isn't an example we want to emulate.

Do you know his mental health situation? Do you know if he is capable and willing to have his statements turn into actions? He's probably just a normal teen that made a dumb remark, but with all the school shootings and acts of terrorism that have been happening people are taking these things seriously, as they should.

No, we don't, and neither do the news reports, so it's impossible to comment with any sort of certainty. There may be more to the story. If the police didn't look into any of these things, and instead just put him in jail to make an example out of him, that would probably be in violation of his first amendment rights. $500,000 bail seems fairly excessive, given that there seems to be no actual action taken by the guy or any indication that there was physical evidence of intent (like a weapon or ammunition) beyond the statement.

All very valid points. I definitely think they are going too far stringing this kid up as a warning to others. He is young, dumb and I think he's learned his lesson. Will this not go to a judge and jury? Or has it already?