Feminism general thread

Drop by and talk about anything you want. This is where all cheese-related discussions should go
User avatar
Metcarfre
Posts: 13676
Joined: 08 Jul 2008, 13:52
First Video: Not Applicable
Location: Vancouver, B.C.

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Metcarfre » 26 Jan 2015, 15:05

But then it's actually doubly funny because every neckbearded basement dweller imagines themselves an erudite, chivalrous beefcake.
*
User avatar
Master Gunner
Defending us from The Dutch!
Posts: 19383
Joined: 29 Oct 2006, 12:19
First Video: How To Talk Like A Pirate
Location: In Limbo.
Contact:

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Master Gunner » 26 Jan 2015, 15:09

mariomario42 wrote:Comics should be funny or tell a story, and in the rare case educational like Oh Joy Sex Toy, but this is comes off as a soap box.


Resoundingly disagree. Comics are a medium, to be used however the author wishes. Outside of very specific cases, we make no arbitrary restrictions on what television, movies, books, theatre, or music are allowed to say - why should comics be any different?

If Dan wants to use his comic as a soap box on occasion, it's his choice. If we find that he's doing it too often and the comic doesn't appeal to us anymore, it's our choice to leave. Neither of us is beholden to the other.
TheRocket wrote:Apparently the crotch area could not contain the badonkadonk area.
Twitter | Click here to join the Desert Bus Community Chat.
mariomario42
Posts: 177
Joined: 03 Jun 2013, 13:35
First Video: Omnilingual

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby mariomario42 » 26 Jan 2015, 17:58

Master Gunner wrote:So to fight people dismissing the comic as a strawman argument, he inverted the character as much as possible for the second - hence the Fabio-esque appearance and flowery language. This was done to clearly separate the point he was trying to make from the character making it.


The strawman does have a basic level of physical, but more importantly it fails at the argument being made. Going on what the comic shows (which is all the argument can be taken as), the man hates feminism because... it's misguided? dumb? Assumptions can be made then based on the shown physical temperance and the rest of the strawman, but in no way does this fairly show the person's side.

Master Gunner wrote:
Resoundingly disagree. Comics are a medium, to be used however the author wishes. Outside of very specific cases, we make no arbitrary restrictions on what television, movies, books, theatre, or music are allowed to say - why should comics be any different?

If Dan wants to use his comic as a soap box on occasion, it's his choice. If we find that he's doing it too often and the comic doesn't appeal to us anymore, it's our choice to leave. Neither of us is beholden to the other.



Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

You can survive solely on creamy mash potatoes, that doesn't mean you should.

You can make a podcast for the deaf, that doesn't mean you should.

You can use Microsoft Paint to make a presentation, that doesn't mean you should.

Powerpoint is how you should make a presentation, and presenting an argument on politics should include facts, graphs, polls and research. This is a large part of the flaw above. Three panels doesn't allow any fact or reasoning to show, and often results in oversimplification or strawmen/misrepresentation.
User avatar
Deedles
Posts: 4043
Joined: 29 Nov 2010, 13:19
First Video: Man Cooking
Location: A shoebox on Kashyyyk.
Contact:

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Deedles » 26 Jan 2015, 18:07

I fail to see how your comparisons fit the case of Dan drawing his own comic about the things and in the way that he wants to. If he wants to have a soapbox moment with his comic then it's well within his rights to. If you find that bad or detrimental then that's your opinion, which is fine, but right it looks to me as if you're painting what you you think about it as fact.

That the comic used feminism as an example of colliding opinions wasn't the point, the point is that if someone messages/emails Dan because they disagree with something he said or did and don't even have the decency to speak to him politely then he's not going to spend some of his finite time on reading that message/email. He doesn't even attack the legitimacy of what someone says, just that if you can't speak to him in any other manner than rude then he's not going to spend time reading it.
Hurp-De-Durp!
User avatar
Master Gunner
Defending us from The Dutch!
Posts: 19383
Joined: 29 Oct 2006, 12:19
First Video: How To Talk Like A Pirate
Location: In Limbo.
Contact:

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Master Gunner » 26 Jan 2015, 18:18

mariomario42 wrote:
Master Gunner wrote:So to fight people dismissing the comic as a strawman argument, he inverted the character as much as possible for the second - hence the Fabio-esque appearance and flowery language. This was done to clearly separate the point he was trying to make from the character making it.


The strawman does have a basic level of physical, but more importantly it fails at the argument being made. Going on what the comic shows (which is all the argument can be taken as), the man hates feminism because... it's misguided? dumb? Assumptions can be made then based on the shown physical temperance and the rest of the strawman, but in no way does this fairly show the person's side.


Why he hates feminism is irrelevant. The whole point of the comic is how one presents their point of view.
TheRocket wrote:Apparently the crotch area could not contain the badonkadonk area.
Twitter | Click here to join the Desert Bus Community Chat.
mariomario42
Posts: 177
Joined: 03 Jun 2013, 13:35
First Video: Omnilingual

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby mariomario42 » 26 Jan 2015, 18:41

Deedles wrote:I fail to see how your comparisons fit the case of Dan drawing his own comic about the things and in the way that he wants to. If he wants to have a soapbox moment with his comic then it's well within his rights to. If you find that bad or detrimental then that's your opinion, which is fine, but right it looks to me as if you're painting what you you think about it as fact.


I'm saying there's a better way to talk about politics.

Deedles wrote:That the comic used feminism as an example of colliding opinions wasn't the point, the point is that if someone messages/emails Dan because they disagree with something he said or did and don't even have the decency to speak to him politely then he's not going to spend some of his finite time on reading that message/email. He doesn't even attack the legitimacy of what someone says, just that if you can't speak to him in any other manner than rude then he's not going to spend time reading it.


Still a misrepresentation. The presented comic resulted in a poorly supported point while dragging in a completely different subject into it. That's the best case scenario with the strawman being unintentional. Like I said in a previous post, there is a better way to get the final panel across.


Master Gunner wrote:The whole point of the comic is how one presents their point of view.


Absolutely agree. The author shows their point of view in a poorly constructed way, and deserves the criticism on their comic. Pretty meta if you ask me.
User avatar
Deedles
Posts: 4043
Joined: 29 Nov 2010, 13:19
First Video: Man Cooking
Location: A shoebox on Kashyyyk.
Contact:

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Deedles » 26 Jan 2015, 18:44

mariomario42 wrote:I'm saying there's a better way to talk about politics.


Funnily enough that is the point of the comic.
Hurp-De-Durp!
User avatar
Valkyrie-Lemons
Posts: 1204
Joined: 23 Nov 2012, 09:09
First Video: Spoken Word
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Valkyrie-Lemons » 26 Jan 2015, 18:45

Let's put this another way:

Responding to a misogynist by saying something like "Your comment shows nothing by hate for women, which is ironic because you live in your mother's basement," is more likely to go and make them ignore your point (especially if you add many profane words) then if you simply say "I think your comment is demeaning to women, and I would like you to stop."

It's nothing actually to do with what the comic is saying, or what viewpoint it is espousing, rather that when you disagree with someone...don't be a dink about it.
Prospero101 wrote:...is it weird that I REALLY hope that someday I say something memorable enough to be quoted in someone else's signature?


I'm trying this 'Twitter' thing, if you just want to send a message/question/joke, please send it to: @Valkyrie_Lemons , thanks!
User avatar
Metcarfre
Posts: 13676
Joined: 08 Jul 2008, 13:52
First Video: Not Applicable
Location: Vancouver, B.C.

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Metcarfre » 27 Jan 2015, 07:12

I wish someone could find this for me...

Floating across Twitter yesterday was an image, I think from some old movie, that had a guy in a women's bathroom with two women. They were at the mirror, and he was exasperatedly pointing at the tampon dispenser and saying "Hey! We don't get a candy machine!"

The subtitle was, "How I basically view MRAs"

I thought it was pretty great, if anybody spots it let me know.
*
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby korvys » 27 Jan 2015, 14:10

"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
Avistew
Posts: 2593
Joined: 12 Sep 2011, 18:34
First Video: Can't remember
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Avistew » 27 Jan 2015, 15:14

korvys wrote:As someone who doesn't read the comics, it seems to be the exact opposite view. By showing 2 people with different appearances holding the same views, and being treat the same, you show it's not the appearance that matters.

Overweight stereotypical nerd type guy holds shitty anti-feminist views, and is arrogant enough to think they need to educate the other person on why feminism is bad. Puts in a lot of condescending effort, and is ignored in less than a second. Works for me.

Now a "good" looking guy has the same thing happen. The second comic seems to be saying "No, I'm not mocking you (reader) if you're overweight, I'm mocking you if you hold shitty anti-feminist views (and are a jerk about explaining them to people), regardless of your appearance"


Actually... as I was saying in my previous post, what you are describing (attractive person has the same views, same thing happens) is what I was expecting at first glance. But definitely not what I read. He does not have the same views. He's not an angry bigot. He's more educated, more respectful, and although he's being pretentious, he seems like the kind of person you can have a reasonable discussion with and who will care about female rights. Hell, he sounds to me like some people who insist on calling themselves egalitarian rather than feminist while having pretty much the same views as someone who calls themselves a feminist.

It would have been easy enough to keep all the dialogue exactly the same, which has been done before. But that wasn't the point of the redone comic. The point of the redone comic was to change what the guy was saying so that he was less aggressive, less bigoted and less of a strawman. The appearance was changed to match the new views. Because the views were more evolved, the appearance was made "more evolved" too (see the commentary). In other words, Dan pretty much specifically made "the outside match the inside".
Check out my webcomic, The Meddlers! (Currently not updating)
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby korvys » 27 Jan 2015, 15:36

I made a mistake in my first reading. I thought he was poking fun at anti-feminist types, but it seems like it's more about how they present their belief.

In both cases, the first impression they give was the subject line "Sorry to burst your bubble". That is the only thing the character sees before dismissing it, regardless of how the email writer appears, or how well constructed their argument, or how genuinely nice they are.

Perhaps the feminist part muddies the water a bit, distracting from the point. I seem to have misread it due to that. I'm guessing that subject might have been chosen as a common thing a condescending jerk might have written a snarky email about.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
Metcarfre
Posts: 13676
Joined: 08 Jul 2008, 13:52
First Video: Not Applicable
Location: Vancouver, B.C.

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Metcarfre » 27 Jan 2015, 19:28

korvys wrote:https://twitter.com/mrshankIy/status/559407636647788544

I remember because I retweeted it.

Who's awesome? You're awesome.
*
SteveLostAndAlone
Posts: 1
Joined: 27 Jan 2015, 21:43
First Video: OG Commodore Hustle

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby SteveLostAndAlone » 27 Jan 2015, 21:51

I'm a relatively active member of the community, however for reasons I'd rather not get into, I've decided to keep anonymity for this post. I am for the equal rights for all, but I feel alienated by being a "Steve" I made a tumblr post to explain my view, not necessarily of my opinions, moreso of what my feelings result in an internet context. I figured linking to it would be better than posting my wall of text, but if mods disagree, I can copypaste it.

http://steve-lostandalone DOT tumblr DOT com/post/109370347671/being-a-steve-in-a-post-steve-world-how-taking
JustAName
Posts: 7669
Joined: 30 Mar 2010, 21:08
First Video: Rapidfire I
Location: The Land of Unbearably Fashionable People and Lots of Cars

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby JustAName » 27 Jan 2015, 22:23

I'm afraid this line, "First, generalizing all Steves as the enemy will catch just as many people doing their best to be accepting as those who are truly enemies to your cause." still reads like a "not all men" argument.

Steves are Steves because they are video game characters. Nobody is that truly one-dimensional. You are not a Steve.

Your accomplishments are not lessened by your privilege. Your accomplishments are impressive. Others' accomplishments might be made MORE impressive by their lack of privilege. That is not the same thing.

You say that protagonists find you repulsive. This is just as generalizing as saying that all cishetwhiteguys are Steves.

Look, at the heart of it, I understand you're feeling lost and alone. It really sucks to feel like you have some part in a power imbalance that you don't endorse. What can you do about that? You can work to address that imbalance. That's really all there is to it. It's unpleasant to feel that people might judge you prematurely because you belong to a more powerful segment of the population, but (and I know this doesn't really feel nice to hear) it is, ultimately, better for you than the racist/sexist/etc assumptions that get leveled against "the protagonists" all the time.

It's going to feel uncomfortable. For a while. That's how it goes. What do you do about it? You prove your worth to the people around you. You prove your value to the individuals whose lives you influence, the people who actually know you. The people who are going to cast aspersions based on a superficial reading of you? They're assholes. They might be justified in their assholery on some level, but they're still assholes. As my (admittedly assholish himself) Asian Religions professor said, "Don't take what I say personally. Take it seriously, but not personally."

Do not take cishetwhiteman comments personally. Take them seriously, because they can reveal problems that our society still needs to work on, but do not take them personally.

Instead, make sure you are the best you that you can be to the people who are in your life. That's how you stop being a Steve.
Alja-Markir wrote:Andy is the LRR Heart-throb.
Morgan is the LRR Crotch-throb.


And all I can do is read a book to stay awake. And it rips my life away, but it's a great escape.

Image
User avatar
Tycherin
Posts: 835
Joined: 30 Mar 2011, 13:27
First Video: The Lich King's New Wrath
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Tycherin » 27 Jan 2015, 22:31

Fayili wrote:Do not take cishetwhiteman comments personally. Take them seriously, because they can reveal problems that our society still needs to work on, but do not take them personally.

I like this. I miiight just steal it for future use.
User avatar
Deedles
Posts: 4043
Joined: 29 Nov 2010, 13:19
First Video: Man Cooking
Location: A shoebox on Kashyyyk.
Contact:

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Deedles » 27 Jan 2015, 22:42

I read through the text, Steve, and was pondering on how to put my my thoughts into text, but then came Fayili and did it for me, in a far better manner than I could.
Hurp-De-Durp!
User avatar
AdmiralMemo
Posts: 7337
Joined: 27 Nov 2011, 18:29
First Video: Unskippable: Eternal Sonata
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
Contact:

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby AdmiralMemo » 28 Jan 2015, 00:12

Also, I feel that you have misinterpreted Alex's initial argument, as well. The problem is not that Steves exist and we don't want them. The problem is that there are too many Steves, and some people who make games (and other media) can't break from having Steve and only Steve as the protagonist. Note how he relates it to going to every meal and being served a heaping plate of saltines.

There is nothing wrong with saltines. Saltines are a good and tasty food. Saltines are not the problem. But having just saltines all the time is the problem.

If there was a consortium of game developers and they said "From this point forward, no more Steves ever." that would be bad. Steve brings a valuable insight into a way of looking at the world. The world would be poorer off without Steve. But Steve shouldn't be the only way to look at the world.

Suffice to say, Steve is not the enemy. Trying to say Steve is the enemy is like trying to point out which drop of water is responsible for a tsunami's devastation. It's not going to happen, because drops of water are not a problem, and they are quite helpful, in the right amounts.
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

Image
User avatar
Valkyrie-Lemons
Posts: 1204
Joined: 23 Nov 2012, 09:09
First Video: Spoken Word
Location: Oxford, UK

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Valkyrie-Lemons » 28 Jan 2015, 05:06

Also, the Steve debate is not strictly a feminist debate; it is, as Memo has said, an argument against having the same type of character in almost every video game. The whole feminist argument comes in when you say "Instead of a Steve, can't we have a Stepheny* instead?", since there is a whole lot of Steves and very few Stephenys*.




*Likely spelt wrong
Prospero101 wrote:...is it weird that I REALLY hope that someday I say something memorable enough to be quoted in someone else's signature?


I'm trying this 'Twitter' thing, if you just want to send a message/question/joke, please send it to: @Valkyrie_Lemons , thanks!
User avatar
Rikadyn
Posts: 1228
Joined: 25 Nov 2009, 11:49
First Video: the pub
Location: K-zoo Michigan

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Rikadyn » 28 Jan 2015, 05:32

Stephanie usually
the heart knows no greater tragedy than a breath that begins in love and ends in grief...
User avatar
Elomin Sha
Posts: 15773
Joined: 22 Feb 2008, 05:14
First Video: Max Effect
Location: Woodford Green, England
Contact:

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Elomin Sha » 28 Jan 2015, 06:01

Example: Stephanie McMahon.
The most unique, nicest, and confusing individual you will get to know. Don't be stupid around me, that's my job.
https://displate.com/elominsha/galleries
If you need art, I take commissions, PM me.
User avatar
Bebop Man
Posts: 4465
Joined: 22 May 2013, 22:55
First Video: The Pirate Video
Location: The Black Lodge

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Bebop Man » 28 Jan 2015, 06:13

My aunt is called Stephanie, or its German variant.
Image
User avatar
korvys
Posts: 2112
Joined: 29 Apr 2013, 14:48
First Video: Zero Punctuation: X-Blades/Halo Wars
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby korvys » 28 Jan 2015, 15:31

As others have said, Steve's defining feature is not his white-maleness, but his omnipresence.
"Why does Sonic chill like dawgs?" - Graham
"Causation. Still a leading cause of correlation"" - Oglaf

Google+ / Twitter / Mastodon
keybase.io
User avatar
Avistew
Posts: 2593
Joined: 12 Sep 2011, 18:34
First Video: Can't remember
Location: Oregon, USA

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Avistew » 28 Jan 2015, 19:03

Now another name-related ratio that is about feminism is the Dave ratio of a company. The companies my husband has worked for all knew their Dave ratios (and they weren't good). The Dave ratio, for those who don't know, is the ratio of how many guys named Dave work for the company for every female (of any name at all).

So, if the ratio is say, 3, that means for every woman working at the company, there are 3 guys named Dave also working at the company.

The idea being that since, although Dave is a common name, not every male is named Dave, the ratio really should never even be 1. However in gaming companies it usually is higher than 1. It usually has a better shock value than a "mere" ratio between male and female employees.

And again, the solution is not "let's not hire people named Dave".
Check out my webcomic, The Meddlers! (Currently not updating)
User avatar
Tycherin
Posts: 835
Joined: 30 Mar 2011, 13:27
First Video: The Lich King's New Wrath
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Feminism general thread

Postby Tycherin » 28 Jan 2015, 22:54

Avistew, I like that test in theory. Unfortunately, in practice that sounds like the Bechdel test: something made specifically to make me lose faith in humanity over just how many people completely miss the point of it.

Return to “General Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 12 guests