Penny Arcade and 'The Mike Problem'

[JayBlanc]

He's apologising for the whole controversy... He's not apologising for saying that they shouldn't have pulled the merchandising, which was the one positive action they made, because he says the same exact thing in his clarification.

"Had we left it alone, the ongoing tension about the whole thing might have subsided but Robert made the call to pull the shirts."

That doesn't speak to me of someone who understands the difference between righting your wrongs, and keeping your head down till people forget that you did something wrong.

[JackSlack]

I admit, I'm freaking torn. Because his newspost is such a mix of good and bad.

For example,

There have been a lot of assumptions about what I meant or thought at the panel last Monday.

No! Wrong! Saying this implies the debt of fault on those who are upset. You could have instead said, "So I caused another shitstorm. Let's talk about it." You could even have said, if you felt this, "So, I fucked up again." Or even, if you really felt yourself blameless, gone with, "So, let's talk about what I said at PAX. You all know what I mean. Let's talk about Dickwolves." No blame, no statement of responsibility, implied or otherwise.

So I had to think really hard about it and the only time I could remember really thinking he made a mistake was when he told us we had to pull the Dickwolves merch. I didn’t really get a chance to elaborate on why that was though, and unfortunately by not doing so it created a bit of a firestorm on the Internet.

Again! Argh! Everything about this screams, "I don't think I fucked up," or "It's not my fault! Robert shoulda let me continue!" Again, it smacks of shirking blame.

So let me start by saying I like the Dickwolves strip. I think it’s a strong comic and I still think the joke is funny. Would we make that strip today? Knowing what we know now and seeing how it hurt people, no. We wouldn’t

There ya go! See? That's how it's done. Acknowledge hurt. It's even better than that: He acknowledges that the strip itself caused it. He's not saying people hurt themselves over it or anything. He's acknowledging that what they did hurt people. Good stuff.

I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. I don’t think any of those things were good ideas. If we had just stopped with the strip and moved on, the Dickwolf never would have become what it is today. Which is a joke at the expense of rape victims or a symbol of the dismissal of people who have suffered a sexual assault.

All good. He acknowledges a lot of this, and he's not wrong that how we receive the Dickwolves strip has changed due to the wider cultural surroundings of the discussion it spawned. That's all right stuff, and it's good to hear him say it.

Oddly enough, the first comic by itself is exactly the opposite of what this whole thing has turned into.

But then he says that. What the fuck? How does that even work?

It's just infuriating.

However, and so help me here...

I genuinely believe he does want to improve. I just wish he wanted to improve more, and enough so that he was prepared to put time and effort into it. I don't think all this is a feint, in other words. I think he's genuinely sorry that he hurt people. That comes across to me. But he hasn't internalised his fault in a lot of it, and I also don't think he realises what a deal it is.

In the end, I've decided to go back to PAX. I can only hope I won't regret that decision.

[JayBlanc]

Rock Paper Shotgun have announced they will not be attending or offering coverage of any future PAX events, and give an article detailing a cross section of opinions on future attendance of PAX across the industry.

[JackSlack]

Rock Paper Shotgun have announced they will not be attending or offering coverage of any future PAX events, and give an article detailing a cross section of opinions on future attendance of PAX across the industry.

... The fact that my reaction to their decision is positive is making me rethink my own.

[Amake]

Most of the thread may have moved on since about five pages, but I really want to share my two cents on Mr Mike Krahulik if you'll bear with me.

What sticks in my mind is Mike's apology from June where he acknowledges he's ignorant about these problems people have and promises to keep his mouth shut about things he doesn't understand. He doesn't want to learn anything about these things he doesn't understand and better himself and move on, he realizes he's hurt people and his idea of stopping that from happening is not to be more careful and respectful and conscious of other people but to talk less.

Of course, then he didn't do that but continued to be a very public figure, a parent, a role model and as the brilliant David Willis [url)http://itswalky.tumblr.com/post/60364597848/so-im-going-to-go-out-on-a-limb-and-guess-youre-not-a]put it[/url] half of "those embarrassing guys in charge of webcomics, kind of like your racist grandpa, if your racist grandpa ruled the world and everyone else judged you by him."

Now, I have hope that he will learn even if he says he doesn't want to. It sounds to me more like he's being contrary because he doesn't like being pushed around, but will make an effort once he has time to think it through for himself. That hope keeps me tolerating PA, but I'm not for one second going to defend them to someone who think they've spent their last chance. It's my privilege as an optimist and a relatively untraumatized straight white cis man to be entertained by them without fear and with only mild discomfort; to acknowledge that they have problems without it ruining my day. Not everyone has that option, at least not yet.

[Lyinginbedmon]

Certainly if it were possible not to learn by simply not trying to I would be doing a lot worse in my academics.

[Fantazme]

I think it's painfully obvious Mike makes very little to no effort to work on being more sensitive and trying to improve himself. The so-called apologies seem more and more "Let's try not to lose fans" then having any actual meaning behind it.

[Graham]

We mentioned it briefly on our Twitter, but since Max from Cards Against Humanity made his post recently, I'll say it again for the record (since he and we came to similar conclusions):

We will continue going to PAX, because PAX is an amazing, welcoming convention (the most inclusive we've ever attended) with a wonderful community. PAX is bigger than any single person or company, whoever that may be, and we will continue every year to fight to make PAX better and safer than it already is.

To paraphrase Erika Moen, who said it better than I: This is not a black-and-white issue for us, I understand that it might be for some of you, and that's fine, but we see a very grey issue and we're not going to get involved in an online shouting match with either "side".

------

Feel free to keep discussing (keep it respectful) but since the talk of PAX boycotts came up again, I wanted to get this out there.
Oh, except we won't be at EAST because James is getting married that weekend. In his defence, he tried to avoid that, but EAST fell on an odd weekend this year.

[aeric90]

Oh, except we won't be at EAST...

All the sadness!! For myself... not for James.

[JayBlanc]

Feel free to keep discussing (keep it respectful) but since the talk of PAX boycotts came up again, I wanted to get this out there.

I'm not sure at all that there's people seriously organising PAX boycotts. What's happening is lots of people coming to their own decision not to go to PAX/remove PA from their bookmarks/Shun Mike, and usually very explicitly saying it only applies to them and they respect people who decide to go to PAX/Keep reading PA/Not Shun Mike... However, it might be having a domino effect of convincing others after they read the reasons stated. I'm not sure if there's a word for that. Perhaps 'Meidung', except without the religious overtones and central authority?

[mariomario42]

Feel free to keep discussing (keep it respectful) but since the talk of PAX boycotts came up again, I wanted to get this out there.

I'm not sure at all that there's people seriously organising PAX boycotts. What's happening is lots of people coming to their own decision not to go to PAX/remove PA from their bookmarks/Shun Mike, and usually very explicitly saying it only applies to them and they respect people who decide to go to PAX/Keep reading PA/Not Shun Mike... However, it might be having a domino effect of convincing others after they read the reasons stated. I'm not sure if there's a word for that. Perhaps 'Meidung', except without the religious overtones and central authority?

I'd call that a personal boycott + a blog. It's like being vegan.

Although I would definitely say a lot of people jumped on the band wagon for this.

Fun way of summing up how I see this:

[Kapol]

I'm not sure at all that there's people seriously organising PAX boycotts.

For an example of someone doing just that, look at the very first post in this thread. The article that's titled "Quit fucking going to PAX already, what is wrong with you" pisses me off not only because of it's obviously aggressive headline, which feels more like bait than anything to me, but more on the fact that it is making people feel bad for wanting/deciding to go to PAX.

Here's the thing, I understand people deciding they don't want to go for their own reasons. I feel like that has the unintended side-effect of making people who do go (and are sensitive to this issue) feel bad for going. The reason for not going basically boils down to 'I don't want to support the dickwolves guy.' Which is fine. But it does make some others feel like, in doing so, they're specifically helping that person. Instead of going for the things like LRR, the CaH event, and things like that. I know that one person on this very forum was made to feel bad for even going to the PAX where this came up again (not even for deciding to go after, but for being at that one).

But, at the same time, I don't blame the people who decide not to go. It's an unintended side-effect for many at best, and a side-goal that they at least keep to themselves at worst. It's the people who actively try to make out those who do go as bad people who piss me off. That article is good at what it does. It makes me feel bad for wanting to go. But I know the reasons that I want to go are to support a bunch of things that I like, see people I want to meet in person, and generally try to make PAX a better overall place by following Wheaton's Law. The fact that there's articles that intend to make me feel bad for doing so causes me to be more annoyed than anything.

[Duckay]

I don't know what led up to the person you're talking about being made to feel bad, so I won't go into that. There is, however, one thing I want to add.

I think you're underselling some of the reasons people may not want to go to PAX. Yes, there are a large percentage of people saying they don't want to go because they don't want to financially support "the dickwolves guy" (and I want to thank this thread for teaching my autocorrect the word "dickwolves"). There are some people like that in this thread, even.

However, there are also other people who don't want to go to events like PAX after blowups like these because they feel uncomfortable or unsafe about it (for example, because they are worried about their safety in the company of fans wearing dickwolves shirts, or because they feel unwelcome because of their gender identity).

Personally, that's why I think the best move in the whole thing was Jerry's post about PAX being an inclusive environment, but I would not blame someone who still felt uncomfortable.

[Kapol]

*snip*

That's fair, and I should have mentioned that. I suppose I should have directed my reason at the people not going for the reason I mentioned. I think both reasons are fair, as mentioned in my other post. And both reasons do make me feel bad for going. But for the one you mentioned, I feel bad because I wish there didn't have to be that feeling of being uncomfortable or unsafe. It's sad that people are kept from things they would enjoy because of creeps. That uncomfortableness or feeling unsafe are not feelings that one can really 'talk away.' I can't blame anyone for feeling that way given all the things that have happened.

Sorry if I came off as insensitive to people who feel that way.

[Digital Dolphin]

I have a pretty poor opinion of PAX these days. Heck, if you look at the PAX thread from before PAX Prime, I even stated there that I didn't like it.

I don't actually know if PAX is fixable. They're created such an insular Old Boy's Club with the way they handle the availability of their tickets, and the Enforcer community is even worse. Getting new ideas and ways of thinking into situations like these is almost impossible. And I'm not convinced that gamer culture itself wants to change.

Penny Arcade didn't create the problem, they're a symptom of it. But they've also become a facilitator to the negative gaming culture that is feeding off of their event.

So what's to be done? Boycott? Try to fight it from the inside? Create a competing event that fights to be an inclusive and safe space, and doesn't put up with the bullshit? Bitch about it on our blogs and hope the problem goes away?

I think all we can really do is work to change ourselves, and encourage those in our circles to do the same. The negative gamer culture and rape culture we struggle against exists because we as a (much larger) community let it exist.

So while I'm not going to attend PAX for the forseeable future, I choose to do so because I find it boring and not relevant to my interests, and don't expect anyone else to base their decision on mine. I'm not boycotting, I'm just choosing to spend my money on events that entertain me. (I likely WILL be involved in coordinating various safe space friendly events during PAX though, even if I will be at DragonCon during them).

[Graham]

They're created such an insular Old Boy's Club with the way they handle the availability of their tickets, and the Enforcer community is even worse.

That sounds like conspiracy theory-level stuff dude. That's not true.

They have open calls for new Enforcers every PAX, and they added another day of the show so more people could come. They want it to be as open as possible, I don't know what you're saying.

[Digital Dolphin]

They have open calls for new Enforcers every PAX, and they added another day of the show so more people could come. They want it to be as open as possible, I don't know what you're saying.

The open calls for enforcers goes against info I had from enforcers, so I don't really know what to say. Last I heard enforcer recruitment was closed until PAX Australia came about, and at that point it was open for people who could help in Australia. But none of this is really my point. The Enforcer community itself is the problem.

Every person I know who has become an enforcer has begun to shun their non enforcer friends (unless they're otherwise important at PAX). Some much worse so than others, but all of them do it, and it generally gets worse over time. I've spoken to a number of enforcers about it and everyone agrees it's a big problem, but nobody seems to notice that they are doing it. It's always just this thing, that *other* enforcers do. I even brought it up to a couple random enforcers I didn't know while I was at PAX a couple years ago, and got pretty much the same answer.

So I talked to an Enforcer I knew about why he thought it was a problem. And his response was that the Enforcer community was over 1500 people, and how could he possibly have time for other friends.

This is also why I didn't sign up to be an enforcer myself. Early on in my PAX experience, I was very close to it.

[JackSlack]

To be fair, Digital Dolphin, that's the kind of stuff that's very hard to verify. It does illustrate a potential pitfall of using a volunteer con staff, however.

However, I am intrigued by your discussion of creating safe space events for PAX, and curious to know if I could help do the same for PAX Aus.

[Metcarfre]

That's the kind of stuff any subgroup identifiably different within a larger group will suffer from. It's human nature, not some dastardly scheme.

[Master Gunner]

Human nature can prove problematic at times, though from what I've heard, the Enforcers are still by and large good people.

[Lord Hosk]

They're created such an insular Old Boy's Club with the way they handle the availability of their tickets, and the Enforcer community is even worse.

PAX has been open in saying that they prefer to have Enforcers who were there before do it again because experience is great and there are a lot of people who repeat and repeat, however I spoke to half a dozen enforcers who were doing their first time enforcing at PAX prime this year.

I know the term Old Boys club is a colloquialism but I feel its important to point out that there are a TON of female enforcers, I dont know the ratio but its not like seeing a woman in a blue(or red) shirt is at all uncommon.

Every person I know who has become an enforcer has begun to shun their non enforcer friends (unless they're otherwise important at PAX). Some much worse so than others, but all of them do it, and it generally gets worse over time. I've spoken to a number of enforcers about it and everyone agrees it's a big problem, but nobody seems to notice that they are doing it. It's always just this thing, that *other* enforcers do. I even brought it up to a couple random enforcers I didn't know while I was at PAX a couple years ago, and got pretty much the same answer.

So I talked to an Enforcer I knew about why he thought it was a problem. And his response was that the Enforcer community was over 1500 people, and how could he possibly have time for other friends.

I dont think that has anything to do with PAX I think that is just Human nature, everyone seeks out groups, cliques, tribes, clans, whatever you want to call them.

a lot of the enforcers have been doing it for years, at both Prime and East, they see the same people over and over again, and they have a fun weekend with them. So when they see their friends again who they haven't seen for 6 or 12 months they have another whirl wind weekend of fun. If you go to your high schools home coming game, who do you sit with? the guy who graduated three years after you or the girl you hung out with all the time and went to parties with?

Or to keep it at PAX, AlexanderDitto has been going to PAX east for years. He spends a lot of his time with the Pokemon league people each year, Why? Because he knows them.

Maybe some of the enforcers who are here on this very forum could comment. I know Fugi and Pika both are and I think there are others.

Lastly, The availability of tickets is just a matter of simple supply and demand, they can only have so many people at PAX each day for fire and safety issues, WAY more people than that want to attend PAX each day. When tickets go on sale they sell fast because there is more demand than supply. East has more space, so it sells out slower also Scalping is legal in Washington so Pax attendees have to contend with Scalpers as well as other people who want to go.

[CommanderKeen]

Throwing it out there- I applied this year to be an Enforcer for Prime- as far as I know I was turned down because to be enforcer you have to be legally able to work in in the states, unless you're a group of specific people who were enforcing from before that was a thing they did. (Enforcers do get a small amount of pay, hence the requirement)

As for old boys clubs- ANY volunteer organization gets that way when there is limited opportunities to volunteer. Scouting*, for instance is crazy bad for it but when you have groups of people who grow up together, of COURSE they've made close ties with those people. It's both a positive and negative thing. You develop a shorthand and typically someone can introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm a Rover Scout from Australia" and I know they're good people. You know that they share a common experience, and references to draw on for conversation fodder and the like. I'm also acutely aware that I have few non-scouting, or weren't-in-scouts-at-some-point-in-time friends and have fewer non-scouting friends now than I did a few years ago. But that happens. This isn't bad and you're not allowed to get mad or sad that people are moving on to different things. People change and adapt to circumstances.

Short answer- People like to belong. And the Enforcers through many years have created a place to belong that is respected in the community they love.

*Yes, I'm a Scout. Yes, I have a neckerchief and can tie knots. No, I'm not going to kick you out because you aren't white, christian, male and straight- because that's just the organization in the states- 90 percent of the world scouting organizations are co-ed.

[JackSlack]

A relevant sidenote: PAX Aus, and thus probably all the PAXi, have released an updated and expanded safety and security policy that includes harassment. Kudos. This genuinely is a massive step in the right direction.

I still have some quibbles, but it's a marked improvement over 'The Rules of PAX'.

Edit: I note that under the new guidelines, carrying out an affair at PAX is no longer cause for expulsion from the event. (Yes, I'm joking. But it is true that 'no cheating' is now neatly clarified. )

[Digital Dolphin]

Just to clarify, I did not intend to make it sound like I believe most enforcers to be men. The "Old boys club" reference was in relation to their disinterest in maintaining active friendships with people outside of the enforcer community once they become enforcers.

I also don't want to get into an argument about PAX's location, but the fact is that if they want to solve their ticket problem, the easiest and best way to do it is to move. There are tons of locations that will suit their needs better. Vancouver and Las Vegas are both excellent choices. Anything else is not going to help in any significant way. But this is REALLY off topic.

And yeah, of course people like to belong. And yes obviously PAX (and 99% of all events ever) re-use their volunteers (although PAX Enforcers are not volunteers) because they already know most of what they need to, and less training is required. But something specific to PAX seems to result in creating this negative insular community.

Actually, the Enforcer problem is a really large concern to me. CommanderKeen and I have had several long discussions on ways to try to prevent it from becoming as serious or wide spread, in projects we're both involved in.

I think in part the problem is related to the gaming culture around PAX. Gamers seem a lot more likely to be dicks, or apathetic to dickish behavior. Much like cosplayers are more prone to gossip and drama. I think it's the whole "pwn" mentality and one-ups-manship. It becomes so common that nobody blinks an eye at inappropriate comments are remarks. Eventually we end up with things like the Dickwolves situation, which may have seemed completely fine in the minds of Penny Arcade, but to people less immersed in gamer culture it was unacceptable.

@JackSlack: We don't know what will be done yet, but we'll likely be fundraising to run a safe space party (if this is possible, due to everything being booked WELL in advance already), or something along those lines. Probably giving out buttons, and standing outside the con in crossplay (as well as inside at times). The point is to raise awareness and try to find positive ways of doing it, which will be less likely to cause a negative knee jerk reaction from those with personal issues against LGBTQ people. If anyone's interested in helping out at PAX Prime, I would be happy to get you in touch with the rest of the group

[JackSlack]

I think in part the problem is related to the gaming culture around PAX. Gamers seem a lot more likely to be dicks, or apathetic to dickish behavior.

It's not just dickishness, indeed, that's not the real concern.

My issue is with things like the recent misogyny-filled explosion over Carolyn Petit's review of Grand Theft Auto V. It's just the latest example of a nasty strain of anti-critical backlash that's infected gaming. I don't think it's organised in any real fashion, it's an ad-hoc movement of people trying very hard to stop gaming from becoming any more egalitarian.

And well, in many ways the Dickwolves Debacle was a noteworthy example of that early on. There was a comic. It was criticised for the way it handled the subject of rape. Their response was to lash out, ridicule the critics, and then sell fucking merchandise for the show.

Side note: No, the trans-tweets aren't a part of that. Mike's comments were offensive, his apology was ham-fisted, all the very valid criticisms of that have been made. But it wasn't an attempt to stifle the conversation.

This is in many ways, however, the biggest problem. Mike's a role-model whether he likes it or not. He can only choose what KIND of role-model he'll be, and to whom.

In a way, I kind of pity him: He's managed to work himself into being a kind of perfect symbol for this debate. PAX has developed a (mostly) worthy reputation as a venue for conversations advancing the critical dialogue, and trying to be open and inclusive. As part of Penny Arcade, Mike's championed that. But he's also the most visible figurehead of Penny Arcade, and the Dickwolves debacle, along with his other comments, make him an inspiring figure for those who want to oppose those values too.

I have no idea if this post is anything more than rambling. I'm struggling to express my thoughts here. :/