#YesAllWomen

[Duckay]

Empath, I do not argue at all that those things are horrible. However, (and I hope I am not overstepping any bounds here), can I ask that everyone in the thread refrain from cursing at and insulting each other? It's not helpful to anyone.

[ch3m1kal]

I was thinking of posting that map too, partially because I found it interesting that the highest density was in North America and the UK and I was thinking there may be a cultural thing.

But then I realized the answer is much simpler: the whole thing is in English. Which in itself raises some interesting questions on what would happen with a more international discussion.

[Bebop Man]

I was thinking of posting that map too, partially because I found it interesting that the highest density was in North America and the UK and I was thinking there may be a cultural thing.

But then I realized the answer is much simpler: the whole thing is in English. Which in itself raises some interesting questions on what would happen with a more international discussion.

I would've thought it's because the US has the highest "consumption rate" of social media, but it turns out it only has the 4th highest count of the world with 61% of the population using it. Russia is in 3rd place with 75%, Argentina is 2nd with 76% and number one is Indonesia with 83%. Ironically enough the map shows not a single bleep from Russia, and only a couple from Indo & Arg.

http://newmediarockstars.com/2012/03/gl ... media-use/

The poll's outdated by a couple of years so I don't know how drastically those numbers may have changed.

[2stepz]

Another note for those of you wanting to put numbers to this problem. One major reason that using conviction rates of sexual crimes is inappropriate is because a vast majority of assaults/rapes/sex crimes do not ever get reported because of the resulting distress/shame of the victim, and a significant portion of those that do get reported never end in conviction due to lack of evidence... its surprisingly difficult to prove lack of consent 'beyond reasonable doubt.' Not to mention that you can't prosecute near-misses, like the one in the 'spot the question' link.

[korvys]

That map cuts off Australia and New Zealand, but assuming there are a few pings from there, then yeah, it's pretty much just a map of native English speakers.

[Tycherin]

I've experienced the non-reporting thing personally. A friend of mine got assaulted, but didn't want to get the student conduct system involved, so the whole thing got swept under the rug.

And in some ways, it almost doesn't matter what the actual prevalence is. It's high enough to be a problem, and it's high enough that women have reason to be afraid. Certainly having actual data is a good thing that I support completely, but the problems exist regardless.

As for other countries, I'm curious what non-US/CA runners think of the culture outside North America. My assumption -- and maybe this is erroneous, but it makes sense to me -- is that if countries like Australia have similar attitudes toward women and towards sexual assault in general, they probably have the same problems we do here. Maybe it isn't as severe, but I expect they're still there.

[Duckay]

Well, I've been rambling extensively in this thread about my experiences, and I'm not from the US. Either the same problems apply in Australia, or I've been really off-base with my rants.

[JustAName]

JoCo's Skullcrusher Mountain popped into my head ten minutes ago, and then made me sad how much it relates to the cause of this topic.

[korvys]

The Future Soon is kinda eerie as well.

[Deedles]

I've never really hung with big crowds, or gone to parties where there's been alcohol, or been somewhere with alone with a male that wasn't my boyfriend, so I haven't experienced much sexual harassment face to face.

Most of it was from my ex actually, him being pushy about wanting sex, even if I wasn't in the mood, or wanting blow jobs even though I was never fond of giving them. It really just made me feel really uncomfortable, and most of the time I gave in because I thought I had to, that I'd be a bad girlfriend if I didn't.

Most sexual harassment I've gotten have been from people I've known online. People not really backing off in their advances even if I've said that I have a boyfriend, and I'm not interested. Even had someone try to convince me to cheat on my ex because we had a long distance relationship. I also used to do a lot of ERP, though I prefer to do it as part of an actual story, not just randomly out of the blue, but when a few of the males I spoke to on a regular basis found out about it they would only ever ask me to ERP when they wanted to RP. It was annoying, because suddenly I wasn't an RP anymore, I was a way for them to indulge in fetishes and get some sexual frustration out of their system. (It didn't matter that I always told them 'no', they still kept asking.)

(Keep in mind that I'm mostly talking about online interaction in this next party) Funnily enough, the people I've gotten misogynist slurs from have been female. Through my whole life I've mostly had male friends, I found it very easy to hang out with guys, and even in my teens where most girls seemed to look to get positive male attention to make them feel better about themselves, I had no issues getting that attention. Not because I would post loads of pictures of myself, but because I simply spoke to guys like normal human beings, and engaged in the same interests as them. This often lead to me being called and accused of all manner of things by other females, slut being the most common of them.

But, yeah, met plenty of pandering and condescending guys too, as I mentioned above.

[JayBlanc]

So yeah, I am a feminist, and I WILL ALWAYS BE A FEMINIST...

...but I'll be damned if I ever again SAY I'm a feminist.

I'm sorry, obviously someone forgot to give you your medal for being a decent human being. After all, Men deserve recognition and praise when they're not evil. Because men are just that stupid and useless right?

Okay, and just incase the sarcasm there wasn't obvious...

MEN GETTING UPSET AND INDIGNANT THAT THEY DO NOT GET AN AWARD FOR NOT CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEM, IS PART OF THE PROBLEM. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU, STOP DICTATING THAT YOU MUST RECEIVE PLAUDITS FOR DOING WHAT EVERYONE SHOULD BE DOING.

Wow.

Congratulations, you simultaneously
1) missed my point, and

2) proved it.


Because you know what I want?

It's not praise, it's not 'a cookie for doing the right thing' and it's NOT a god-damned medal.

...it's ALSO not hostility and threats and alienation when I try to help another person.

I don't want to get spat on when I simply hold the door open for the person behind me and I later discover that person is a woman.

And I don't want a knife brandished at me when I stoop to help pick up a woman's groceries.

But you REALLY know what I don't want?

To be railroaded by my employer into testifying against that woman for assault charges, which are technically valid.

...it's a shame that my store manager was just a couple of steps behind me in offering to help; if it had just been me, I would have backed off, apologized and let the matter lie.

I've already had to make TWO statements, both to the police and then again to the company lawyer.

And what really tears me up?

It's not her fault; it's that Santa Barbaran idiot who couldn't admit that "I'm asking out the wrong type of girls" or "I'm not trying to be someone anyone would be interested in dating" but instead fallaciously blamed women on his own problems. Because she heard about the spree killing, she felt she needed to carry a knife in her pocket to protect herself.

I HATE that I live in a world where that is an UNDERSTANDABLE (and pragmatic) response.

I don't even WANT to be involved in this shit, but "company policy" dictates that any violent acts on company property have to be dealt with.

I now don't know how to feel about my boss because I USED to like him for being a cool guy and genuinely nice to his employees and his customers, but he just rolled over on this.

And don't even get me started on 'the evils of bureaucratic, soul-destroying corporations'...

So yeah, THAT is why I've given up on this whole mess.


So THANK YOU for knowing me SO WELL. CompleteStranger#9852. Thank you for EXACTLY DETAILING WHAT'S GOING ON IN MY HEAD, you arrogant, blind, ivory-tower, bigmouthed, conclusion-jumper.

FUCK OFF.

Oh. I see. I'm sorry, because here I thought we were talking about the overwhelming weight and bias against women in their interactions with men that out weighs the things men have to complain about in their interactions with women. But clearly these two isolated incidents mean that you, you are the victim here.

Everyone, everyone, stop discussing anything else. We all have to stop and give some attention and platitudes to a Man who once got spat at by a Woman. Come along now, we must all gather around to hear of these woes.

STOP EVERYONE. STOP. IT IS TIME TO LISTEN TO THE MAN TALKING.

And again, for those who do not get the sarcasm...

STOP TURNING THIS CONVERSATION INTO ONE ABOUT YOU AND HOW THIS IS AN ISSUE FOR YOU AND HOW "FEMINISM" IS AT FAULT FOR NOT ADDRESSING IT. THIS ALWAYS HAPPENS. SOME MAN ALWAYS GETS UPSET, AND DEMANDS THAT SOMEONE ADDRESS HOW AWFUL IT IS FOR HIM AS A MAN.

NO.

STOP.

You get a couple of incidents... And you refuse to see that from the female side, and realise that what happened to you is vanishingly insignificant in comparison.

And you don't even see that your explanation of what happened, shows you just as much "just going along" with the weight of the law crushing down on this woman just because she was scared and wanted to keep someone away from her. Have you for a moment thought that the woman is going to have much worse consequences from this than you have, you got a troubling incident you'll probably forget about after a while, she gets a police record.

But no. This has to be about you. And because of that, you're not going to call yourself a Feminist?

Sorry, but you're being an ass. You shouldn't be angry at feminists for this, you should be angry at your manager, and yourself for going along with prosecuting this woman.

[Deedles]

Jay, cool it. You're twisting what Empath is saying, and that isn't cool. He's not angry that he's not getting gratitude, he's angry that in this world women can react with such hostility and he actually finds it UNDERSTANDABLE that they do, because of the fear that women constantly are under.

i.e. Sure, he's talking about himself, but he's more so referring to him not liking to live in a world where things are so hard on women, where they have to be afraid of men.

[Darkobra]

Jesus, Jay. You mind not twisting a serious discussion into a personal agenda? Like some magnificent bastard said on the front page: Help them and drop the power play.

You can come back when you've cooled off and realised you're running this into the ground with hyperbole and miscommunication. A topic that is ALREADY hard enough for BOTH genders to talk about.

Drop the hostility and make the entire world a better place. The last way to do that is to start attacking someone that's trying to help and understand something that is very openly out there but rarely addressed.

[Merrymaker_Mortalis]

I was thinking of posting that map too, partially because I found it interesting that the highest density was in North America and the UK and I was thinking there may be a cultural thing.

But then I realized the answer is much simpler: the whole thing is in English. Which in itself raises some interesting questions on what would happen with a more international discussion.

You (and others) might find https://www.facebook.com/StealthyFreedom really interesting then.

[JayBlanc]

Jesus, Jay. You mind not twisting a serious discussion into a personal agenda? Like some magnificent bastard said on the front page: Help them and drop the power play.

You can come back when you've cooled off and realised you're running this into the ground with hyperbole and miscommunication. A topic that is ALREADY hard enough for BOTH genders to talk about.

Drop the hostility and make the entire world a better place. The last way to do that is to start attacking someone that's trying to help and understand something that is very openly out there but rarely addressed.

No.

Because, I want you to go back up there and read what was actually posted.

The Woman in this instance now has at best a police record, at worst has been detained and will be charged as a criminal.

And despite Empath knowing and admitting it was wrong to do so he cooperated with treating this woman like a criminal for protecting herself from a perceived threat. She didn't even hurt Empath.

And this is being presented as the reason why Empath won't say he's a feminist, because this was something bad that happened to him.

And no... This isn't derailing, or changing the topic to a political agenda, this is what #YesAllWomen is about. It is the counter reaction to "But not all men..." thinking, it is the counter reaction to men stepping into every conversation about rape culture to interject with "Oh but if only you treated me better because I'm a nice person". And the way it stops is for the people to do that to stop getting treated like they're the ones "injecting sanity into the conversation", because they're really not, they're the ones who are helping perpetuate the problems.

#YesAllWomen is about saying "No. No you are not trying to help when you come into the discussion and say 'But not all men...' and try to reframe it as Women needing to treat Men better."

I'm going to call that behaviour out when I see it, because it needs to be called out.

[Deedles]

You're still twisting what he said. It was probably between him losing his job or doing what he did, and sadly as awesome as it would be to live in a world where you can just go 'Fuck having a job, I don't need money!' you DO need money. And it's not like he did what he did because he WANTED to, he also explained that his manager pushed him into doing it.

So, yes, you ARE derailing the thread, you are being a pretentious douchebag, so please start being constructive and focusing on something that ACTUALLY MATTERS, or get the FUCK out of this thread!

Edit: Not to mention, thank you for replying to the MAN who told you off, not the woman.

[Darkobra]

An outright no to dropping the hostility. Not even getting all the facts and lashing out. Openly creating a hostile environment in a thread where women want to feel safe and talk about their experiences to educate the world.

I'm not encouraging you. I'm going to let you leave and let you come back when you've thought about the toxic environment you alone have created when you could have settled things without your attitude. Because guess what? This isn't the thread for you to be in the spotlight and make this about you.

This will be the last post I address to you because I will not entertain you as you derail this thread. I am letting you know that you're doing far more damage than you think you're doing. And the ironic thing? That's the entire point of the fucking thread!

Come back when you've calmed down and do not bring open hostility into this thread again. I'm sure this is the last time you'll need to be told this as you're a smarter man than that.

[RedNightmare]

Also, what was Empath supposed to do, lie to the police when they come to take his testimony? Not testify and lose his job and still have the woman get a police record (because you bet ya that manager is still going to testify)?

The part about him getting spat on about opening a door, yeah, that might be about him, I'll give you that, but the second part was definitely not about him but about the world around him in which a woman is so scared of a man helping her with groceries that she pulls a knife and THAT BEING AN UNDERSTANDABLE THING TO DO!!

As for Empath's first post, I've already addressed that in my long post.

[AdmiralMemo]

Edit: Not to mention, thank you for replying to the MAN who told you off, not the woman.

I didn't even see that... I didn't even see that... Good LORD, this type of thing is so insidious, even when you think you've got it tramped down and under some semblance of control in your own mind.

[RedNightmare]

I know right. This is what frightens me the most. I'm being part of it myself and I don't even notice it half the time

[Metcarfre]

Oh cool, I have another article that I think at least all men should read here; http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... nerds.html

I’ve heard [the murderer]’s voice before. I was expecting his manifesto to be incomprehensible madness—hoping for it to be—but it wasn’t. It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder.

[ch3m1kal]

You (and others) might find https://www.facebook.com/StealthyFreedom really interesting then.

I do find it interesting. I also makes me incredibly angry and sad that those women can be killed for doing that, especially when things like this happen: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/23/the-kiss-that-sent-iran-crazy-and-an-actress-to-be-flogged-in-public.html

Ignoring the stupid title of that article for a second, I don't think anyone needs me to point out that this is not an isolated incident and that it's not just Iran, or even just Islamic countries. And even if it was, the fact is that she was still the one who had to apologize (UNDER THE THREAT OF DEATH) while nobody did or said anything. And she's not the only one, I just hope she stays safe.

But yes, when this is how the world works, I hope you can forgive me for being cynical about the odds of making a change any time soon. OFC that doesn't mean we shouldn't try...

[Duckay]

I feel like I'm basically just sort of word-vomiting all over this thread, so if anyone thinks I'm off-base, feel free to say so. But really, I think both empath and JayBlanc said things that shouldn't have been said, and I reiterate what I said before, I for one would really like it if we could keep the discussion going without blowing up at each other. I get that it's a point of passion and tensions are running high - I feel the same way myself - but that's not helping anyone. The same points can be made without insulting, sarcastic or explicit language directed at each other.

[Deedles]

I have no problem with that, my problem is Jay not really staying on topic, so I'm not blowing up at him for discussing #YesAllWomen. He created a faux problem in the things that Empath said and refused to let them go when asked, even calmly, insisting that 'no, I'm right!'.

Of course getting aggressive isn't a solution that should always be taken up, but the reason I called him a pretentious douchebag is because I sincerely think he is acting like a pretentious douchebag.

[Tycherin]

Oh cool, I have another article that I think at least all men should read here; http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... nerds.html

Yeah, that's the terrifying part, isn't it? That this case is unique only in its severity. That there are countless incidents like this that don't end in mass murder and therefore don't get this level of attention. We can't pass incidents like this off as "just a random act of violence by a crazy person."

Duckay - agreed on all points. Though I do get that this is one of those deeply personal and sometimes deeply painful subjects that drives people a little insane. Sometimes a lot insane.