Feminism general thread

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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Sieg Reyu » 10 Jul 2014, 19:35

I guess technically I'm a feminist, but I fancy myself an egalitarianist, which I didn't know the word for until just know, I'd always just called myself an equalist or a rights activist. Thanks, Alex.

I know it's kind of played out, but identifying yourself as a feminist has negative connotations. I hate that, I do, but it's the truth. There are a large amount of extremists within the community, and while they may be the minority, they have a propensity for being more vocal and more well-known.

People are flawed, they are fucked up, that's just the heart of the matter. I don't know if we'll ever be able to fix it, but I hope we can.

I tend to get Socratic with people I don't agree with, or even myself when I come across a new viewpoint. I like to ask "why?" in order to help myself and others to come to an understanding on why we think the way we do. It helps me, I just wish I knew whether or not it helped other people. I think ultimately the reason I don't declare myself a feminist is because, to me, that feels like picking a side. And when when you pick a side, it becomes that much harder to be open to what the other side. People want to be right. They don't want to learn, they don't want to change, not if it means they're wrong. It's easier to ask the question "Why?" when I'm not afraid of the answer. If I abstain from picking a side, I remove the impulse to want to be right. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I acknowledge the fact that men hold power over women in many regards, but I also recognize that there are some aspects that women hold power over men in. Not as many, for sure, but still. I feel that one of the key problems is that neither side wants to give up any of that power, they're afraid that the other side will have more power than them. Which is just a completely bass ackward way of thinking. We shouldn't strive for a world where women hold an equal amount of power over men, an ideal world is where neither side holds power over the other. It's time that everyone does like that one song from that really popular Disney movie, Frozen, and just "Build a Snowman."

In my ideal world, masculinity and femininity makes about as much difference as hair color, just a matter of personal preference. Just a small measure of what makes people who they are. I could talk about how my girlfriend, who doesn't shave or wear make-up, stuck one of her toys up my poopchute, and I liked it, and nobody would accuse me of being on of them there homosexuals. And if I was gay, it wouldn't matter. Because it doesn't. It really doesn't.

I have an allegory I like to kick around in my head. Maybe an allegory isn't the right word. Basically, I like to imagine what if we treated people differently based on eye color. Because basically, that is what we are doing. Eye color is a genetic trait just like skin color, sex, or orientation. Did we prove that was genetic? I'm not sure. I'm gonna assume we did. Just imagine a world were you locked the doors of your car every time someone with blue eyes walked by. Or you just felt like people with green eyes should cook and clean for you. It just doesn't make sense to me. And yeah I know, there are a lot of cultural differences at play that make people act differently towards people of those various ethnicities/sex/orientations. But in a world were we started treating people differently based on eye color those cultural differences would arise because we would make them. People would accept those stereotypes that are set upon them, while others fought them. Which in turn would only reinforce the stereotypes because you can't fight something that isn't there.

And more importantly what would our world be like if we stopped treating people differently because they're different. What if the fact that her eyes were blue made as little difference as her sex did when her paycheck came in? And what if his brown eyes were no more intimidating than his black skin? What if you weren't afraid, that just because his eyes were hazel, he was a morally bankrupt person trying to convert your kids into having hazel eyes. And being gay. I guess ultimately that's the point I'm trying to make here. Eye color doesn't matter. Skin color doesn't matter. Sex doesn't matter. Nothing matters.


Sorry, I didn't get much sleep last night, and I've gotten to the point where I've gotten extremely lucid and word-talky. I'll check back tomorrow to see if this was even remotely intelligible.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby hascow » 10 Jul 2014, 19:37

Lots of terms are like that. Political terms, religious terms, what have you.

Plenty of Christians hate the connotation of "Christian", but still call themselves that, because they hope to change the story on what the term means. Same with Conservatives, Liberals, Muslims, etc.

That doesn't change the fact that it's the correct term. Do you add a qualifier of some sort in order to change the term from what the general public thinks, the way there are religious denominations and qualifiers of all sorts? I think that's the wrong way to go about it, because it splits a base that should be united in their foundational ideals.

I don't really think anything CAN be done about it without adding a qualifier or adding "denominations" to feminism, but then we run into all the problems of splitting a group. Why should we change the term because there are different interpretations? Make it a talking point, a way to get the conversation started. That's what I do with religious views, and it's what I do when I talk about feminism.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Matt » 10 Jul 2014, 19:37

Alex Steacy wrote:When a radfem thinks feminism, she imagines taking away men's ice cream and chopping their dicks off.


I want to interject here with a clarification. "Radical Feminism" does not mean "man hating female supremicist". "Radical" in this context has a very specific meaning that is not synonymous with "extreme".

Radical feminism acknowledges and asserts the existence of Systems of Patriarchal power, and seeks to overthrow those systems through opposition to gender roles and attempts at re-ordering society.

Surely there are some radfems that are shitty people, and who subscribe to extreme interpretations of feminism (TERFs for example), and there have certainly been flaws in radfem ideology over the years, but let's not conflate radical feminism with female supremacy or straw-feminism. The MRAs do that enough already.

-m
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Baconus » 10 Jul 2014, 19:37

I think a problem is that mainstream feminism (yay lets all be equal!) has been too reticent to call out "radical" feminism for its nonsense. The mainstream movement must be more willing to exclude violent, and exclusionary elements.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby J_S_Bach » 10 Jul 2014, 19:38

hascow wrote:Yes, men have to deal with some, but they have to deal with less, and there's no societal biases keeping them back. It's really easy to trivialize the actual women's issues if you change the name from "feminism".


There are still several societal biases keeping men back as well if you don't fit the idea of masculinity. When my wife and I were first dating she had a really interesting idea. She made up a list of jobs that stereotypically have more women than men working in them: hair salons, community service, education, hospitality, retail, etc. She then made up two identical resumes (one with her name and one with mine) and we disrupted them through three communities (Florenceville-Bristol, Hartland, and Woodstock). Of all the businesses that responded not a single one called for me, I was quite offended. I know this is only an anecdote and the treatment of women by society is far worse than how men has been treated but that does not mean that men do not need representation all people should be treated equal but they aren't.

This is something that I actually had to deal with after I finished University and I wanted to work as a music teacher. I had to prove myself worthy of deserving a job and jump through several hoops as well as gather my own students. Eventually a female coworker got fed up with the music school and had to vouch on my behalf as other, teachers didn't have to find their own students. The issue was that I was applying to be the only violin and viola teacher there and since I wasn't playing one of the boys instruments (guitar or drums) the music school didn't think that parents would want a male teacher teaching their children violin. I had to step in when another male teacher applied to be a vocal instructor.

Where I grew up if you didn't fit the idea of masculinity or femininity you were ostracized. I do not agree with that practice, that is why I consider myself an egalitarian.
Last edited by J_S_Bach on 10 Jul 2014, 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Alex Steacy » 10 Jul 2014, 19:43

Matt wrote:
Alex Steacy wrote:When a radfem thinks feminism, she imagines taking away men's ice cream and chopping their dicks off.


I want to interject here with a clarification. "Radical Feminism" does not mean "man hating female supremicist". "Radical" in this context has a very specific meaning that is not synonymous with "extreme".

Radical feminism acknowledges and asserts the existence of Systems of Patriarchal power, and seeks to overthrow those systems through opposition to gender roles and attempts at re-ordering society.

Surely there are some radfems that are shitty people, and who subscribe to extreme interpretations of feminism (TERFs for example), and there have certainly been flaws in radfem ideology over the years, but let's not conflate radical feminism with female supremacy or straw-feminism. The MRAs do that enough already.

-m


My bad. I was trying to imply "batshit feminist extremists"
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby hascow » 10 Jul 2014, 19:46

J_S_Bach wrote:
hascow wrote:Yes, men have to deal with some, but they have to deal with less, and there's no societal biases keeping them back. It's really easy to trivialize the actual women's issues if you change the name from "feminism".


There are still several societal biases keeping men back as well if you don't fit the idea of masculinity. When my wife and I were first dating she had a really interesting idea. She made up a list of jobs that stereotypically have more women than men working in them: hair salons, community service, education, hospitality, retail, etc. She then made up two identical resumes (one with her name and one with mine) and we disrupted them through three communities (Florenceville-Bristol, Hartland, and Woodstock). Of all the businesses that responded not a single one called for me, I was quite offended. I know this is only an anecdote and the treatment of women by society is far worse than how men has been treated but that does not mean that men do not need representation all people should be treated equal but they aren't. Where I grew up if you didn't fit the idea of masculinity or femininity you were ostracized. I do not agree with that practice, that is why I consider myself an egalitarian.


I think Matt had a response to this already better than one I could write.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Baconus » 10 Jul 2014, 19:47

Super anecdotal story incoming

I have been in university gender classes where dangerous and violent 'feminist' views have been said. The professors and students have been unwilling to speak up and say how that is not acceptable. The same thing cannot be said about religious or politcal extremism, that is denoucned quickly.

I want to be in lock step with feminism. But the extreme elements scares me. Women (I should keep quiet as a man) need to assert these views are not ok
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Duckay » 10 Jul 2014, 19:50

I don't think people are trying to say that men meet need representation. However, there has developed something of a backlash against bringing men's issues into feminist discussions because of the history of people downplaying women's issues in order to discuss men's issues. It's sort of the same thing behind men being told to stay out of certain feminist discussions; a backlash against men talking over women. I am not saying that the backlash is correct, or that men brought it on themselves. I just think there's a history in which people on both sides behaved poorly.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Matt » 10 Jul 2014, 19:52

Baconus wrote:Super anecdotal story incoming

I have been in university gender classes where dangerous and violent 'feminist' views have been said. The professors and students have been unwilling to speak up and say how that is not acceptable. The same thing cannot be said about religious or politcal extremism, that is denoucned quickly.

I want to be in lock step with feminism. But the extreme elements scares me. Women (I should keep quiet as a man) need to assert these views are not ok


I have run in some pretty hardcore feminist circles, and I don't think I have ever seen dangerous or violent feminist views produced, and not immediately rebuked - at least not without them being clearly tongue in cheek.

The ones I have seen (trans-exclusionary radical feminism, as an example here) have been largely excised from the movement of third-wave feminism as a whole, and you'll often see feminists openly protesting against TERFs at TERF organized events.

So... ?

-m

edit: that is to say, I don't doubt that it happens, but the extent to which it is focused on in discussions of feminism is wildly disproportionate.

Apologies for the obviously inappropriate analogy, but it is akin to (though not remotely as severe as) focusing on terrorists while discussing muslims.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Baconus » 10 Jul 2014, 19:56

Matt wrote:
Baconus wrote:Super anecdotal story incoming

I have been in university gender classes where dangerous and violent 'feminist' views have been said. The professors and students have been unwilling to speak up and say how that is not acceptable. The same thing cannot be said about religious or politcal extremism, that is denoucned quickly.

I want to be in lock step with feminism. But the extreme elements scares me. Women (I should keep quiet as a man) need to assert these views are not ok


I have run in some pretty hardcore feminist circles, and I don't think I have ever seen dangerous or violent feminist views produced, and not immediately rebuked - at least not without them being clearly tongue in cheek.

The ones I have seen (trans-exclusionary radical feminism, as an example here) have been largely excised from the movement of third-wave feminism as a whole, and you'll often see feminists openly protesting against TERFs at TERF organized events.

So... ?

-m


Recently I have heard "women are inherently better than men" or the other day "men have had their chance, women should be legally the only ones allowed to be in government"

I thoight they were joking at first, but nope. It was absurd. If the movement is about equality, one side cannot be "better"
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Matt » 10 Jul 2014, 19:58

Baconus wrote:
Matt wrote:
Baconus wrote:Super anecdotal story incoming

I have been in university gender classes where dangerous and violent 'feminist' views have been said. The professors and students have been unwilling to speak up and say how that is not acceptable. The same thing cannot be said about religious or politcal extremism, that is denoucned quickly.

I want to be in lock step with feminism. But the extreme elements scares me. Women (I should keep quiet as a man) need to assert these views are not ok


I have run in some pretty hardcore feminist circles, and I don't think I have ever seen dangerous or violent feminist views produced, and not immediately rebuked - at least not without them being clearly tongue in cheek.

The ones I have seen (trans-exclusionary radical feminism, as an example here) have been largely excised from the movement of third-wave feminism as a whole, and you'll often see feminists openly protesting against TERFs at TERF organized events.

So... ?

-m


Recently I have heard "women are inherently better than men" or the other day "men have had their chance, women should be legally the only ones allowed to be in government"

I thoight they were joking at first, but nope. It was absurd. If the movement is about equality, one side cannot be "better"


those views are clearly not mainstream or representative of the movement as a whole, either way.

-m
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Alex Steacy » 10 Jul 2014, 20:00

I believe both of you, but what do we do about it?
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Baconus » 10 Jul 2014, 20:01

Oh absolutely they aren't Matt, that is my point. These people need to be rebuffed by the mainstream movement. This wioll take the "radfems ahhh!" bullet out of the gun of opponents to equality
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Alex Steacy » 10 Jul 2014, 20:02

I guess does more need to be done about breaking extremism away from the rest of feminism?
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Baconus » 10 Jul 2014, 20:05

Alex Steacy wrote:I guess does more need to be done about breaking extremism away from the rest of feminism?


I am a conservative, I am very quick to call out bullshit from other people who are in line with that label. against a women's right to choose? You are an idiot. Don't think there should be a social safety net? You do not speak for me. Feminism needs to be be more willing to exclude absurd opinions.

I realize this post sounds self agrandizing. I am sorry
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Duckay » 10 Jul 2014, 20:05

Will it? I mean, my point from before holds true. Plenty of people use the term "radfem" to describe women who are outspoken about their feminist views, however moderate those views are. Certainly, if you disagree with someone's views, say so, but using terms like "radfem" as a catch all insult isn't helping.

Yes, people should call out (by challenging the concepts, not insulting the people) extreme, hateful and unhelpful dialogue out when they see it, but this should happen on both sides of the debate, correct? Now, maybe you or I do that when we see it, but I'd love to encourage more people to do it in general.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Sieg Reyu » 10 Jul 2014, 20:07

Also, I would like to be the first to take a moment to acknowledge all the people who created accounts just to post in this thread, as well as the people who haven't been around for very long who were brave enough to jump in anyway. New blood is always appreciated, especially the ones who aren't afraid of a little discourse. I love you guys so much it gives me the male equivalent of a lady boner. Whatever that's called.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Matt » 10 Jul 2014, 20:08

Thank you Duckay, for basically covering the point I was trying to come around to but not quite able to articulate yet.

Any threat to the status quo will be derided as radical by defenders of the status quo. Engage the ideas you're presented, don't dismiss them based on some past slight.

You aren't talking to the person who said women are superior to men, and I have already told you that those opinions are not acceptable mainstream feminism. Beyond that, I can't speak to the people you have ostensibly heard these things from, because I am not them.

-m

edit: I'm going for a run now that I should have gone for hours ago.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby J_S_Bach » 10 Jul 2014, 20:17

The problem I've had when I share with very vocal feminists that I'm an egalitarian is usually the response of "if you're not with us than you're against us".

I believe that all people should be treated equally, in New Brunswick there are a lot of feminists who believe that women's issues should be addressed first and I know that is not the case for every feminist everywhere. My opinion on the matter is that because New Brunswick is typically a lot more conservative than somewhere, like say, British Columbia, the push back from the feminists here in NB is on the more radical/batshit end of the bell curve.

I do not call myself a feminist because where I live that has several negative connotations that I do not want to be associated with. Here we call it egalitarianism, and perhaps what we call egalitarianism is what you call feminism and I'm alright with that, so why do people have an issue with me saying: "I'm an egalitarian" are you saying that it isn't as good as feminism? To me that sounds a little hypocritical.

One of the things that sparked this forum was a tweet I sent to Alex about the new redesign of Batgirl design http://www.themarysue.com/new-batgirl-creative-team/ I was at the campus because it has the best Tim Hortons in the city and I overheard one of the extremist feminist professors talking about this new design (which as far as I know was only revealed today) and using it as an example of the toxic comic book industry for women. The main point I heard her make was that she had issue with the leather jacket. Her claim was that the jacket was being used to hide Batgirl's breasts in a form of body shaming. The prof claimed it to be further proof that if a woman wants to make it as a superhero she must look like a man or be putting her body on display.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Baconus » 10 Jul 2014, 20:21

J_S_Bach wrote: The prof claimed it to be further proof that if a woman wants to make it as a superhero she must look like a man or be putting her body on display.


So either it covers her up, and is bad. Or it is flaunting, and impractical, and also bad? What did she say would be a good costume?
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Alex Steacy » 10 Jul 2014, 20:23

See, that's crazy. We finally get a reasonable looking superheroine costume and she says "DAT'S SEXIST!". The goalposts have phased out of existence with some people.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby J_S_Bach » 10 Jul 2014, 20:23

I'm not sure she every did say what a good costume is. Unfortunately I have already graduated so I was only eavesdropping from outside the door of the class. I would have liked to have participated in the debate but I was afraid of having campus security called on me and lose my access to the Tim Hortons.
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Baconus » 10 Jul 2014, 20:26

Alex Steacy wrote:See, that's crazy. We finally get a reasonable looking superheroine costume and she says "DAT'S SEXIST!". The goalposts have phased out of existence with some people.


This goes beyond feminism, into areas like religion and social justice. There is now a permanent "offended class'. These people seek out reasons to be angry to prove the world is a terrible place. You see it in politics (my area of study) all the time. There are people who will oppose and be mad, regardless of what anyone does
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Re: Feminism general thread

Postby auberginequeen » 10 Jul 2014, 20:28

What twisted logic when apparently wearing any outfit that isn't skin-tight boobtastic spandex is dressing "like a man." I wonder what on earth she wears, because apparently it's not clothing.

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