Feminism general thread

[korvys]

Pretty much what I expected, really. Perhaps I'm just playing arm-chair psychologist, but I read his refusal to answer the questions at the end as "I don't actually know why I do this, as I refuse to be introspective for fear of what I might figure out."

I may also be projecting...

[Makaylastalks]

Im pretty new around here but I saw this topic but wanted to wait till I found the time to read through the entire thing before saying anything.

Please bare with me because I am neither the brightest person or a good at communicating but this is something that actually means a lot to me.

As a fairly young trans woman who has just recently started actively transitioning it was really hard for me to find my place in this conversation. I can say feminism is necessary. I can also say that it is so hard to see how much privilege one has as a man without living as a woman. Coming out has truly opened my eyes to social issues. Gender plays way to heavy a roll in modern society and I feel it is a concept that needs to be redone. Most modern conversations in feminism I hear don't even mention non binary genders and I think that is missing a big chunk of the conversation there. Just my thoughts.

[Arclight_Dynamo]

I agree entirely, Makaylastalks. Gender isn't binary. And some feminist modes of thinking are terribly exclusionary and, yes, bigoted when it comes to trans people.

That needs to change.

[korvys]

Randi Harper is my hero:

http://randi.io/wp/archives/86
http://randi.io/wp/archives/91

Plus pretty much everything she deals with all day every day: https://twitter.com/freebsdgirl

[Metcarfre]

Good talk on the Matt Taylor sexy-ladies-shirt-business;

http://putthison.com/post/102726785913/kudos-to-this-guy-really-earlier-this-week-we

[Valkyrie-Lemons]

So I've been thinking about my stance on feminism, and I wrote this as an articulation of my stance. I'd appreciate it if y'all took a look and maybe give some thoughts/feedback. Also, please read it all fully first before judging the title.

I've collapsed it because it is kind of long.

Click to Expand

Why I’m not a feminist, and why I don’t think feminism should exist.

-isms, Realism, Liberalism, Neo-Institutionalism, Marxism etc. are positions of ideology that are not irrefutable, nor the ultimate truth. You are debating an ideological position, even if you are staunchly dogmatic, you are not extolling an idea that has no defenceable ‘other’. Liberalism is an idea which has been adopted by most of the Western nations, but it has flaws and there are alternative positions, such as Marxism that are equally as valid, even if they are not as widely practiced.

Because of this ‘-isms’ are something that normally have an opposite, or many alterative positions on issues. This is why feminism is ultimately flawed; there is no alterative view or position regarding gender. I have never found a valid counter-argument regarding why women* should not be treated equitably to men. Feminists arguing for equal pay; what argument can be made that they should NOT be paid equally? Feminists arguing for more representation at CEO/COO level; what argument can be made that they should NOT be CEOs/COOs? Feminists asking why women are being harassed; what argument can be made that they SHOULD be harassed?

Feminism only exists in a broken, backwards, society. There is no debate on the status of women* as 100% equal to men, especially in a post-industrial society where machinery mostly eliminates the arguable greater physical strength that men possess (although I’m probably evidence that this isn’t true). Men and women are only separated by biology; not by beliefs, dreams, hopes, desires, sins, intelligence, love, loss, depression, humanity, nor ideology.

Society for too long has segregated men and women in a near apartheid way. Giving benefits to one in an unjustifiable way and exacerbating the difference in order to maintain the system. There is no such thing as a ‘feminine’ way to view the world, nor is there a ‘masculine’ way to view the world, there is only the ‘human’ way to view the world.

Currently, women* are different from men, but this is not the way it should be. This is a result of a long, long, history of being told they are different (and in nearly all cases inferior) to men. I may not have experienced enough of this world, but I have yet to be convinced that there is a difference between men and women* that is not a result of society telling them that this should be the case. “That’s not very ladylike job,” is not a valid argument, it’s backwash from an outdated system that I hope one day we will move out from.

I conceded that this piece may make me seem like a staunch feminist, and maybe I am by normal definitions, but the fact that I maybe viewed as a feminist encapsulates what is wrong with society. These are not views of a feminist; these are views of any rational human being.

I am not a feminist, because I don’t believe there is any debate to be had.
I am not a feminist, because I don’t believe I am different from a woman*.
I am not a feminist, because I am a rational human being.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.


------
*Or any other genders if you don’t agree with a gender binary.

[Shandi]

Super neat, Valkyrie-Lemons. I think your artfully written stance has a lot to contribute, especially in helping people re-frame and refocus a sometimes otherwise tired debate.

Currently, women* are different from men, but this is not the way it should be. This is a result of a long, long, history of being told they are different

Yes. This. Where else is a rule with so many exceptions treated as such a valid framework? There are enough social men and muscular women, for instance, for us to stop being hung up on assigning attributes based on sex, other than just plain sex, which doesn't mean much in the grand scheme.

I gather that some people don't run afoul of gender norms, or they have found these societal boundaries enriching in some way. Those people may not realize that isn't the case for all, nor perhaps even a majority. The fact is gender norms feel completely arbitrary, restrictive, and detrimental to many. When we get away from assigning difference, we may find we have equity by virtue of true diversity.

[korvys]

I'm not sure I understand. You're saying you don't need a label because all of the things that Feminists believe can be assumed to be believed by any rational person?

[Valkyrie-Lemons]

I'm not sure I understand. You're saying you don't need a label because all of the things that Feminists believe can be assumed to be believed by any rational person?

In a way, yes.

What most feminists argue for is simply to be treated with equality, I don't see why you have to make an argument (or counter-argument) for this to be the case. It's seems pretty obvious, at least to me, that women should be treated equally. What is so radical about what most feminists want?

Therefore I don't see why I should need to call myself a feminist to correct the inequality that most women face in day to day life.

[korvys]

I'm still not sure I understand your conclusion. To me, saying "There's nothing radical about Feminism" leads to the conclusion "So I have no reason NOT to call myself one".

Additionally, saying that "we shouldn't need feminism" (which is true) is not the same as saying "we don't need feminism".

[Elomin Sha]

Am I a cynical/jaded person if I'm thinking, it's just a shirt?
It's a hideous one at that. I've seen some of the twitter comments, are people really saying bad wardrobe ruins one of the most important space events in our lifetime: Landing a dishwasher on a 2.5 mile wide hunk of rock travelling at 80,000mph, 3,000,000 miles away and they have found organic matter on it?
Kudos for the guy for apologising but he's had a big milestone in his career kind of ruined by it.

Serious question: was it borderline bullying for people on twitter and media websites to jump on him like that?

[My pseudonym is Ix]

As a counterpoint, I would suggest one further -ism that doesn't particularly refer to a refutable argument- activism. Or, if you want another one, environmentalism; hardly anybody on earth will disagree that, where possible, we should try to preserve the environment, allow animals and plants to survive and all in all not screw up the world, but we're still struggling with that one to a colossal extent. To be an environmentalist doesn't mean you agree in these things- it means you agree and care enough to try and do something about it.

Point being, feminism refers to a lot more than simple ideology.

[korvys]

Am I a cynical/jaded person if I'm thinking, it's just a shirt?
It's a hideous one at that. I've seen some of the twitter comments, are people really saying bad wardrobe ruins one of the most important space events in our lifetime: Landing a dishwasher on a 2.5 mile wide hunk of rock travelling at 80,000mph, 3,000,000 miles away and they have found organic matter on it?
Kudos for the guy for apologising but he's had a big milestone in his career kind of ruined by it.

Serious question: was it borderline bullying for people on twitter and media websites to jump on him like that?

It is just a shirt, but it's more about what it says about the culture around that man. Is the culture in STEM such that that shirt is considered a good one for a professional setting? Then how bad is it normally? There's an ongoing discussion being had in the world about how unwelcoming STEM jobs are to women already, and this isn't reflecting well.

Maybe this is just a bad call on the part of the guy, and maybe an overreaction, but I don't think a reaction of some kind was wrong.

[Elomin Sha]

Maybe this is just a bad call on the part of the guy, and maybe an overreaction, but I don't think a reaction of some kind was wrong.

But a reaction that had someone cry?

[korvys]

Probably not, hence the earlier part of the sentence saying "maybe an overreaction"

[JackSlack]

Yeah, I'm kind of with you, Elomin Sha. While I agree it was inappropriate and a bad call, it strikes me as the kind of thing that merited a private response with him, and have NASA itself make a public response. Maybe include a written apology from him.

That said, we don't know what happened behind the scenes. It's very possible he himself asked for the chance to make this apology!

[Elomin Sha]

Not sure if this is true so take it with a pinch of salt: some comments have said the shirt was a gift from the owner's wife at the tattoo parlour he goes to.
Wild speculation: he could have thought it may be nice to show off the gift as a thank you to her.
It all depends.

Maybe someone did think there could have been something wrong with the shirt but what's more important a billion dollar mission or a $20 shirt?
The way I work things out is very technically minded so to me it doesn't add up.

[JustAName]

But that's the thing, Elomin. There will always be something more impressive, or something that seems like it is moving humanity forward... but if women are being left behind, it's not worth it. It's just not.

[korvys]

what's more important a billion dollar mission or a $20 shirt systematic lack of women in science and technology jobs due to a unwelcoming environment?

Sure, I'll agree that dumping the entire weight of a decades long problem in STEM on one guy is unfair, but it's not just "a $20 shirt".

[Valkyrie-Lemons]

I'm still not sure I understand your conclusion. To me, saying "There's nothing radical about Feminism" leads to the conclusion "So I have no reason NOT to call myself one".

Additionally, saying that "we shouldn't need feminism" (which is true) is not the same as saying "we don't need feminism".

When you create an -ism, you are arguing a standpoint in which there is a counter-argument.

To me, there is no argument over the equality of women. It is something so basic that there is no debate to be had.

By calling ourselves feminists, we are creating a space for those who, for some bizarre reason don't think women should be equal, a space to argue. When I ask why a women is being paid less for the same job, I'm not doing it as a feminist, I'm doing it as a human being concerned for the unfairness my fellow human is being subjected to. I don't need to be a feminist to witness and be outraged by the inequality and harassment that women face; can I not feel those emotions, and do something about it, as just a human?

Feminism is not a standpoint, it's an indictment on a system which is broken and unjustly segregates men and women, and gives one precedent over the other.

I don't think that women should be treated equally. I know for a fact that they should be treated equally.

As a counterpoint, I would suggest one further -ism that doesn't particularly refer to a refutable argument- activism. Or, if you want another one, environmentalism; hardly anybody on earth will disagree that, where possible, we should try to preserve the environment, allow animals and plants to survive and all in all not screw up the world, but we're still struggling with that one to a colossal extent. To be an environmentalist doesn't mean you agree in these things- it means you agree and care enough to try and do something about it.

Point being, feminism refers to a lot more than simple ideology.

Activism, isn't an -ism (even though it has an -ism in it) as it's not an ideology, it is more of a verb. Activists don't argue for activism, they argue for something through activism. If that makes sense?

For environmentalism you are able to argue the case of growth (such as building houses) over environmental protection. Is the protection and well being of our species more important than others? Without the heavy pollution of the industrial revolution, would we have ever created green alternatives? Are greener alternatives actually more damaging to the environment (lithium batteries in electric cars for example)? Can humans adapt no matter what climate change brings? If so, is climate change a real threat? Etc.

Basically, it is a debatable subject.


You can't argue that a women is not equitable to a man. Nor that women think in a fundamentally different way from men. Nor that the differences between men and women, which is mostly biological, effects the way they act as rational actors.

Therefore, why do we need feminism? To remind us of basic rights that we should unequivocally give to women?

We need to enact the equity that women are entitled to as members of the human race, not debate it.



Anyway...I'm probably rambling on now. So sorry for that. : )

[korvys]

You can't argue that a women is not equitable to a man.

And yet, people do.

And more importantly than that, they act on their beliefs that that is correct.

Therefore, why do we need feminism? To remind us of basic rights that we should unequivocally give to women?

Yes. Because some people don't understand this.

[JackSlack]

Sure, I'll agree that dumping the entire weight of a decades long problem in STEM on one guy is unfair, but it's not just "a $20 shirt".

Yeah, that. Also feels relevant.

[Valkyrie-Lemons]

You can't argue that a women is not equitable to a man.

And yet, people do.

And more importantly than that, they act on their beliefs that that is correct.

Therefore, why do we need feminism? To remind us of basic rights that we should unequivocally give to women?

Yes. Because some people don't understand this.

If someone thinks the world is flat, it neither means they are correct nor should be taken seriously.

[korvys]

[Elomin Sha]

No woman should be left behind at all, since the suffragettes things have come a long way and more still needs to be done in the West and in other countries.
A role model is needed to get in there to entice women to join in.
Smarter people than me would have to have a better idea.

After reading Jack Slack's link, for all the bad that has gone on in India recently it's good to see that there space agency is more progressive