PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

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PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Alex Steacy » 18 Dec 2013, 01:06

This feels like it's worth discussing.
http://indiestatik.com/2013/12/17/pax-diversity-lounge/
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 18 Dec 2013, 01:15

On the face of it, there isn't much bad here. It basically outlines an area within the convention dedicated to promoting diversity, equality, and appropriate conduct.

Certainly, they could also make significant movements to employ such behaviour within their own convention at large beyond the info-stand diversity space, but since the document doesn't touch on it we can only guess whether that will be the case or not. The action itself, espousing equality to game developers and customers, is pretty noble.

We'll need to see the full implementation before we can really call judgement beyond speculation I think.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Mara Kalat » 18 Dec 2013, 01:19

I think the knee-jerk reaction that the article is jumping to is wrong.
Having a specific segment on diversity doesn't automatically make the rest of the place a hate-fest. A point that I fear will also be brought up is that this might be a "way to pretend Dick Wolves never happened" which I think is also silly.

Basically, I think this can be great.
They just have to find the right balance between entertaining and intelligent, if they do it could really help improve PAX and gaming as a whole.
My advice: Invite Ashley and Anthony Burch (both of HAWP 'fame') as speakers, because they are awesome at handling this topic.

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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Baconus » 18 Dec 2013, 01:19

If the idea here is to provide show floor space to companies that represent diversity in the industry, that seems good. I guess the problem arises when you single out one section as pro-diversity, it necessarily makes the rest seem against it.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Alex Steacy » 18 Dec 2013, 01:19

This didn't come across on twitter, but i'm actually pleased that they are trying to do something to be more inclusive. However, it's a fair criticism to ask why it doesn't apply to the whole convention. As someone in the comments put it, defining one specific zone of PAX as a "safe space" is implying the rest of the event is unsafe.

I like the direction, but I'd also like to see PAX itself be the safe space from the outside world.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 18 Dec 2013, 01:23

Agreed, that'd be great, but since the document only discusses the space itself we can only guess what will also be happening around the rest of the convention. It could well be that this is just one of a thousand changes to improve things at PAX.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Alex Steacy » 18 Dec 2013, 01:24

Ultimately we'll have to see how it all shakes out. Again, my position is one of approval with what I think are reasonable concerns.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Baconus » 18 Dec 2013, 01:27

Alex Steacy wrote:I like the direction, but I'd also like to see PAX itself be the safe space from the outside world.


The attendees at PAX are inherently members of the outside world. Thus have diverse opinions and experiences. Most are great, some are not. I guess the real question is how militant is Penny Arcade prepared to be in bouncing people from the Con?
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lyinginbedmon » 18 Dec 2013, 01:27

"Cautious optimism" is the phrase here I think
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby RocStream » 18 Dec 2013, 01:30

There's always an issue when it comes to dealing with diversity, and dealing with it by creating separate spaces for it. Whenever you section off an area of any kind with the intention for minorities- be it racially, sexually, or what will you- being the majority occupancy of that area, it creates some bad feels. Mostly because historically, that's how people have tried to prevent diversity. So it's completely understandable that the idea of a separate place for diversity doesn't sit well with people.

I think an important aspect of this proposal to consider is the 'Hub' aspect- That part sounds like a customer service booth handing out pamphlets and promoting things. Which is -good-. I'm all for that. Rather than a sectioned of area, with stone walls and iron gates and hazard tape, it's just a place you can stop by, find out what's going on and maybe get interested in attending more diversity-oriented panels or booths.

I feel like the effectiveness of this proposal really depends on how they implement it on the floor. If the area is a bit more ambiguous and still feels connected to the convention as a whole, great. But if it feels like it's been completely separated and is just a place for some 'type' of people to go, it's not gonna really do much.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Alex Steacy » 18 Dec 2013, 01:37

By the way, welcome to the forums, RocStream.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby RocStream » 18 Dec 2013, 01:38

Alex Steacy wrote:By the way, welcome to the forums, RocStream.

Haha, thanks. Long time fan, first-time caller. I played Minecraft with you a couple years back.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Duckay » 18 Dec 2013, 03:28

I'm also not a hundred percent sure how I feel about this one. I appreciate the move but I'm also a little concerned about the implications of it in practice. I suppose we'll have to see how it shakes out in practice.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby CommanderKeen » 18 Dec 2013, 03:43

First off, I don't think that initial article helped that negative feedback chain reaction. Based on what was actually written by PA versus was what reported were two different things. Personally I have seen the "hub" system work with this subject matter, and more.

I'm guessing it's for things like "hey, I hope you've enjoyed my panel, if you would like to learn more come by the hub for more info and perhaps a game or two."

Attending a few of the more society issues at Prime this year, this was sorely needed. People had questions, and either due to time, or they were shy, or questions that probably shouldn't be asked in a room of people, this was sorely needed. I find most of the time, people don't want to ask questions in fear of being labled as a hater, when in reality they were probably just never exposed to that part of life growing up. And that's no one's fault.

As for other events, I attended a World event for youth aged 18-26 in the summer. At itwere about 5 different cafe's following different themes for peoples downtime. One was about global initiatives through the UN, One was pretty general and one was basically exactly what was described by PA, just modified for PAX. Now, because it's a world event, there are some people in the world who are significantly less tolerant or in most cases it's a cultural difference they're not used to.

However at the end of the event the effect of the LGBTQ cafe wasn't a segregation one, but one that infected the entire camp. People who weren't previously aware were, and there was a healthy respect for those from countries where women in bikinis were frowned upon, let alone LGBTQ issues.


Now, what got me the most about the announcement was the automatic hostility that came from all over twitter almost immediately. Personally, *this* was exactly what the community wanted. PAX taking the issues seriously and confronting it head on. As my mentor is fond of saying- "You can't boil the ocean, so boil of pot of water instead" And that's what PAX is doing here. They're centralizing a movement which for years, were just another face in the crowd.

Funny, that sounds exactly what the nerd/geek/gamer community was for a very long time until conventions came along. Keep in mind that PAX employs Reed Exhibitions and they know a thing or two about running conventions. This is also Khoo we're talking about, someone who doesn't do anything without consultation and plans and feedback.

Honestly, if this works, PAX has given the LGBTQ community the largest foothold in the gaming scene they've ever had and the unfortunate part is that some of the most vocal people within in the community don't seem to understand that.


As for the Safe space- Everywhere inside and out of the convention should be a safe space, but that's simply not the case. If you do it the wrong way, people make fun of the concept and you'll never get anywhere. Now, they've got armies of enforcers that can call people out on the BS, so set a logical code of conduct, much like no booth babes, or y'know the rules of PAX or their more legalese code of conduct and stick to it. Change doesn't happen overnight.

I hope that made sense. I want to see this work and in future years expanded. There's one thing they have to do though- have it in the main venue of Prime and in a significantly visible place at Aus and East. If it's not, then all criticism about putting baby in the corner is valid.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Amake » 18 Dec 2013, 04:32

On one hand, you might expand this safe area slowly, over several years, until it covers the convention.

On the other, there's always excuses why you should wait, why you shouldn't make things better right now, and I've yet to hear a good one. We don't get the future by sitting and waiting for it, we get it by making it happen, by pulling it into the present, is how I like to think about it, because then it sort of defeats the concept of progress as a thing that happens over time; no matter what the timescale is, we can make it faster than that. There's literally nothing holding us back except the fear of change.

To do that, though, maybe you'd need a convention run by someone proactive, progressive, on the ball who can recognize people likely to cause problems and can kick them the fuck out before they look at anyone funny. So, probably not Mr Mike Krahulik, or people who chose to work with him. If they can have porn cons where stars of the adult film business can walk around crowded rooms in costume and feel completely safe it can't be that hard to get people to behave around perfectly non-famous, non-naked innocent nerds.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Compufreak99 » 18 Dec 2013, 06:23

I would like to share my thoughts on PAX and the Diversity Lounges as someone who has never gone to PAX.

Whenever a PAX convention finishes, I get two distinct streams of messages. I hear friends, acquaintances, and exhibitors I follow such as Loading Ready Run, talk about all the fun they had. They talk about the people they got to meet, panels that were fun or interesting, things they bought, and the energy of the convention that is powerful and uplifting.

But then, I also get other messages; Stories of horrible inter-personal experiences, rampant sexism, attendees being accosted or being called "fake", Enforcers abusing their power, developers refusing to attend and people boycotting, and the founders making careless statements and/or riling up groups and dividing the gaming community.

It is very difficult for me to try and reconcile these two streams. Some friends tell me to go, that it's an amazing experience, and just don't think about all the terrible stuff. Others say they will never go because they would not feel safe or do not want to support the culture that is fostered by the founders.

Over the past few weeks, I have heard nothing but bad news about Video Game culture. The beast the was VGX, The Mighty No. 9 controversy, the developer of Depression Quest being harassed because she is a woman. PAX itself is one more thing that is dividing the community. If the Diversity Booth can truly cure the toxicity that is in not just the gaming culture, but PAX as a whole, then I wish them the best.

I acknowledge that PAX could be a great experience for me, and as an aspiring game designer it is critical that I attend. As a human being, however, the thought of compromising my principles by attending and supporting the status quo disgusts me.

I wish there was a way to neatly wrap up this line of thoughts, but I'm not sure there is. Thank you all for indulging me, and thank you to Alex for providing a place I could write this.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Cosmosrules » 18 Dec 2013, 06:24

Personally, when I first saw this on Twitter, my initial instinct was to respond with ridicule. "A safe space at PAX? A Diversity Lounge with a Diversity Bar where they serve Diversity Drinks? Bwahahaha!"

Then I took a minute to think about what I had typed. Will this actually do any good in moving forward and making PAX safe like so many want it to be? Nope. That energy can be put to far better use. So I deleted the tweet, and actually *read* the whole document that was leaked. And lo! Instead of overreacting, I came to the conclusion I've seen here. Wait and see. Cautious optimism. This is a step in the right direction, but it remains to be seen whether or not it's enough.

We don't know the whole story, so making fun of this is fruitless, if not detrimental. As with most everything, calm, rational thought needs to be at the forefront of this discussion. As said before, cautious optimism.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby mariomario42 » 18 Dec 2013, 06:37

The points of this lounge making it seem like the rest of it is not safe is a very good point.

I think diversity is a natural process and doesn't need a lounge for it to happen. A section isn't needed when the fans are diverse and interact, and like a lot of learning through our lives, learn about diversity that way. I understand it was needed after people have over reacted with things like the dick wolves, but the lounge idea just kinda sounds silly and out of place.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lord Hosk » 18 Dec 2013, 06:50

Something that was in the "secret leaked document" that I didnt see in the article was that there will be a team of specially trained enforcers on hand to handle the reporting and response to harassment claims.

You get a special team this year, you get a few of them who go out and do other jobs next year and in a few years its a badge of honor for enforcers, you have been doing PAX for a couple years? Do you have your diversity training yet? Come on man all the cool kids learn about diversity and how to respond to harassment...

The way I read the "secret release" this sounds a lot like bandland, maybe a little more secluded though so it can be "safe" not something hidden in a dark corner that you have to go on a quest to find, but something you walk in and past without really knowing it, unless you want to, then BAM its right there.

at PAX east, Bandland is right as you come in the main door, people are walking past all day. At Prime at least this year, it was outside the expo floor, off in the corner. I imagine putting some type of divider up from the elevators to the wall with the benches, not a "closed off" but maybe a curtain wall covering halfish of the edges.
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The bandland space isnt huge, but its big, and thousands of people visited that area at Prime, and yet there were people at the strip search panel who had no idea that the strippers were even in bandland or that bandland existed. People who wanted to go, went, people who didnt want to go, walked right past.

They also bring up how GaymerX "gets it right" so why cant other conventions" GaymerX is a VERY specific event set up with a specific goal, and 2000 people. PAX has a MUCH broader audience and over 30,000 attendees. Comparing the two is like saying that a tangerine is like a pumpkin that gets it right. I mean both are orange plants and have lots of seeds so they are the same thing right?
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby AlexanderDitto » 18 Dec 2013, 08:37

There is a nuanced discussion to be had here. I don't think twitter is the appropriate place to have it, as it leads to necessarily curt responses. The forums are much better.

On the one hand:

1. Providing exposure to games, products, and organizations that aim to improve representation and diversity is a good thing.

2. I'm glad to see the PAX people are making an effort to make amends for what has frankly been some pretty shitty behavior in the past.

3. Having a separate diversity lounge, while not ideal (ideally that diversity would be represented on the show floor itself), is a sort of baby step in the right direction, and would give space to organizations that wouldn't be appropriate for the show floor but should be represented at PAX.

On the other, I am hesitant because:

1. I find it a little duplicitous that they require people "promoting products and services" to also have a booth in the Expo Hall, when a game company like The Fullbright Company specifically said they wouldn't feel comfortable showing Gone Home there. Why would they require that? They don't require groups promoting their products and services in Bandland to have booths on the Expo Floor. I'm guessing this will mean that very small indie developers will be shit out of luck finding a home in this "Diversity Lounge," since they'd have to pay the $27,000 to get an Expo Floor spot too. Since small indie developers are the ones really pushing the envelope on diversity in gaming, this seems like a backwards move.

2. The very concept of a "Safe Space" is subject to VERY mixed feelings among women and the LGBT community, not just at PAX, but in general, because

A. it necessarily singles out individuals for harassment if the space is in a hostile environment and individuals are seen entering/leaving the space;

B. it does imply that areas outside the Safe Space are less safe (and that somehow this is OK);

C. a safe space is only as safe as the people in the space make it. While the document says Enforcers in the space will have undergone Safe Zone training, if this is an "open" area, anybody can go inside. This is a typical problem with Safe Spaces. If a violator or unsafe person enters them, or worse, has power within them (for example an Enforcer who undergoes Safe Zone training but disregards it), the Safe Zone is basically useless.

These three things are problems that all Safe Spaces have, so they're not specifically PAX's fault, but they're definitely problems to be aware of.

Safe Spaces are most often implemented in places where individuals are inherantly disadvantaged, like schools and universities, where youth have reduced agency, and within companies, where individuals can have reduced agency due to work hierarchies. It's unclear why this is the case at PAX. Attendies should have all the agency they're normally afforded. The document does not make it clear how violations of the "Safe Space" tennants will be handled by Enforcers OR the Convention differently than normal harassment. The PAX Harassment policy already outlines the procedures for harassment, which boil down to filling out an incident form, and if the incident is deemed harassment, the violator will get kicked out/banned from PAX, and be reported to the police, if it's appropriate. If the Harassment policy were actually enforced, it's unclear why ALL of PAX wouldn't be a safe space.

3. In regards to the "non judgemental learning" mentioned toward the end of the documents, it's unclear how that will happen. Will organizations/developers be responsible for "educating" their visitors? That's putting the onus on the people already being disadvantaged, some of whom already spend a lot of time dealing with stupid questions from people and who probably do not want to have to "educate" just to show their game (since in many cases the game is supposed to be doing the educating). Is PAX going to provide educators? Because Safe Zone training doesn't prepare you to do that sort of education. It's unclear how this will work, and with how hectic PAX is, I'm not convinced it will. It's not really a prime environment for active education.

---

Hopefully this will be a good thing. I'm hesitant, and given past issues with PAX/PA, I don't know whether I should be optimistic. I guess it depends whether Kristin Lindsay and Jamie are the ones running this (yes please do want), or Robert Khoo. (:/)

I will give them the benefit of the doubt, but I do not blame people who don't. Once bitten, twice shy. Or more accurately, fifty times bitten, forever shy.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lord Hosk » 18 Dec 2013, 08:55

I understand people not trusting Penny-Arcade, what I dont understand is the reaction of "HOW DARE THEY TRY TO DO SOMETHING! ABOUT THIS ISSUE I HAVE BEEN SAYING THEY SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT!"

People have been saying that they need to respond to the problems, and some of those same people are now outrages that they are responding to the problems because "they are just going to make it worse" or "I already gave up on them so this doesnt matter" or "well fine but this should have been there from day one so it being there now is worse than it not being there at all"
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby AlexanderDitto » 18 Dec 2013, 09:47

Lord Hosk wrote:I understand people not trusting Penny-Arcade, what I dont understand is the reaction of "HOW DARE THEY TRY TO DO SOMETHING! ABOUT THIS ISSUE I HAVE BEEN SAYING THEY SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT!"

People have been saying that they need to respond to the problems, and some of those same people are now outrages that they are responding to the problems because "they are just going to make it worse" or "I already gave up on them so this doesnt matter" or "well fine but this should have been there from day one so it being there now is worse than it not being there at all"


That's just people being frustrated and impatient. Or this may not exactly be the way people wanted them to respond to the problem. We'll see how it shakes out once this actually happens.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Alex Steacy » 18 Dec 2013, 09:59

Really, none of this would be as much of a controversy as it is if PA had a spotless record of tolerance.

It's very frustrating and ironic to me that Mike, who is so supportive and understanding of people with mental health issues (like the ones he has) can be so insensitive to other maligned groups, ie: women and trans people. And this especially when you consider his experience being bullied. As Maya said on twitter once, no matter how hard you had it, if you don't rise above that shit and stop yourself becoming another antagonist you are no better than the people that put you in that spot.

I wish it weren't so, but the shitstorm that is dickwolves and twitter rants is out of the bag, and people are in some ways rightfully cynical about PA's actions re: diversity. They'll believe it when they see it, because I guess they feel they've been burned before. The downside here is that expectations of PA making amends have been made very high by their mishandling of past controversies, so anything short of a miracle is getting viewed as a tokenist insult. This is also the source of frustrating strawmen like this one:

"even PA doesn't have the power to snap their fingers and make gaming culture less garbage immediately"

Nobody's expecting them to do that. It's a ridiculous assertion. But people are mad because from a certain perspective diversity lounges sound like PA is showing up at a crowded party saying "Hey guys, we brought a chip!". Their gift horse is looking a little long in the tooth at first glance.

However, it is only first glance. I think cautiously optimistic is an ideal position to be in here, given the circumstances. This is all very early information from leaked documents, so the speculation is rampant. Let's see how it shakes out, and make our concerns known, but not shrilled.

I actually don't think Mike is a bad guy. He's a fine artist with some very fine creations on his resume, but the man is staggeringly tone-deaf about some issues and his slow learning curve is getting mud all over his brand. And I for one would like to see it all scrubbed away, because I think I like redemption stories as much as my dad does. If Mike can genuinely learn to not be an insensitive putz and help transform both his reputation and PAX into a positive place for all people, maybe gamer culture really will become less garbage.
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Alex Steacy » 18 Dec 2013, 10:05

Interesting stuff happening with the #HowToFixPAX hashtag on twitter:
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23HowToFixPAX&src=hash
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Re: PAX to implement "Diversity Lounges"

Postby Lord Hosk » 18 Dec 2013, 10:13

Part of the problem with this is that the article everyone seems to be getting their information from is clearly written from a very anti-mike Anti-PA perspective, and presents the document as a clandestinely uncovered secret memo prepared in a basement written on rice paper in code with invisible ink, smuggled out of enemy territory and exposed to the light of day.

The letter itself is clearly a basic business communication, probably intended to be, or already has been included with all the packets sent out to the gaming industry and those who have had booths in the past. Further because of the way this was written, I assume this "super secret anonymous source" is someone who got the letter in said packet and said "I know someone who can get some clicks out of this"

This letter says nothing about where it will be, how open or closed off the area will be, who will have tables in it, or how it will be a part of the whole plan of PAX, just that going forward, this will be at PAX. The article takes that, assumes and describes the worst way it could be flubbed and then rails on them for flubbing it in those ways.
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