Ferguson

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mariomario42
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Re: Ferguson

Postby mariomario42 » 19 Aug 2014, 18:40

NY Post posted this article in the afternoon

“And then Michael just bum-rushes him and shoves him back into his car. Punches him in the face and then Darren grabs for his gun. Michael grabbed for the gun. At one point he got the gun entirely turned against his hip. And he shoves it away. And the gun goes off,” Josie said.

“Well, then Michael takes off and gets to be about 35 feet away. And Darren’s first protocol is to pursue. So he stands up and yells, ‘Freeze!’ Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him … And then all the sudden he just started bum-rushing him. He just started coming at him full speed,” she told the station.

“So [Wilson] really thinks [Brown] was on something, because he just kept coming. It was unbelievable. And so he finally ended up, the final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two to three feet in front of the officer,” she said.

An autopsy performed by the St. Louis County medical examiner determined Brown had marijuana in his system when he was shot.



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Re: Ferguson

Postby JustAName » 19 Aug 2014, 18:48

Marijuana doesn't make people act like that. And the shot went through the top of his head and through his collarbone. Shooting at the head of someone who were rushing you would not result in this: "One of the bullets shattered Mr. Brown’s right eye, traveled through his face, exited his jaw and re-entered his collarbone."
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Re: Ferguson

Postby betsytheripper » 19 Aug 2014, 19:27

My first response to that article is, "What a sensationalist piece of trash."

My second, more thought out response is this: The source of that depiction of events is dubious at best. The friend of the girlfriend of the officer in question, so at minimum this story has gone through two people. Plus, the citation of "police sources" claiming a dozen corroborating witnesses, to me, seems highly suspect, especially in light of all the actions taken by the Ferguson PD in the last week.

I'd also like to agree with Fay, here, marijuana doesn't do that to someone. Though anecdotal, I've never seen or heard of someone who was high on marijuana being angry or aggressive. On that point, a quick Google search lead me to this well-cited page which shows that marijuana can be detected in the blood well after the high has faded, even for first time users. So even though he had marijuana in is system, and even if it did make people aggressive, it's very likely was not even under its influence at the time, without more details.

Generally, I still think that article is sensationalist trash, clearly ignoring many other facts and viewpoints, to sell to a specific (white, middle class) audience.
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empath
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Re: Ferguson

Postby empath » 19 Aug 2014, 19:29

...actually, if someone is rushing at you - charging you - and you shoot at them, a head shot WILL take the path you mentioned; did Micheal play football, perchance?


But no, marijuana doesn't do that. I think Michael might have been attempting to tackle the shooter and got shot in the top of his head, but the rest of the story doesn't make any sense, even with the influence of THC.


And yeah, the Missouri governor needs to actually DO something about the state of emergency he's already declared and replace Ferguson PD with the state police.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby JustAName » 19 Aug 2014, 19:39

No, he apparently refused to play because he was too mild-mannered. Take that with however much salt you want, but he didn't play.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Metcarfre » 19 Aug 2014, 19:43

I think more important than a few scattered quotes here and there, the actual case can and will be resolved in due time (likely no time soon), but not likely to anyone's satisfaction (the American justice system being what it is).

This thing has clearly spun out of control from what precipitated it, and it needs to be resolved a) peacefully and b) with due respect for citizens Constitutional rights. The Ferguson police have found themselves woefully inadequate on both counts.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby King Kool » 19 Aug 2014, 19:49

Marijuana doesn't make you act like that, but on the other hand, someone( I think it was Tim Heidecker) was stabbed by his young neighbor because he freaked out. I believe the kid scored some marijuana that was laced with PCP, and that's what really did it.

Of course, this is pure conjecture. I hate when jackasses who don't understand drugs are still trapped in Reefer Madness, but... it's not impossible. I'm sure a toxicology test during the autopsy would show if there was anything like that in his system. (Is that why people think/know he was "high?" or is even that conjecture?)
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mariomario42
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Re: Ferguson

Postby mariomario42 » 19 Aug 2014, 19:56

Fayili wrote:Marijuana doesn't make people act like that. And the shot went through the top of his head and through his collarbone. Shooting at the head of someone who were rushing you would not result in this: "One of the bullets shattered Mr. Brown’s right eye, traveled through his face, exited his jaw and re-entered his collarbone."


As with all the replies since linking the article, i agree, marijuana doesn't make people act like that, but is a pain killer. Meaning someone bum-rushing over 30 feet could take multiple bullets to the arm and still move.

... I don't see any alternative to getting a bullet through the eye following the path unless his head was down, but still looking at the officer. It's an odd position to have your head at unless you're running.

Wait, what are people thinking happened right before and during the bullets being fired? Does it actually differ from the quoted story?
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Re: Ferguson

Postby JustAName » 19 Aug 2014, 20:07

I'm thinking the story heard from at least five eyewitnesses is true. http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2014/08/_5_eyewitness_accounts_of_michael_brown_s_shooting.html
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Metcarfre » 19 Aug 2014, 20:16

mariomario42 wrote:
Fayili wrote:Marijuana doesn't make people act like that. And the shot went through the top of his head and through his collarbone. Shooting at the head of someone who were rushing you would not result in this: "One of the bullets shattered Mr. Brown’s right eye, traveled through his face, exited his jaw and re-entered his collarbone."


As with all the replies since linking the article, i agree, marijuana doesn't make people act like that, but is a pain killer. Meaning someone bum-rushing over 30 feet could take multiple bullets to the arm and still move.

Anyone can run for some time after being shot in the extremities; it's quite common, and marijuana would have had nothing to do with it.

... I don't see any alternative to getting a bullet through the eye following the path unless his head was down, but still looking at the officer. It's an odd position to have your head at unless you're running.


Or, say, the person was falling down from being shot multiple times. Or that the bullet ricocheted and made an odd transit - another extremely common occurrence.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby CSt » 20 Aug 2014, 01:09

Metcarfre wrote:I think more important than a few scattered quotes here and there, the actual case can and will be resolved in due time (likely no time soon), but not likely to anyone's satisfaction (the American justice system being what it is).


Once you have an "eyewitness" quoted from his Twitter-posts you have seriously lost your "legitimate news" credentials. I didn't even read the article from the New York Post because apparently it's crap and because eyewitnesses suck. All of them. Not their fault, but they do.
And I agree, there needs to be an investigation (not duelling press conferences) and after that (if the results make it necessary) a trial. It will not be satisfying, but you can't blame the justice system for that, it's just one of those situations:
If the police officer did act culpable the punishment will not be satisfying for the large number of people who see him as a cold blooded racist killer. At the same time the conservatives and ultraconservatives will see him as a sacrificial lamb thrown to the braying mob.
If there would be actual evidence that would exonerate him, then the protesters will dismiss it as fabricated and dismiss it. So far they have done the same with everything that doesn't fit in their ideal. The right will slam everybody for not supporting an officer of the peace working hard every day to protect the innocent citizens of these their United States.
So, no winners in that one. No wonder the usual suspects are keeping quiet about the whole situation.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Rikadyn » 20 Aug 2014, 05:02

the heart knows no greater tragedy than a breath that begins in love and ends in grief...
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Lord Hosk » 20 Aug 2014, 05:03

Reports I have heard from at least 5 witnesses prior to this tell the story "Michael brown was standing with his hands raised in surrender when the first shots were fired," some reports say he was on the ground some reports say he was falling when the second set of shots were fired.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby empath » 20 Aug 2014, 05:13

...and that's another circumstance where a bullet is likely to enter through the top of the head and drill down through the body.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Lord Hosk » 20 Aug 2014, 05:34

Obviously we dont know all the details and likely never will know exactly what happened, but reports the day after the incident seem to be in line with the autopsy reports that were released a week after the incident. This friend of a friend now comes out with a story that could explain the wounds while making the officer justified. I find such a report hard to believe.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby plummeting_sloth » 20 Aug 2014, 05:47

In this case, as in so many others, there seems to be pitifully little attention made to the claim that an unarmed black person would apparently decide they are in an action movie and thus capable of rushing and disarming someone that has their firearm visible and, in many cases, ready for action. Are we to believe they are suicidal? That they don't understand how guns work? That they're in some sort of rage state and beyond all reason? So many people that seem to be in the police's corner profess that an armed society is a polite society... except apparently in the case of black people who apparently will charge at a gun like a mindless savage.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby CSt » 20 Aug 2014, 06:26

... and fundraiser for the cop. With this gem from a supporter:

In Connecticut, we support Officer Wilson. His fast and heroic response is admired by many with life experience. An unfortunate outcome but clearly not initiated by the hand of the law enforcement officer. What's also truly amazing and graceful is that Police Officers knowingly take on the social burden of protecting all of us by placing their own lives on the line daily. Who will advocate for their safety and rights to protect themselves? The media? The mobs of angry illiterates who burn down their own communties? The shiftless, unemployable, drug dealing murdering thieves who infest these communities? Without these brave men and women in blue, who would take on such a daunting task? G-d bless Officer Wilson for his service. All with common sense know that he had no other choice than to protect himself and others. It's truly a shame that he must endure this horrible response from many.


Gave him 100 $.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Elomin Sha » 20 Aug 2014, 07:03

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Re: Ferguson

Postby empath » 20 Aug 2014, 07:23

Well, following the 'an armed society is a polite society' - if Matthew had been legally carrying, I'm sure he'd be alive today, since the Blue Man wouldn't have felt so confident that he could exert his control over a lesser 'human being' with impunity...


Let's be clear, I have the utmost respect for law enforcers...and these bullies with badges do anything but. If they want to consider themselves 'a people apart' due to their exclusive membership in an organization, they're just going to have to put up with the contempt and derision they earn from their elitist "Us vs. Them" behaviour.

If you have already made your mind up to relegate me to the category of "enemy", then I have nothing to lose in BEING your enemy...



ADDENDUM: Something to think about -

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[img]♫...for the land of the 'free'
and the home of the brave!♫[/img]
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Rikadyn
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Rikadyn » 20 Aug 2014, 07:49

the heart knows no greater tragedy than a breath that begins in love and ends in grief...
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Rikadyn » 20 Aug 2014, 08:11

empath wrote:


ADDENDUM: Something to think about -

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[img]♫...for the land of the 'free'
and the home of the brave!♫[/img]


Hmmm...I could work without leaving the country in the future...interesting (as I doubt this will be the only time this happens ever.)
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Re: Ferguson

Postby ch3m1kal » 20 Aug 2014, 08:45

That article about not challenging cops made me think a bit, so I did some research and I found some disturbing (to me) statistics.

In the US, the police shoot and kill far more people than in any other supposedly civilized place on the planet.
According to the FBI, around 400 people are killed every year by police officers in the US. LINK

Also according to the FBI, in 2011, 72 police officers were killed in the line of duty, with another 53 dead to accidents while on the job. Some other sources place this number higher, at around 150-170 dead, but this is the only official source I could find. LINK

Meanwhile, in 2013 in Canada only 6 police officers were killed in the line of duty, and only 2 of them due to outside violence (1 shooting and 1 vehicular assault). LINK

I haven't been able to find an official source for people killed by police in Canada, but Wikipedia at least, lists only 2 for the entire year of 2013.

In the UK, there were only 3 incidents of firearms use by police, and no fatalities. LINK
Meanwhile 11 police officers were killed while on duty in the UK last year, none were shot, most were involved in car accidents. LINK

I've found similar stats for Germany, but I can't quote official sources because I can't really read German.

Now sure the population of the USA is larger than any of those countries, but even if you put them together you do not get 1/10th of what the US statistics say.

I'm not entirely sure what the conclusion here could be, but what is certain is that there are far more victims of violent crime, on both sides of the law in the US. I'm no sociologist but I'm pretty sure that says something about some deep rooted issues.
Or perhaps there is just some aspect of how the police operate in the US that is prone to escalating violence.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby ElFuzzy » 20 Aug 2014, 09:01

I'm reminded of Yahtzee's quote during one of the COD reviews. It was something along the lines of the US being akin to a teenage girl who wants to get plowed by the Russian neighbor. 'Cept instead of sex it was war.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Metcarfre » 20 Aug 2014, 09:13

Nobody actually knows how many people police in the US kill, but it's likely much higher than the much-repeated 400 figure.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Rikadyn » 20 Aug 2014, 09:15

The Criminalization of Everyday Life

In other news OSU's campus cops have an MRAP... :|
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