Gov't Shutdown

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Lord Hosk
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Lord Hosk » 09 Oct 2013, 08:49

Well the official title is The Affordable Care Act not "Obama-care", I think that name will go away, the republicans leading up to the elections were using the term "Obama-Care" so they could link the President to the negative emotions Fox news was creating. Although let me tell you the insurance industry is in love with the current law, the only thing they dont like is the elimination of the "per-existing condition" clause but they are writing most of these individual health care plans to just not cover expensive stuff. In Michigan the cheapest 4 plans dont provide coverage for most forms of cancer, or auto immune disorders, they only cover traumatic injury.

But which speaking as someone who lives in a state with mandatory auto insurance and some of the highest auto insurance rates in the country I can tell you that requiring the purchase of a product from a for profit corporation will never reduce the price, it only increases profits and does not help the consumer. We pay $37 less for "partial" coverage/no-fault insurance in Michigan compared to what we paid for Full coverage in Alaska.

I am all for Universal health care, and the reduction of costs that everyone paying for and benefiting from true health care will be. But the current law doesnt do that.

The reason a Tylenol in a US hospital costs $400 isnt because you have to pay for all the uninsured people to get free Tylenol its because to give you that Tylenol, you have to give a kickback to the doctor, a kickback to the pharmacist, a kickback to the retail sales rep, profit to the retail company, a kick back to the wholesale sales rep, profit to the wholesaler, a kickback to the manufacturer sales rep, and a profit to the manufacturer, in addition to part of that pills cost going to pay for the nurse, Nursing Assistant, the janitor, the housekeeper, the gardener...and of course, most hospitals in this country are for profit corporations themselves, and because some people are uninsured.


(sidebar)
to oversimplify a situation that recently happened in Michigan over universal auto insurance.
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Insurance companies were complaining that Michigan has a law of "no cap on medical pay outs" which means that if you are in a car accident, and you require a billion dollars in treatment and care they have to pay that, for life. The insurers wanted it to be set to what some states have which is a million dollar maximum so if you require a billion dollars of care, once you reach that million dollar cap its all on you, so you can either declare bankruptcy or die, your choice. The insurance companies said that these "large pay out cases" were destroying their company and they were finding it very hard to operate in Michigan because of those extreme injury cases. Our state congress said "we will put a one million dollar cap on pay outs, but we will also remove the law that everyone must purchase auto insurance to register a car" and the insurance companies said "no thanks, keep it the way it is we will manage"

Which tells you that even with the prospect of paying millions of dollars because of one accident, it is still more profitable to force everyone to pay.
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AdmiralMemo
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby AdmiralMemo » 09 Oct 2013, 10:47

Lord Hosk wrote:I am all for Universal health care, and the reduction of costs that everyone paying for and benefiting from true health care will be. But the current law doesn't do that.
THIS! THIS! SO MUCH THIS!

This is why I object to it. I also believe that this is why some (definitely not all and probably not most) Republicans are against it.
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AlexanderDitto
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby AlexanderDitto » 09 Oct 2013, 11:20

AdmiralMemo wrote:
Lord Hosk wrote:I am all for Universal health care, and the reduction of costs that everyone paying for and benefiting from true health care will be. But the current law doesn't do that.
THIS! THIS! SO MUCH THIS!

This is why I object to it. I also believe that this is why some (definitely not all and probably not most) Republicans are against it.


That's ridiculous. If that were the case, you'd see those Republicans supporting Single Payer. But that will never happen. No republican candidate has ever suggested anything like single payer. In fact, the healthcare plan in the ACA was the Republican plan. It was formulated by the Heritage Foundation. It's profoundly conservative plan: make everyone get insurance, and make them buy it from private industry.

It doesn't fix the problems with rising healthcare costs. It just makes everyone buy insurance and fosters "competition" among insurance companies. It's super capitalist.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby JackSlack » 09 Oct 2013, 11:48

The mandatory requirement isn't designed to lower costs. It's a necessary evil required in order to accommodate eliminating "prior illness" conditions.
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Lord Hosk
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Lord Hosk » 09 Oct 2013, 14:54

AlexanderDitto wrote:
It doesn't fix the problems with rising healthcare costs. It just makes everyone buy insurance and fosters "competition" among insurance companies. It's super capitalist.


I agree with the first two points but not that it fosters competition. Although I see you put that in quotes.

It fosters competition in the same way that Gas stations are in competition with one another. With their exact same prices for the same product that fluctuate at the exact same time.

There are definably some benefits to the law, however it will in no way make "health care affordable" unless the entire health care industry starts to care about sick people.


But I seem to have gone off on a derailing tangent.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby AdmiralMemo » 09 Oct 2013, 15:25

Lord Hosk wrote:It fosters competition in the same way that Gas stations are in competition with one another. With their exact same prices for the same product that fluctuate at the exact same time.
I disagree with that, since gas stations, at least in this area, have different prices from each other. In a 10-mile stretch along Belair Road, I've seen differences of up to 20 cents, which is about a 5% difference on the total price.
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Metcarfre
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Metcarfre » 09 Oct 2013, 21:17

Up here they definitely collude as has been proven to be the case in Quebec a couple years ago.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby JackSlack » 09 Oct 2013, 21:34

OK, let's go through the ObamaCare stuff.

1. No, the mandatory requirement is (mostly) not designed to affect health care rates. It's designed to eliminate an insurance company's ability to discriminate based on prior health conditions. After all, if you had 'everyone must be accepted by an insurance company' on the table without 'everyone must buy insurance', you'd only ever buy insurance when you needed it, and the insurers wouldn't be viable.

2. Now, that said, it seems likely that it will prevent the rise of costs in at least the near term by adding a lot of young, healthy people to an insurance company's pool of revenue. However, it does seek to lower healthcare costs overall. There are a few ways this works, mostly by giving the government a few extra sticks to hit hospitals, insurers and other healthcare companies with in the future.

In other news, Democrats have had a reduction in approval rating, down 4% from 47 to 43%. Republicans dropped 10% to 28%. Holy crap. That's beyond basement level. That's somewhere in the molten crust.

Edit: Miiiiiight wanna stay away from chicken for a while, US folks.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Smeghead » 09 Oct 2013, 23:20

I've never understood the US medical system so I can't really say if it is good or bad (although from what people keep telling me; its a bit on the bad side). that and I can't say that I understand our (almost) free healthcare system either, mostly because I've so far managed not to require their services for anything major since I turned 18. So I'm not the right person to say which system is better.
But I did come across this and this by John Green which seems to explain some things (in the usual way he explains things).

On a less serious note; I suggested 2 ways to solve the crisis (at least for now).

1) Congress should not be paid for the duration of the shutdown. Why should the people who aren't doing their job get paid when others get sent home without pay?

2) Take inspiration from how they elect popes and lock the members of congress into the building and don't let them out until they've come to an agreement...or die. either or...
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby JayBlanc » 09 Oct 2013, 23:49

I've had experience with the US health care system as a foreigner who got ill. Luckily I had good travel insurance that got me into an ER Hospital. And that's when it got weird.

I had really good health care, in what appeared to be a up to date hospital, recently built, with an emergency department that had isolation wards designed with per room crash kits, negative pressure et al...

And it was completely empty other than the doctors and me. No cars in the parking lots. No lights on anywhere else than the ER reception. It was a 'in network' hospital, to take 'pre-approved emergency'[1] referrals and out patients from the insurance companies who paid for it. It was built on the off ramp of a free-way, so they weren't getting walk ins, and apparently ambulances wouldn't stop there.

Who knows how much money, both public and private, being poured into a hospital that barely anyone uses. While there are hospitals that are over-crowded, with people waiting all day to be seen.

[1] That was the other thing that blew me away, that I had to get my emergency treatment approved by someone over the phone.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Smeghead » 09 Oct 2013, 23:52

That sounds like a scenario from some kind of conspiracy/mystery story; being the only patient in a huge hospital. No one around to see what the staff might do....
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby AdmiralMemo » 10 Oct 2013, 02:45

Smeghead wrote:But I did come across this and this by John Green which seems to explain some things (in the usual way he explains things).
I was JUST about to post that first link, as I just watched it today. It's insightful.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby plummeting_sloth » 10 Oct 2013, 09:43

There are friends that I know that are stationed abroad with the State department. They were scheduled to come back at the end of the month. However, due to necessity of their work and how the department operates, they cannot leave their station until their replacement arrives from the states. Replacement that won't be coming until the shutdown ends, and then some due to the repurchasing of flights and rescheduling of moving. These friends are also offered a full housing allowance to support themselves abroad. That housing allotment ended and due to the strange rent cycles some areas have, they got caught full in the teeth with a rent payment when they never had one before. While they weren't being paid. Some of them having to work without pay in countries with a higher COL than the US. So, they are taking it out on their credit. So while they will get their allowance and back pay, they will not refunded the amount of interest they had to pay on their credit. Isn't democracy fun?
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Lord Hosk
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Lord Hosk » 10 Oct 2013, 10:15

Military moves have also been halted, some mid move.

There is a guy at my old unit who already shipped his car, three days before he was due to fly out, and is now without a car, living in a two bedroom "apartment" hotel room with his wife and four kids, he is supposed to report to his regular unit for regular work, but he has already turned in all his extra gear, shipped a bunch of his uniforms and has no way to get the 6 of them around other than buming rides off people.

Slight advantage over your friends in that they are on a military installation with a commissary, PX and MWR within a couple miles of the house, but its Alaska so family bike trip is kinda a cold slog in October.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Metcarfre » 10 Oct 2013, 13:37

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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby empath » 10 Oct 2013, 21:50

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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby plummeting_sloth » 11 Oct 2013, 06:44

Also, on my own front, last week I was talking with a rep at a chemical supply company who was kinda freaking out at all the people in my area that were having to call and cancel orders due to lack of funds or fund insecurity. Party of business, ladies and gentlemen
Last edited by plummeting_sloth on 11 Oct 2013, 08:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby empath » 11 Oct 2013, 08:15

And THERE is where it starts; the uncertainty creeps into the private sector, and pretty soon it's going to creep across national borders and start affecting USA's frequent trading partners. :|
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Lord Hosk » 11 Oct 2013, 08:24

Dont worry, Mech suits and mini nukes man.
Beware Bering Crystal Bears, Bearing Crystals. (Especially if the crystals they are bearing are, themselves, Bering Crystal Bears.) -Old, Stupid Proverb

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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby empath » 11 Oct 2013, 09:51

Wait...how do you know about our - um, pipe dream. Yeah, that's it - that's just a fanciful imagining of how we'd 'liberate' America from its oligarchic overlords...yeah, totally NOT a real thing. Image


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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Metcarfre » 11 Oct 2013, 10:36

If the US defaults it'll probably be much worse than the European debt crisis. The world economy will go back into recession for at least a few years.

Edit: actually, that's probably hyperbolic. The US actually has the assets and revenue to pay its debts.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby plummeting_sloth » 11 Oct 2013, 11:30

I do think that this may well lead to more efforts in finding an alternate reserve currency. What good are T-bonds of a country that seems quite eager to ram a hammer into it's own testicles
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Lord Hosk » 11 Oct 2013, 12:16

The only possible possitive turn that can come out of this is if people remember what happened in the next election cycle and vote for a non-republican Non democrat for the house because clearly those two groups are beyond help.

imagine if you will a united states congress where a coalition is REQUIRED to appoint a majority leader. Right from the start you have to work with others, BOOM, congressional mind blown.
Beware Bering Crystal Bears, Bearing Crystals. (Especially if the crystals they are bearing are, themselves, Bering Crystal Bears.) -Old, Stupid Proverb

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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Tycherin » 11 Oct 2013, 13:48

WHIGS! WHIGS AND TORIES! And the Green Party too, just for some color. Ooo, and maybe we could get some of the American Party (the "Know Nothing" version) in there too. Throw in whatever party Nader is calling himself nowadays and we'll be cooking with gas.
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Re: Gov't Shutdown

Postby Kapol » 11 Oct 2013, 13:59

So when does King Joffrey step out from beyond the curtains on all of this?

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