Feminism general thread

[korvys]

A role model is needed to get in there to entice women to join in.

That's a common assumption about women in STEM, that they aren't interested for various reasons, such as a lack of role models, a lack of support in school, etc, so we need to find more ways to get women into STEM in the first place.
While these are issues, women also have a much higher drop out rate from these jobs, often citing an unwelcoming environment.
Simply put, keeping the women who are already in STEM is as important, if not more so, than getting them in in the first place.

[korvys]

Good talk on the Matt Taylor sexy-ladies-shirt-business;

http://putthison.com/post/102726785913/kudos-to-this-guy-really-earlier-this-week-we

By the way, this is probably my favourite line from this article:

When you have the upper hand in society, it’s easy to leave your decisions unexamined. It’s easy to assume something is neutral that’s actually hurtful to others.

[JustAName]

Valkyrie: Feminism tells women and girls that they are right in justified in wanting to fight for their rights. Because we ARE told everywhere that we are lesser. So until culture actively acknowledges us as equal, yes, we do need it. People are only too willing to shut us out in any way they can.

[Shandi]

About the shirt: I personally have no problem with it, see it as cool artwork and expression, and absolutely love when people defy standards of dress because I've never liked or been any good at what the rules say I should wear in a given situation, BUT I hear a lot lately about sensitivity and how to be mindful of my privilege, and based on that I figure I must be privileged in having never experienced anything that leads me to be harmed by him wearing that shirt. If that's the case, I would rather keep my voice down and try to listen and let the people speak who have been under privileged and are trying to find their voices on an issue that affects them and not me.

[Avistew]

I'm pretty confused about "we need to give up the freedom to decide what is right or wrong". We never had that freedom. The laws make the decisions. We don't have the freedom to decide murdering is okay, we'll get punished if we do it. I don't see why sexist crimes should be any different.

[AlexanderDitto]

The Put this On article was spot on and sums up all that needs to be said on the matter.

Except that many of the women who spoke up about the shirt first are now getting death threats on twitter. :/

---

Can you imagine the comments he'd get if he were a gay guy and were wearing a shirt made of this fabric?

[Elomin Sha]

Probably some moronic dude bros calling him some sexual slurs.

[Elomin Sha]

Curiousity question: should we be telling people what they can and cannot wear? It was an automatic accusation of being a sexist with no knowledge of what he is like personally. Personally no one should have an automatic label thrown on them. Critique is one thing, accusing is another. I have a lot of questions to ask before I come to a decision.

[Metcarfre]

The action was sexist; doesn't make the man sexist, just ignorant.

[Shandi]

I don't want anyone telling me what to wear unless I ask them to nor judging me based on it. But then again, I do want someone to call me on it if I say or do something they find hurtful, as it's never my intent.
I thought I got this cool vid off these forums, but I don't recall. Anyway, it's a video on confronting racism, and it's about tackling what a person did, rather than who they are. Seems relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc.

[Valkyrie-Lemons]

Curiousity question: should we be telling people what they can and cannot wear? It was an automatic accusation of being a sexist with no knowledge of what he is like personally. Personally no one should have an automatic label thrown on them. I have a lot of questions to ask before I come to a decision.

Yes, we should tell people what they can and cannot wear, because it some cases there is a valid reason to do so.

I.E. If someone wears a shirt in public that says "F**K the police" (without the censoring), you could tell them they shouldn't wear that shirt in public because people will be offended by the swearing on the shirt. The key aspect here is that the people who may be offended may not feel confident enough to speak up.

However, an obvious issue with this is where do you draw the line? Should you prevent people from wearing a "Religion is a lie!" shirt, or a "Immigrants go home!" shirt, or a "I don't like fat people," shirt?

The issue I presume you're talking about (The ESA guy) is something where people may be offended by what he wore, but may not feel confident enough to tell him face to face. However, the problem lies in really how offensive it actually was. I believe it was a women who gave him (and made) the shirt, which asks the question of if it's a matter of taste.

So while there is a good reason to tell people not wear certain items of clothing, the difficult part is where to draw the line.

[Avistew]

I dunno. There are extremes obviously. I don't think KKK or Nazi themes would be received very well on clothing, for instance. Similarly, it's make-up and not clothes, but blackface or equivalents would not be in good taste.

Also, in professional contexts, there is a huge history of wearing specific clothing. Most places of work have a dress code, which can be as strict as a uniform, but usually isn't completely "whatever you want".

On the other hand, there is something to be said for immediately identifying someone you would not get along with by what they choose to wear. And clothes have been a way to express yourself for a while.

In the end, I think his shirt was fine as a shirt, but inappropriate for the specific context. It would also have been inappropriate to go topless for instance. I don't think it means he's a horrible person, just that he didn't really think it through.

[Metcarfre]

In the end, I think his shirt was fine as a shirt, but inappropriate for the specific context. It would also have been inappropriate to go topless for instance. I don't think it means he's a horrible person, just that he didn't really think it through.

I'd say that's right. It was made by a friend and fellow (female) researcher, so it's probably fine to wear as a joke at a barbeque or a lab meeting. In front of the world's press during an historic event? Not so much.

[Dutch guy]

I don't really think he ever even considered the shirt might be seen as a problem by anyone.

The problem with all STEM fields is exactly that it IS a male dominated field. I work for a high-tech company where more than 85% of workers are male. On the production floor, women are even more outnumbered (Out of 1600 people in the company I believe we have less than 250 women. The building I work has just 6, only 2 of which work in a cleanroom with close to 100 staff).
But because it's "men amongst men" there is barely any "you crossed the line there dude" happening. I've had some rather uncomfortable moments when co-workers said or did things I would not exactly call correct, but very rarely does anyone ever speak up about it. There is a very real possibility the guy has worn that shirt quite often and only got "cool shirt bro" comments from co-workers. Being so isolated in that male dominated world, how was he supposed to know it was in poor taste.

[Jamfalcon]

As an aside to this conversation, I was just thinking recently, and I wanted to thank everyone on this forum for all the discussion in this thread and many others over the years. Before I came here, I didn't know much about any of these subjects, and while my views were more or less in the right place, I understand the depth of these issues so much more now. Keep on talking.

Oh, and my girlfriend also thinks you're all awesome. Her major is entirely focused on these subjects, and you've made me able to have a much more informed conversation.

[My pseudonym is Ix]

What Jam said (although without the girlfriend part)

[korvys]

It's also important to note the difference between telling someone they can/cannot wear/say/do something, and saying that there may be a reaction to them doing something.

The pithy phrase I heard was "It's freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences".

I would not say that man could not wear that shirt, but I might say he should not wear that shirt.

It is a fine line, as there's a point at which saying "don't do that, or there will be consequences" is effectively saying "you can't do that", if the consequences are severe enough.



This post is not as well put together as I would have liked, but I'll post it anyway. :S

[Duckay]

I see the point that you're positing. To me, this feels very much like a matter of context. If that shirt is being worn at a bowling league, or to the supermarket, or to a picnic, it's a very different issue than this. One, because I find it unprofessional and therefore inappropriate for the context (in much the same way as I would find it inappropriate if he was, for example, wearing a shirt with profanity, or with a big rip in it), and two, because it perpetuates the notion of the boy's club.

Then again, I've just come from workplace training where we had some very long talks about dress code, so my opinion is more than likely biased.

[JackSlack]

I kind of liked Popehat's take.

I would advise my clients that someone wearing this shirt should be counseled in an appropriate manner to wear it on their own time. It's not sexual harassment, and it doesn't create a hostile workplace: it's nowhere near being severe or pervasive enough to change the nature of the workplace. However, it could eventually be cited as one factor in a long list of things that create a hostile work environment. That's why I'd say it's a risk, in addition to being — in my opinion — unprofessional.

[Rikadyn]

Curiousity question: should we be telling people what they can and cannot wear? It was an automatic accusation of being a sexist with no knowledge of what he is like personally. Personally no one should have an automatic label thrown on them. Critique is one thing, accusing is another. I have a lot of questions to ask before I come to a decision.

Probably not. Otherwise you run into a quagmire of people being able to argue that women shouldn't wear revealing cloths if they don't want to be called sluts.

That being said I'm not sure how a shirt like that is allowed in a professional setting...I mean sure wear it on a saturday when you're cutting grass but I can't imagine wearing something like that to work, unless you're bartender at a strip club.

I have a lot of problems with keyboard activists, but that is a different thread discussion I think.


On a different note, I've been reading the memoirs of Japanese woman who were imprisoned or executed for being part of the equal rights and feminist movements from Meiji-to Pre WWII.

[Duckay]

"Telling people what they can and cannot wear" is a big category of things, though. I mean, there is an enormous difference between "don't wear open-toed shoes at work, it is a safety hazard" and "don't wear a burqa, it's unAustralian". To use a less dramatic example, there's also a big difference between "the office dress code requires that employees wear shirts with sleeves" and "women who wear tank tops are sluts". Or "don't wear this shirt in front of your grandmother" and "don't wear this shirt".

The question then becomes, under what category does this shirt fall?

[empath]

...probably different categories for different observers...

[Elomin Sha]

Being offened is subjective too. When I lived in a pub a regular would wear an Alice in Wonderland shirt that showed Alice blowing on a eecently fired revolver. The White Rabbit had a hole in its head. That kind of offended me but I had no right to tell him to take it off.

We also don't know what dress code was enacted for the event. It could have been 'wear what you want'. My feeling currently is: not a flattering shirt that isn't right for a big event but not something to flatly accuse someone of being sexist.

[korvys]

Telling him he needs to stop wearing it would be overstepping, yes. But telling him how you feel about it, and letting him decide if that's the impression he wants to give would not be. Whether it bothers you enough to be worth it, is up to you.

There may have been a good reason for the scientist to be wearing that shirt, but that doesn't change that it might offend someone. And if it does, there's nothing wrong with them telling him so, and letting him decide what to do. And low and behold, that's what happened, and he apologised. Everything happened the way it should.

[Deedles]

I don't really think there is anything wrong with the shirt, nor do I think that he shouldn't wear it, my problem lies in the fact that for the occasion that he wore the short for he really shouldn't of. He should of dressed more professionally.