The Sleep Thread

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Avistew
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The Sleep Thread

Postby Avistew » 15 Aug 2013, 13:20

Hey guys.

So all my life I've had sleep issues. As a kid I couldn't fall asleep and had lots of anxiety when trying to fall asleep. It's a bit hard to explain, but basically I was terrified that if I fell asleep I would die. I think it's due to the idea of people dying in their sleep, which, well, happens a lot, and people kept talking about how it was one of the better deaths because you don't notice...
I guess my child brain was terrified of that idea of dying without noticing and without being able to stop it. I had to make myself fine with the idea of dying before I could fall asleep, and it could take a very long time. Or I would pass out in exhaustion sometimes, too.

My parents tried tons of meds on me but they didn't work.

Later, as an adult, I tried different methods, including 28-hour days for instance, and nothing really helped. I was convinced I needed between 10 and 12 hours of sleep because I was exhausted with anything less.

So I ended up purchasing a sleep tracker, the Fitbit Flex (which also counts your steps and stuff like that, but I only got it for the sleep tracking).
At first, it told me I was asleep at times I absolutely knew I was awake.
Then I switched it from "normal"to "sensitive", and the data started looking right: it showed me as awake at times I knew I was awake.

At first it only told me things I already knew about (that it took me between an hour and a half and two hours to fall asleep when I'm alone in bed, and only between half an hour and an hour if my husband is in bed with me), but now it's been over a week and I can start seeing patterns in the data.

Last night for instance, I spent 11 hours and 36 minutes in bed. My actual time asleep was 4 hours and 47 minutes. This is pretty much the way it's been every night: between 10 and 12 hours in bed, between 3 and 5 hours of sleep.
I also woke up 25 times, which is actually the most so far.

Anyway, to sum up, I'm pretty sure I have some serious sleep disorders. Whenever I'm on Sean's health insurance (after we finally get married), I'll definitely look into it. Right now there isn't much I can do except changing a few factors.
For instance, we tried pets allowed in the room vs pets not allowed in the room. Made no difference. I took my allergy meds right before going to bed (they're drowsy), no difference. I also stopped drinking caffeine, no noticeable change.

The only changes I have noticed are being in bed alone vs in bed with someone else: I take longer to fall asleep on my own, and although I wake up less times during the night, it takes me longer to get back to sleep.

I figured other people might have their own sleep things they might want to talk about. For one thing it's always good to compare data: I thought taking an hour to fall asleep was normal until I saw an article about taking ages to fall asleep that started "If it's taking you more than 10 minutes to fall asleep..."
I don't think it's ever taken me as little as 10 minutes to fall asleep. Then again I'm pretty sure it takes Sean a minute or less. I thought he was the weird one, though.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Drecon » 16 Aug 2013, 01:48

I also have trouble falling asleep, although with me it's probably more linked to ADD than to anxiety.
My normal way of dealing with it is just to stay up until I get really tired and then go to bed, usually falling asleep in a normal amount of time. Doesn't really matter if that's around 12 or around 3 at night, that's the time I go to bed.

Then I make sure to set the alarm at the time I'd like to stand up and make sure to get out of bed at that time. That way, even when I get a night without sleep or with just 2 or 3 hours, there's a greater chance of me actually falling asleep the next night.

Other than that, I agree with going to sleep next to someone, has usually helped me too, especially if your day/night cycles line up a bit.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 16 Aug 2013, 04:19

I have never had serious sleep issues, but I've read around the issue and heard many weird and wonderful suggestions (WC Fields, for example, suffered from insomnia in later life that he found was best served by lying under a beach umbrella with a hose aimed so as to sprinkle water over it and allow him to pretend it was raining). The main bit of advice consistent through most 'experts' is the idea that, if you can't go to sleep, don't. Get up, read for half an hour or whatever (I know of one woman who used to make Victoria sponge cakes at 2 o clock every morning because of a somewhat odd sleep cycle), do something that means you aren't struggling and failing to fall asleep, otherwise the idea of sleep being a battle will just pervade.

Interestingly, I tend to find I'm a lot less tired after 8 hours sleep than I am after 9.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Master Gunner » 16 Aug 2013, 05:20

It typically takes me at least an hour to fall asleep, always has. When it comes to length of sleep though, I have incredibly poor habits that don't help (and those habits are not helped by all the people I like to talk to in time zones west of me). So normally I'm getting 5-6 hours of sleep a night, which admittedly is a lot better than most people with insomnia problems, but still leaves me useless until 2-3 hours after I "wake" up.

On weekends though, I get allll the sleep. 12-14 hours is not unusual.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby AlexanderDitto » 16 Aug 2013, 05:54

As a kid, I always had trouble falling asleep and staying asleep. I changed two things to fix that:

1. I realized my parents kept my room way too hot for me to fall asleep in. I keep my bedroom cold. Not just cool, but cold. If it's summer, I've got several fans going, and if it gets above 78 degrees, I close the windows and turn on the A/C, even if it's night time. In the winter, I just keep my bedroom windows open, even if it's below 50 degrees out.

2. I started lifting heavy. Running and other light cardio doesn't cut it for me. I have to lift heavy weights. Long-distance swimming (like >500 meters) also works. This gets my body physically tired, not just mentally tired like I usually am from my normal working/studying activities.

Once I made these two changes, I've never had trouble getting to sleep. I'm out like a light within 15 minutes of going to bed and I never wake up in the middle of the night. They may not work for everyone, but I would suggest trying them. Studies have shown that cold and exercise both tend to help people sleep.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 16 Aug 2013, 06:03

I can echo both of Ditto's points
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Metcarfre » 16 Aug 2013, 07:40

For me, a cool room helps (sheets are off these days), physical exertion helps (but I need time to wind down when i play ball hockey in the evenings), but the biggest thing for me was investing in a really good bed. Man, it's like falling asleep on the wings of angels. I used to take an hour or more to fall asleep, no I'm out in minutes.

Also, in terms of feeling awake/not tired, getting up at the same time every day has been the key for me. Admittedly I get up at what seems pretty early for many (~6 AM), but only rarely do I ever feel tired.

Going to bed before midnight isn't a bad idea, either; we have circadian rhythms for a reason.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby AlexanderDitto » 16 Aug 2013, 08:08

Metcarfre wrote:For me, a cool room helps (sheets are off these days), physical exertion helps (but I need time to wind down when i play ball hockey in the evenings), but the biggest thing for me was investing in a really good bed. Man, it's like falling asleep on the wings of angels. I used to take an hour or more to fall asleep, no I'm out in minutes.

Also, in terms of feeling awake/not tired, getting up at the same time every day has been the key for me. Admittedly I get up at what seems pretty early for many (~6 AM), but only rarely do I ever feel tired.

Going to bed before midnight isn't a bad idea, either; we have circadian rhythms for a reason.


Oh yeah, also this. Go to bed before midnight; figure out how long your REM cycles are (mine are about 90 minutes long, I think the average) and aim to sleep for a multiple of that. That's why I feel less groggy if I wake up after four and a half hours than if I wake up after seven hours (trying to wake up during a REM cycle is hard). My ideal is somewhere around 8.5, though I assume that'll change as I age.

I never understand why people are more than willing to spend money on fine china, jewelry, or dining room tables, but then when it comes to a mattress, they want the cheapest thing they can find from the mattress barn. Since, you know, you spend like 1/3 of your life on it. It's probably the thing you use the most of all the things you own.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Metcarfre » 16 Aug 2013, 08:17

There's a quote that goes something like, "You spend 90% of your life with either a bed or shoes between you and the ground; spend accordingly."
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Avistew » 16 Aug 2013, 19:49

My pseudonym is Ix wrote:The main bit of advice consistent through most 'experts' is the idea that, if you can't go to sleep, don't. Get up, read for half an hour or whatever (I know of one woman who used to make Victoria sponge cakes at 2 o clock every morning because of a somewhat odd sleep cycle), do something that means you aren't struggling and failing to fall asleep, otherwise the idea of sleep being a battle will just pervade.


I'm aware of that, but it mostly doesn't apply to me. Unless I went to bed not tired (like any time I've tried forcing myself to go to bed before mignight, even) the time I spend awake in bed waiting to fall asleep isn't time I am completely alert. I can't fall asleep, but I'm also way too sluggish to have the energy to get out of bed, let alone do something.
On the few occasions I've managed to make myself get out of bed, I was then up for the day, despite getting no sleep at all. After being out of bed and doing something, anything, I was just unable to go back to bed until the next night.

As for getting the room cold, in Reno it's overheated and that does make it hard to sleep, but if I want the room to get colder I need to turn on the AC, and I absolutely cannot fall asleep with the sound of a fan/computer/fridge or whatever if I can hear it at all. So I actually get more sleep with no AC than with it.
In California, the AC makes no noise, and Sean keeps the temperature at 64-68 Fahrenheit, which causes me to wrap myself in three or more blankets to feel anything but freezing. It probably adds to the "no way I'm getting out of bed and doing something" aspect to it, as I can't muster the strength to get out of bed in the cold for the amount of time it would take to grab my robe.

Definitely have a good mattress, so I can't imagine that would be it. I have slept on bad mattresses too, and I was in pain when I woke up, but I didn't sleep any less.
As for going to bed before midnight, the times I tried that are the times it took me over 3 hours to fall asleep. Midnight is way too early. If I had to pick an hour that I would consider ideal to go to bed, I would say 6am. But 6am is also when Sean needs to get up for work, and if I go to bed at 6, I miss the whole part of the day where stores are open, washing machines are allowed to be used and so on, so it's just not practical.

Plus when I tried that thing when you go to bed whenever you feel like and get up whenever you feel like, there was no pattern to it at all. Any hour out of the 24 hours in a day was just as likely as any other to be the time I went to bed, or the time I got up. I would be up for 30 hours then in bed for 4, or up for 8 then in bed for 20. There was really no rule, not even a constant proportion of awake vs asleep.

I'll definitely have a lot to discuss with the sleep specialist when I find one and am covered to see one.

So far I tend to stay up longer than I would want because Sean, despite getting up at 6, doesn't go to bed until 2. I've tried going to bed before him but I can never fall asleep, I always feel way too terrible (plus he's extremely noisy so even if I otherwise could fall asleep that would prevent it). I've asked him to go to bed earlier but he hates the idea as he feels it's wasting the only hours he has to himself (as in, hours off work, not hours away from me).

It doesn't help that I wake up super easily. Any noise outside (or inside) wakes me up, and then I usually take half an hour to fall back to sleep.

Last night, aside from a couple of times where I slept 20 minutes in a row, my longest stretch of uninterrupted sleep was 8 minutes. That can't be good for you.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby nicholasmc1 » 16 Aug 2013, 21:18

My trouble with sleep changed from struggling to fall asleep as a child to now struggling to stay asleep as an adult, I find myself waking up 10+ times through the night either from nightmares or physical discomfort. As a result I'm rarely properly rested even after 10 hours of "sleep".
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Metcarfre » 16 Aug 2013, 21:36

If you've tried everything then seek medical attention or counselling, that's all there is.

FWIW, I honestly don't believe anyone who says "I can't fall asleep before 2 AM" or whatever. No, you spent your youth playing video games to all hours of the night and have no idea what a natural sleep cycle is. We are evolutionarily adapted to be a diurnal species; we should be sleeping at night.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby 2stepz » 16 Aug 2013, 21:54

Metcarfre wrote:FWIW, I honestly don't believe anyone who says "I can't fall asleep before 2 AM" or whatever. No, you spent your youth playing video games to all hours of the night and have no idea what a natural sleep cycle is. We are evolutionarily adapted to be a diurnal species; we should be sleeping at night.


I can tell you that's bullshit. In my youth, I was in bed by 9 (through HS and into college). Even in my mid-late 20s I rarely saw midnight. Now... I'm lucky to be asleep before dawn. Granted, my heath is broken right now... but I don't know whether that's the cause or effect of the broken sleep cycle.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Duckay » 16 Aug 2013, 21:58

Metcarfre wrote:FWIW, I honestly don't believe anyone who says "I can't fall asleep before 2 AM" or whatever. No, you spent your youth playing video games to all hours of the night and have no idea what a natural sleep cycle is. We are evolutionarily adapted to be a diurnal species; we should be sleeping at night.


What's your opinion on people who routinely work nights, then? I know what a natural sleep cycle is but it simply is not practical in some fields.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Metcarfre » 17 Aug 2013, 06:16

Obviously that's a different case. It's probably sub-optimal but sustainable. I don't know, I'm no doctor.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 17 Aug 2013, 11:40

From some brief research I did into the topic a while ago, the optimal scenario with regards to feeling good is to be hitting REM at the same point as your natural point of lowest metabolic rate. For most people, that's around 2am or a bit later. Since it generally takes at least an hour and a half to reach a REM state, going to bed after midnight is generally not a great plan.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Elomin Sha » 17 Aug 2013, 12:04

When you go to sleep the flaming clown spiders are watching.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby My pseudonym is Ix » 17 Aug 2013, 12:05

...and we are now all reminded on which forums we are having this discussion.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby AlexanderDitto » 17 Aug 2013, 14:58

Duckay wrote:
Metcarfre wrote:FWIW, I honestly don't believe anyone who says "I can't fall asleep before 2 AM" or whatever. No, you spent your youth playing video games to all hours of the night and have no idea what a natural sleep cycle is. We are evolutionarily adapted to be a diurnal species; we should be sleeping at night.


What's your opinion on people who routinely work nights, then? I know what a natural sleep cycle is but it simply is not practical in some fields.


People who work night shifts for long periods of time tend to suffer from health problems for various reasons; lack of sunlight, exposure to artificial light for long periods of time, poor eating habits, and bad sleep patterns.

I agree with Met. Unless you have a serious disease or neurological disorder (which I'm sure some people do, though I'd venture to guess it's fairly rare), I suspect a vast majority of people who suffer from insomnia are 1. not physically exhausting themselves during the day (so work out more), 2. don't have an appropriate environment for sleeping (so arrange one; earplugs, a sleeping mask or curtains, a good bed, fans/AC, etc), and 3. haven't established good sleeping habits by going to bed before midnight at the same time and waking up at the same time every day, and 4. have unresolved mental stressors that they may need to work out with a therapist.

If your "ideal time" to go to bed is 6 AM, your internal clock is really messed up. And if you wake up during the middle of the night, it's because your body's not shutting down properly, something that I think can be fixed with strenuous exercise, meditation, etc.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Duckay » 17 Aug 2013, 16:49

It's not the healthiest thing to do, that is very true. However, night shifts are a fact of life for some people and it's not because they brought it upon themselves by playing video games all night. And it isn't always practical to tell them to stop doing it.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Metcarfre » 17 Aug 2013, 19:10

I don't think that was the implication we were making at all.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Duckay » 17 Aug 2013, 19:27

I only brought up night work in the first place in response to this.

Metcarfre wrote:FWIW, I honestly don't believe anyone who says "I can't fall asleep before 2 AM" or whatever. No, you spent your youth playing video games to all hours of the night and have no idea what a natural sleep cycle is.


Perhaps I misunderstood, but I interpreted that to mean that you were blaming poor sleep schedules on people bringing it on themselves by playing video games all night and similar things. I mentioned night work because someone who routinely works nights or strange hours is going to have a similarly skewed sleep schedule but I find it difficult to "blame" them for it.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby AlexanderDitto » 17 Aug 2013, 20:19

Duckay wrote:I only brought up night work in the first place in response to this.

Metcarfre wrote:FWIW, I honestly don't believe anyone who says "I can't fall asleep before 2 AM" or whatever. No, you spent your youth playing video games to all hours of the night and have no idea what a natural sleep cycle is.


Perhaps I misunderstood, but I interpreted that to mean that you were blaming poor sleep schedules on people bringing it on themselves by playing video games all night and similar things. I mentioned night work because someone who routinely works nights or strange hours is going to have a similarly skewed sleep schedule but I find it difficult to "blame" them for it.


Wait, what? Is anybody in this thread working a night shift? Or has anybody in this thread said anything about previously working a night shift? I don't think they have. I just checked and I still don't see it but maybe I overlooked something?

Obviously if you have to work a night shift, your sleep schedule is going to be different from most of the world. And yes, long-term, it can give you health problems. It sucks. I'm not blaming people who work night shifts for... not sleeping at night? Or for having health problems? Or for having trouble sleeping during the day? It's a completely different conversation. This thread is about people who have trouble sleeping at night. And Met was pointing out that if your bed time is 1 or 2 AM, that can cause sleep problems. Also I'm pretty sure people who work night shift don't go to bed at 2 or 3 AM?

There are effective ways to transition from night-shift to day-shift. And if you quit a night shift for good, a few months should be all it takes to get back to a normal sleep schedule. So...
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Duckay » 17 Aug 2013, 20:53

Granted, this is me projecting somewhat. I have a lot of people in my personal life nagging me for "not sleeping properly" stating similar things to Metcarfre's post. I work erratic hours including overnights, days and evening shifts so this well-meaning advice like "don't stay up late" and "wake up at the same time each day" (or "working nights is bad for you") is unhelpful.

That's what I was getting at when I asked what his advice was for people who work nights, but either I was unclear about the connection or, as you say, my sleep problems and Avistew's sleep problems are too different to discuss in the same place.
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Re: The Sleep Thread

Postby Metcarfre » 17 Aug 2013, 22:06

Nah if you work nights I aint got no beef bro
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