PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Duckay » 22 Dec 2013, 17:08

Lord Hosk wrote:I think we are getting off PAX, and back on "the mike problem" again.

Which is what I was pointing out on the last page, I understand that Mike is a huge part of Penny Arcade, and its the "Penny Arcade eXpo" but Mike is one person, Penny Arcade is 20 people, PAX is 300+ per event (I would give you a more specific number but the PA forums just closed down "for Christmas". Thats not going to cause problems...) so when people say "PAX IS A HATEFUL PLACE, SEE WHAT MIKE SAID ABOUT RAPE!" I think... OK, how does Mike making dumbass statements about rape and ignorant comments about Transgender people, mean that PAX is homophobic, Xenophobic, Antisemitic, Anti-(insert group)



Once again, I can't speak for everyone, but here's my interpretation of that.

Mike is only one small part of the PAX machine, but he is arguably the most well-known. This leads to two effects: one, people who felt like Mike's comments are dismissive of their experience come to associate these feelings with PAX because Mike is so heavily involved, and two, the "dumbass" comments turning into a bigger Internet drama mean that the people who felt negatively about Mike's comments are now worried that people who approved of the comments are going to attend PAX in greater numbers, and therefore that there will be a greater proportion of people who may make them feel threatened.

As for how that interacts with the Diversity Lounges, well, once again, I can only offer my own perspective, I can't speak for anyone else. Personally, something doesn't quite sit right with me about the diversity lounges (although I'd have to see it in practice to be sure), and other people may feel similarly to me. If those people already feel uncomfortable for above stated reasons, they may feel that this is an insufficient measure, or that it is the wrong measure under the circumstances.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby JackSlack » 22 Dec 2013, 17:09

Lord Hosk wrote:I think we are getting off PAX, and back on "the mike problem" again.

Which is what I was pointing out on the last page, I understand that Mike is a huge part of Penny Arcade, and its the "Penny Arcade eXpo" but Mike is one person, Penny Arcade is 20 people, PAX is 300+ per event (I would give you a more specific number but the PA forums just closed down "for Christmas". Thats not going to cause problems...) so when people say "PAX IS A HATEFUL PLACE, SEE WHAT MIKE SAID ABOUT RAPE!" I think... OK, how does Mike making dumbass statements about rape and ignorant comments about Transgender people, mean that PAX is homophobic, Xenophobic, Antisemitic, Anti-(insert group)


Because 'PA' in 'PAX'.

Yes, he's only one person. But he's either 50% or 33% (depending on whether or not you count Robert Khoo) of the show's namesake. He closes the show, and does a number of panels in between it. And because of his more active social media presence and (I suspect) because he more closely channels the attitudes of many of his fans than Jerry does, he's the most famous of the two/three of them.

Yes, PAX may be 300 odd people. But of them, Mike's name stands right out in front. What he says does and will reflect on PAX.

Todd Johnson put it beautifully:

Todd Johnson wrote:So why not just ignore him? Because he profits from a giant, thrice-yearly convention, the stated goal of which is to provide a space in which gamers can feel “safe”. Like they’re part of the community. What he has created, instead, is a space where people cheer raucously when he says he regrets stopping the sale of a t-shirt because rape survivors were offended by it. A space where people feel “safe” enough to pitch games based on rape at a panel. (Note: it’s great, of course, that the person heading the panel said that anybody pitching a rape-based game would be asked to leave. What kind of audience, though, even needs to have this said to them? Perhaps one that has been told, over and over again, by the men who arranged the entire event, that that sort of thing is not only acceptable, but hilarious?)
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby JustAName » 22 Dec 2013, 17:18

I think the other thing, is that a lot of people are commenting on how Mike's comments make minority groups feel. What I'm most worried about are how his comments make bigots feel. They feel reinforced and welcomed. And then they cheer him on, and he gets this feedback that SOMEBODY supports him, so they must be in the right. The reason I felt worried about attending PAX in the future was not because of Mike himself, but because someone might be aware of the Dickwolves or Trans* issues, think that Mike was right or even that he didn't take it far enough, and show up to PAX militantly trying to "take the feminazis down a peg". I don't know how realistic that fear is, but it's a real one that I have. That, to me, is why I need to see growth in Mike more than anything else.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby JackSlack » 22 Dec 2013, 17:27

@Fayili: Exactly. I think that's very much the greatest worry on a lot of people's minds, and we've seen some evidence that yeah, it's happened to at least some degree.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Duckay » 22 Dec 2013, 17:34

I guess that touches on one reason the Diversity Lounges makes me a little uncomfortable. I remember at PAX Aus a woman asking a question in a panel about gender and hearing people in the audience scoff, laugh, etc. I can't help but wonder how those same people would react to the Diversity Lounges and what that's going to mean for the culture of the convention. Now, obviously, as long as no one is being threatening, etc, there's nothing that can be reasonably done about people like that - they're entitled to their opinions even if others disagree. However, a part of me wonders if setting up the Diversity Lounges as a designated "safe space" (rather than, for example, having more things like that scattered through the convention, having all enforcers rather than only some be trained in diversity, etc) is going to contribute to, rather than discourage, that kind of culture. I may be dead wrong about this, but it's one of the things that comes to my mind.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby JackSlack » 22 Dec 2013, 17:38

And, contra-wise, it's actually the one thing I really hope for from it: It sends a very clear, firm message that the con-staff regard this as important enough to take steps on it, elevating the visibility of the issue. I'd like to see more visible support for it from Mike & Jerry, though, to further drive that wedge in.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Duckay » 22 Dec 2013, 17:41

That's entirely fair -- and bear in mind that I am not entirely opposed to the idea or anything. I just have some reservations I can't shake about it.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby jiawen » 22 Dec 2013, 17:44

JackSlack wrote:He has a habit of falling in a small ditch and deciding it's a perfect opportunity to pull out his shovel.
Very well put; I strongly agree.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby plummeting_sloth » 22 Dec 2013, 17:57

And I suppose that's something else with the "Ehh, still ambivalent crowd". This thing has seen some pushback. Some off that pushback has been (as Kathleen's example has shown) unfair. Does he grab the shovel again? Because not upping the stakes here and coming back out swinging would be a nice thing to see. Let's face it, if this stuff actually does get implemented, somebody is going to turn to him and go "Hey, this is some bullshit, amirite?" As whatever change was implemented was probably going to be criticized. At the very least, this could be a very good moment that, all things about "A change of heart" or whatever aside, PA has gotten through the fine art of damage control
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lord Hosk » 22 Dec 2013, 20:12

Fayili wrote:I think the other thing, is that a lot of people are commenting on how Mike's comments make minority groups feel. What I'm most worried about are how his comments make bigots feel. They feel reinforced and welcomed. And then they cheer him on, and he gets this feedback that SOMEBODY supports him, so they must be in the right. The reason I felt worried about attending PAX in the future was not because of Mike himself, but because someone might be aware of the Dickwolves or Trans* issues, think that Mike was right or even that he didn't take it far enough, and show up to PAX militantly trying to "take the feminazis down a peg". I don't know how realistic that fear is, but it's a real one that I have. That, to me, is why I need to see growth in Mike more than anything else.


I think that is a very legitimate fear, and that group is there, as evident by the guy that yelled "bring them back" about dickwolf shits, and the people who cheered. I too have that fear about PAX, Im not afraid of them personally for two reasons. First the obvious, Im not the target of their hate. More importantly but easily overlooked because of "my privilege" is that I dont fear them because they are assholes and I dont associate with assholes, I associate with good people like those on this forum I disagree with good people but a good person listens. The reason I do fear them though is because they make AlexanderDitto, and many others who are their targets not want to attend PAX, If good people dont come, I wont go, and I will miss PAX, I havent attended how to get more women in game development panel because I have no interest in game development I didnt go to the "Extra Credits: Diversity - a film viewing and Q&A Session" because it conflicted with another panel. I didnt attend the Gays in Love (With Their RPG’s) panel cause, im proudly Lady Hoskexual... But a lot more people attended those than cheered for the dickwolves and I hope its always that way.

Also, I dont know who the enforcers will be who will man the Diversity area will be, or what training they or other enforcers might get coming up to other events. But just because a enforcer isnt one of the ones who gets "special training" doesnt mean they arent trained in other ways, or are unable to deal with harassment. One of the young ladies who was working line entertainment was about to start her masters program in Clinical Psychology, one of the men running line management in the hyatt is a Sgt in the Air Force who is a Mental Health specialist. I am sure there are others, but I met those two. You cant tell me if someone comes up to them with a complaint they would say "Sorry you will have to go to the safe space for help"
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Duckay » 23 Dec 2013, 15:48

To be entirely cynical and possibly unfair, much like a lack of diversity training doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing, some people who have done diversity training are still going to have no idea or be assholes.

(I am cranky about other, tangentially related things - in the "you should know better" camp.)

ETA: I should note that while I think this is something that people should be aware of, it's by no means a deal breaker. I mean, obviously these things happen and the correct response is not "well, some people know anyway and some people won't learn, so let's not bother" - what I hope will happen is that the diversity training will be offered as widely as possible and if there are any reports of enforcers doing the wrong thing they will be dealt with in some way individually. Given that this seems pretty standard, we have no reason to assume it won't happen. I have fairly high hopes for the diversity training aspect. I still wish it was more widely offered, though. I sincerely hope it will prove to be a success, so they start offering it more broadly still.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Metcarfre » 23 Dec 2013, 16:48

How does PA not have a PR firm on retainer at this point, honestly?
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lord Hosk » 23 Dec 2013, 18:32

"We don't need one"
-people who need one
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Digital Dolphin » 23 Dec 2013, 18:51

Metcarfre wrote:How does PA not have a PR firm on retainer at this point, honestly?


Pretty legit question.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby xantheros » 24 Dec 2013, 02:40

They don't want one.
What I can promise is that we will continue to be honest with you. There’s no bullshit, no PR, this is just Jerry and I and we’re doing the best we can. Hopefully we will keep getting better.

That was in Mike's news post about the PAX13 Q&A panel where he mentioned the Dickwolves shirts(here).

Having a PR company probably wouldn't do them much good anyway. Short of tackling Mike out of his chair at the Q&A panel, nothing would have stopped the latest Dickwolves incident after Robert asked the question. And that's probably not a service most firms offer.

As for Roll For Diversity, the leaked pages (Page 1 and page 2) are already PR speak and it hasn't helped.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby CommanderKeen » 24 Dec 2013, 03:05

I suspect they do and are playing coy about it all. They know the news cycle and they know *most* of the internet forgets within a week of controversy, especially relatively minor stories like this. They've probably been advised to find someone with actual cred in this area (which they did) and intentionally leak this whole thing a few weeks before the christmas/new years cycle. AND when this does happen at East, Aus and Prime in a new and improved format, PA becomes the poster company showing it can be done.

Fact isif this is put in a visible area (perhaps where the LoL tournaments have been held at Prime, show floor is undesirable due to noise and unrelated traffic, as are the other meeting rooms in the convention centre) with panels around the entire exposition as well as vendors and groups and the like. That's a lot of valuable floor space that they're effectively giving to an under-represented segment of not only the gaming population, but also the population at large for an extremely discounted price point. And even if 10 percent of the attendance of PAX makes their way up there, that's 7,000 people which is larger then GaymerX(2,300) and Geek Girl Con(4,300) combined. That's a win and further establishes the community within the community. quick searches of google for numbers

On the other side, nothing that any company does is going to be good enough for some folks. PA is extending an olive branch and unfortunately instead of understanding it's returned with hate and while understandable, hate back is not the answer. Everyone in this would be better off starting anew and working together. I under the fears that this will become a back corner of one of the hotels that Prime uses and all of PAX should be a safe space BUT, PA could do everything that even the most staunchest of haters want and they still would demand more and say it's not good enough.

As for a safe space, one the key parts of it unjudgemental learning- seems like we could use that in this entire discussion.

Personally I'm tired of the bullshit from both sides. I just want to go to established conventions that are relatively free of drama. IS THAT SO HARD?
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lord Hosk » 24 Dec 2013, 13:03

I think the LOL area would be a bad idea, thats WAY out of the way. You have to go up two sets of escalators that lead to nothing but that room.

Areas that could be large enough with enough to not be considered "a token nothing" have good foot traffic, but not be 'in the way' so assholes complain about it.

Prime: On the skybridge over the road, behind were CAH was that was all vendors this year. Bandland. The area outside the queue room that Kurtz and the merch booth were at. The area between band land and the expo floor that had a few booths in it. In the Queue room, devote a entire corner to it.

East: The SkyBridge over the expo floor, line both sides. the hallway between the hotel and the "main theater" escalators. the spot were tabletop gaming is (although that was REALLY a loud space)

AUS: Next to that thing, over by that one place.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby JackSlack » 24 Dec 2013, 16:21

Lord Hosk wrote:AUS: Next to that thing, over by that one place.


I'd have called in the Expo area, to the right as you walk in, with a good solid set of walls. But that's irrelevant since it's moving venues.

So I'll say... Next to that thing, over by that one place.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Digital Dolphin » 24 Dec 2013, 16:24

CommanderKeen wrote:Personally I'm tired of the bullshit from both sides. I just want to go to established conventions that are relatively free of drama. IS THAT SO HARD?


I would say it's impossible. Too many impassioned people in a small space with strong opinions about minute details.

And yes, no matter what there would have been anger and hate returned. I still believe that getting all the people involved, including Khoo, Mike and Jerry, and all the enforcers trained in sensitivity/diversity would be a better starting point though.

I firmly believe that PAX won't be able to make a strong positive difference in the gamer community until it solves the issues within its own team. And there are a lot of issues in that team.

Re: PAX Prime - I hope the lounge isn't put in one of the out-of-the-way hotel spaces, that nobody can find for days (like where boardgaming is now).
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lord Hosk » 24 Dec 2013, 20:06

I wondered where boardgames were, I was going to try to find a pickup game but couldn't find them!
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Digital Dolphin » 24 Dec 2013, 21:21

Lord Hosk wrote:I wondered where boardgames were, I was going to try to find a pickup game but couldn't find them!


None of the Enforcers knew where it was when I was asking either (that was 2012), until I found someone on Sunday who knew.

That was pretty much the final nail in the coffin for me and PAX, and why I purchased a pass to DragonCon (way way way more expensive for me to attend I might add). I just got so sick of the declining quality of event, and feeling less and less like it was something i wanted to support.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby AdmiralMemo » 24 Dec 2013, 23:27

Lord Hosk wrote:I'm proudly Lady Hoskexual
Out of this entire thread, here's the winning phrase. :D Loved it. :D
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Kree » 25 Dec 2013, 07:08

Just for a quick clarification. What are your thoughts on this statement

"You can be whatever gender you choose, but your sex is defined by your chromosomes."
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Master Gunner » 25 Dec 2013, 07:49

While sex is typically defined by biological characteristics (which can be changed, thanks to modern medical procedures), I wouldn't say it's simply defined by one's chromosomes. Gender and one's gender identity are more social and psychological constructs, and a largely (if not entirely) separate issue.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby CommanderKeen » 25 Dec 2013, 07:55

Society and scientific views on the subject vary. The statement isn't necessarily incorrect, nor should there be a correlation to judge people's views on the subject at hand.

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