Ferguson

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CSt
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Re: Ferguson

Postby CSt » 20 Aug 2014, 09:20

ch3m1kal wrote:I've found similar stats for Germany, but I can't quote official sources because I can't really read German.


This PDF is a presentation by one of the leading experts in Germany. The relevant pages are 2 (police officers killed) and 3 (persons killed by police officers). The uppermost column shows cases researched by him and his staff (he is a professor) the column beneath shows the official number. The number for 2014 is current as of the 17th of August. In 2013 there were 8 people killed with no police fatalities.

According to the FBI, around 400 people are killed every year by police officers in the US. LINK


That number is highly suspicious and being questioned by statisticians.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-many-americans-the-police-kill-each-year/

And while we're at it:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/police-in-england-and-wales-went-two-years-without-fatally-shooting-someone/

Edit: Sorry Metcarfre didn't see the link in your post.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Metcarfre » 20 Aug 2014, 10:01

Rikadyn wrote:In other news OSU's campus cops have an MRAP... :|

Obviously you guys need to invest in better mines/IEDs. Step your game up.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Rikadyn » 20 Aug 2014, 10:36

Metcarfre wrote:
Rikadyn wrote:In other news OSU's campus cops have an MRAP... :|

Obviously you guys need to invest in better mines/IEDs. Step your game up.


Well seeing as, I hate osu, will do.
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AdmiralMemo
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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 24 Nov 2014, 22:24

So Ferguson is in an uproar again...

Because, of course, the correct response to a judicial decision you don't agree with is to loot and burn the whole town... [/sarcasm]
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Matt
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Matt » 24 Nov 2014, 23:46

Won't someone think of the poor inanimate objects being killed in the streets!?
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 24 Nov 2014, 23:47

1) The protesters are not rioting or looting. They were fired upon by police anyway.

2) Those who were violent are not affiliated with the peaceful protesters, though the police are making no distinctions.

3) The grand jury decision is... well:

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. attorneys prosecuted 162,000 federal cases in 2010, the most recent year for which we have data. Grand juries declined to return an indictment in 11 of them.


Source

That's around 0.007% of grand juries resulting in no indictment. There is almost always an indictment. Why isn't there one here? Given the racial tensions of this case, the racial tensions of the area, and the racial tensions of the US generally... I'm going to go ahead and say it's because of racism. This was an unjust outcome.

4) Because there was no indictment, the facts of the case will never be heard. The evidence will never come out and be tested. Because this will never go to trial, where facts and truth are determined. Further injustice.

5) I believe your country was founded on the notion that one does not need to abide by an unjust law. In fact, I believe that your country was founded on the notion that people, facing such injustice, are entitled to push back.

So I think I'll need to disagree with your view, Memo.
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AdmiralMemo
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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 25 Nov 2014, 00:03

Matt wrote:Won't someone think of the poor inanimate objects being killed in the streets!?
Inanimate objects like the Little Caesar's restaurant that was engulfed in flames? Do we know if anyone was in it at the time? I don't. (Likely not, but still, I don't know for sure.) Even if it is just an inanimate object, that restaurant was likely the livelihood of many people, people who were unaffiliated with either party in the case. How is burning it down going to help anything? Aren't they simply hurting their fellow neighbors by doing this?
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Re: Ferguson

Postby korvys » 25 Nov 2014, 00:11

I will refer you to Arclight_Dynamo's 1st and 2nd points.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Jamfalcon » 25 Nov 2014, 00:24

The way I see it, what's the downside to taking it to court*? I haven't followed all the details about who has claimed what exactly happened. But I do know that it's far from certain that no crime was committed, given the reactions of people who have paid close attention. So why let this be one of the tiny number of cases that doesn't move forward?

*Other than time and money. Of course a trial would take those, but that isn't a deterrent in any other major case, so it shouldn't be here.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Matt » 25 Nov 2014, 00:29

Whether the protesters are specifically the ones rioting or not, I think the question of why we should condemn the rioting is worth talking about in and of itself.

This goes far beyond rioting in "response to a judicial decision you don't agree with". This is a community that, rightly or wrongly (probably rightly, though, if we're being honest) believes that they are under threat from the very people whose responsibility it is to protect them.

It has been demonstrated to them, at least from their perspective, that the police value the property of the town over the lives of the people. It has been demonstrated to them, that the police can kill an unarmed teenager and face no consequences. It has been demonstrated to them that the legal system will not take a killer to trial for his actions, but will roll the National Guard into town to stop people from exercising their right to protest. It has been demonstrated to them that the police are not there to protect them, that the police are unconcerned with their constitutional rights, that the police are an actively hostile occupying force. It has been demonstrated to them that the levels of government above the local police force are at worst supportive of this situation, in most cases totally indifferent to it, and are at best, merely incapable of doing anything to rectify it.

This is a community that sees itself as badly betrayed by the society to which it belongs, and which faces a clear and life threatening double-standard with regard to how they are treated under the law.

Under those circumstances, what is there left for them to do? to whom do they turn? What is the "correct response" when literally no one has your back? How responsible are we willing to hold them for lashing out in this case?


For my part, I'm not really interested in condemning some property destruction - a kid died unnecessarily. I'm far more interested in trying to figure out why society is so willing to let that happen.

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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 25 Nov 2014, 00:31

Why? Because the prosecution didn't do a good enough job in presenting their evidence to the grand jury. You want to lay blame for this? Lay it on Robert McCulloch. He was the one who even delayed/prevented it from going to trial in the first place. He had the capability to bypass grand jury altogether and set up trial directly. He chose not to.

Edit: This was in response to Jam, not Matt.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby korvys » 25 Nov 2014, 00:36

AdmiralMemo wrote:Edit: This was in response to Jam, not Matt.
Well I think Matt's post makes a pretty good pre-emptive response to yours.

When the guy who is suppose to hold the cops accountable won't, then what can you do?
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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 25 Nov 2014, 00:42

You have a point, but I don't believe that the answer is to go after people who are unrelated to the issue.

I'm just wondering how many people will die due to these riots. A man (not a "kid") died unnecessarily, I agree. But will the people that die from these riots be "necessary" deaths? How do you define a "necessary" death, anyway?
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Re: Ferguson

Postby korvys » 25 Nov 2014, 00:49

Possible future people dying? Which people are those?
The ones from Amnesty International being tear-gassed by the police?
The ones being shot with rubber bullets while helping the injured?

In the first 2 weeks after Michael Brown died, there was violence every night except one. The one where the police presence was the lowest. Where the cops were weren't already lining up as the sun set, wearing full riot gear, and pointing weapons at non-violent protesters.

The deaths of anyone involved lay at the feet of the Ferguson PD.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Matt » 25 Nov 2014, 00:54

AdmiralMemo wrote:go after people who are unrelated to the issue.


PEOPLE are not being gone after. Property is being damaged. Civil unrest has been sparked. (and sparked by repeated, and oppressive police actions over the course of three months, incidentally). This has nothing to do with the people who own this property, except maybe to the the extent that they also represent a system that failed the citizenry.

AdmiralMemo wrote:I'm just wondering how many people will die due to these riots.


If any, it is virtually guaranteed that they will also die at the hands of the police (or national guard), based, if nothing else, on the inequality of force on display.

AdmiralMemo wrote:A man (not a "kid") died unnecessarily, I agree.


Let's be abundantly clear about this. Michael Brown was 18 years old. He was a teenager. I'm disinclined to describe him as a "child" but he was certainly not an adult, either. I'm 31 years old - he was a kid.

AdmiralMemo wrote:But will the people that die from these riots be "necessary" deaths? How do you define a "necessary" death, anyway?


I'm not even sure what you're getting at here - I certainly think that any further loss of life in this case would be deeply unfortunate.

I also think that if we're going to empower the police to take life we ought to hold them to a very high standard of necessity for doing so. We probably also ought to send every case of police shootings to civilian trial as a matter of process.

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Re: Ferguson

Postby Jamfalcon » 25 Nov 2014, 01:00

It's late and my brain is too fried to form any sort of coherent post that, so I'll just say: I agree with Matt, Korvys, and Arclight. This seems exactly like the sort of situation that calls for a protest. Of course I hope nobody is hurt, and the less property that's damage the better for everyone. But that doesn't mean everyone should accept the grand jury's decision and just leave it be from here on out.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Rikadyn » 25 Nov 2014, 03:28

the heart knows no greater tragedy than a breath that begins in love and ends in grief...
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Re: Ferguson

Postby korvys » 25 Nov 2014, 04:08

That is an excellent read, Rikadyn.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Rikadyn » 25 Nov 2014, 04:24

for slightly broader reads I'd recommend

Revolution in Reverse by David Graeber
How non-violence protects the state by Peter Gelderloos
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Amake » 25 Nov 2014, 04:56

I guess in the future we're going to be able to count how many people died before change happened and say exactly that number was necessary deaths because, as it turned out, in actual reality, that many had to die for change to happen. In an ideal world we should be able to change our minds before that, and in the future we're going to think we were really stupid since we clearly didn't even though we could. Right now no one needs to die before the state police or federal police takes over and kicks out the lynch-mob-in-uniform Ferguson police and instates something resembling rule of law. Or we begin reforming police procedures, especially procedures to deal with cops who kill people. Or something.

Sorry, reading back, that should have been "no one else needs to die". It's already too late for some. It's a question of how long we're going to sit and wait for the future to come to us. (Hint: It'a the protestors in Ferguson who're working on that.) I have hope it won't be a lot of lifetimes, but certainly at least a few more.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Darkflame » 25 Nov 2014, 05:04

I think its worth reposting the Browns family tweet;
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Momentum seems to be building on the bodycam idea. While it wouldn't prevent all police killings, it would certainly make the aftermath more clear what happened, and harder for any individual cops to cover things up.
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And, yes, of course stats should be kept on how many police kill each year. Theres no excuse for that information not to be there. We have stats on everything - its absence is clearly deliberate because those that would have to record it dont want people to know.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Metcarfre » 25 Nov 2014, 07:23

Just a reminder; this is what my city looked like when we lost the Stanley Cup Finals;

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...or the other time we lost the Stanley Cup;

Image

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Frankly, I find it patently absurd that any American would criticize the response in Ferguson. You are a nation entirely founded on the violent overthrow of oppressors through revolution. The right and duty of a citizen to be the final guard against totalitarianism is engrained in your constitution. Hell, your anthem celebrates stickin' it to the Brits.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 25 Nov 2014, 08:13

Darkflame: The body cams are an excellent idea. I can think of two incidents involving police in Toronto where they were filmed by bystanders and, as a result, went to trial for excessive violence. Had there been no footage, they likely would not have been tried. If every cop had a camera on them, that would make the likelihood of catching wrongful action much higher.

Though, of course, there needs to be a way to ensure that they just don't turn the things off, the way that they will obscure their badge numbers despite being legally obliged not to.

Metcarfre: Exactly.

Edit: Also, here's a thing - why did they announce the decision of the grand jury at night? Surely they knew that would mean an increased likelihood of violence. Had they wanted to avoid inflaming things and provoking a riot, they would have announced during the day. As it is, though, they delayed until after dark.

It's almost like the intention was to provoke, in order to draw attention away from the injustice of the decision by being able to point at a flaming Little Caesar's.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 25 Nov 2014, 09:07

Matt wrote:
AdmiralMemo wrote:go after people who are unrelated to the issue.
PEOPLE are not being gone after. Property is being damaged. Civil unrest has been sparked. (and sparked by repeated, and oppressive police actions over the course of three months, incidentally). This has nothing to do with the people who own this property, except maybe to the the extent that they also represent a system that failed the citizenry.
So, if something like this were to have happened in Vancouver instead of Ferguson, I'm assuming that you would be perfectly OK with someone burning down your house in the name of protesting. Goodbye game collection. Goodbye Transformers. All in the name of... I'm not even sure what.
Matt wrote:
AdmiralMemo wrote:A man (not a "kid") died unnecessarily, I agree.
Let's be abundantly clear about this. Michael Brown was 18 years old. He was a teenager. I'm disinclined to describe him as a "child" but he was certainly not an adult, either. I'm 31 years old - he was a kid.
Yes, he was 18. He was legally an adult. He could have voted. He could have enlisted in the armed services. Had things turned out differently, he would have been tried as an adult for his robbery of the store. "Kid" and "child" are the same thing. There's no difference. I'm not even sure why you're bringing your own age into this. Are you saying that anyone younger than you is a "kid" perchance? That would make you a "kid" to me, since I'm 32. Should I treat you as a "kid"?
Matt wrote:I also think that if we're going to empower the police to take life we ought to hold them to a very high standard of necessity for doing so. We probably also ought to send every case of police shootings to civilian trial as a matter of process.
That, I do agree with, which is why I said that Robert McCulloch was the one who really is to blame for most of this.
Amake wrote:Right now no one needs to die before the state police or federal police takes over and kicks out the lynch-mob-in-uniform Ferguson police and instates something resembling rule of law. Or we begin reforming police procedures, especially procedures to deal with cops who kill people. Or something.
This is something I'll also agree with.
Darkflame wrote:Momentum seems to be building on the bodycam idea. While it wouldn't prevent all police killings, it would certainly make the aftermath more clear what happened, and harder for any individual cops to cover things up.
I've been supportive of the bodycam idea long before I'd ever heard of the name "Ferguson."
Metcarfre wrote:Just a reminder; this is what my city looked like when we lost the Stanley Cup Finals;

[pictures]

...or the other time we lost the Stanley Cup;

[pictures]

Frankly, I find it patently absurd that any American would criticize the response in Ferguson. You are a nation entirely founded on the violent overthrow of oppressors through revolution. The right and duty of a citizen to be the final guard against totalitarianism is engrained in your constitution. Hell, your anthem celebrates stickin' it to the Brits.
So, you're telling me that arson and violence are the "correct" response to losing a sporting match? I find that dubious at best.

Regarding violent overthrow of oppressors, yes. That happened. We "stuck it" to the Brits.
In this analogy, it would be OK to fight the police and National Guard. It would be OK to trash police cars, the police station, the courthouse, etc. That is completely different from torching the place of business of some people who are just trying to make a living.

Violence can be like a knife. Targeted violence can be a scalpel that removes a problem. Random violence would be just slashing someone up. I am pretty sure no one was cured of a tumor when someone just slashed them open at random.
Arclight_Dynamo wrote:Though, of course, there needs to be a way to ensure that they just don't turn the things off, the way that they will obscure their badge numbers despite being legally obliged not to.
I'm thinking the only way to turn them off would be a hardware dongle that's back at the station, under secure circumstances.

Also, it's possible for them to just cover the lens up so it can't film. It's not perfect, clearly.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 25 Nov 2014, 09:41

AdmiralMemo wrote:So, if something like this were to have happened in Vancouver instead of Ferguson, I'm assuming that you would be perfectly OK with someone burning down your house in the name of protesting. Goodbye game collection. Goodbye Transformers. All in the name of... I'm not even sure what.


A) False equivalence. No one's house has been burnt down. A place of business has.
B) The people engaging in violence are not the same people as the peaceful protesters.
C) In the name of what? In the name of ending systemic racism in the United States. Put yourself in these peoples' shoes; have a little empathy. They're angry. And justifiably so, I think. They have been denied every other means of pushing back. Does that excuse violence? No, at least not always. But it does make it understandable.

Yes, he was 18. He was legally an adult. He could have voted. He could have enlisted in the armed services. Had things turned out differently, he would have been tried as an adult for his robbery of the store. "Kid" and "child" are the same thing. There's no difference. I'm not even sure why you're bringing your own age into this. Are you saying that anyone younger than you is a "kid" perchance? That would make you a "kid" to me, since I'm 32. Should I treat you as a "kid"?


A) There is serious question as to whether Mike Brown stole anything, or whether that was a story made up after the fact to justify his shooting. Source
B) What does this alleged robbery have to do with anything? He was still shot multiple times and killed while unarmed.
C) "Kid" and "child" often do not mean the same thing. Perhaps that's a quirk of the difference between Canadian and American idiom, but I've understood "kid," when applied to someone like Brown, to mean "young person, in the 15-25 range." It implies youth, a certain naïveté, and a future. It is a different category from "full adult."

That, I do agree with, which is why I said that Robert McCulloch was the one who really is to blame for most of this.


I'd blame the system as a whole, frankly, as well as American society. To point to one man when the entire thing is rotten is disingenuous. There are serious issues of systemic racism in play, here.

So, you're telling me that arson and violence are the "correct" response to losing a sporting match? I find that dubious at best.


That's not what he's saying. What he's saying, I believe, is threefold:

A) When white people riot over stupid things, there's nowhere near the level of police response that we're seeing in Ferguson. Ask yourself why.
B) When white people riot over stupid things, the media don't go apeshit about it. The story is "stupid people being stupid," not "dangerous people attempting to destroy all peace." Again, ask yourself why.
C) That tendency of the media has the knock-on effect of completely steamrolling the peaceful protests and the actual message of those peaceful protests. Because the media do not report on those things. Ever. They only report on the violence, and reinforce the narrative that it's just looters and rioters out to make trouble. Which is a half-truth at best, and a deliberate falsehood at worst.

Regarding violent overthrow of oppressors, yes. That happened. We "stuck it" to the Brits.
In this analogy, it would be OK to fight the police and National Guard. It would be OK to trash police cars, the police station, the courthouse, etc. That is completely different from torching the place of business of some people who are just trying to make a living.


I think you have some deep misconceptions about the American Revolution. I'd encourage you, as a start, to educate yourself about the United Empire Loyalists. They were regular American citizens who opposed the Revolution. They were driven out of their homes and places of business, by force, by the revolutionaries. They came here to Canada (and to other parts of the empire) to escape that. Your revolution isn't as clean as you like to believe. Bad things were done. Things that you are explicitly condemning here. That's a bit hypocritical.

Edit:

I'm thinking the only way to turn them off would be a hardware dongle that's back at the station, under secure circumstances.

Also, it's possible for them to just cover the lens up so it can't film. It's not perfect, clearly.


The only way to ensure compliance is to make it an offence to do anything like that. And then actually have the courts enforce it. Ditto obscuring badge numbers. That's hard, sure, but I don't think the solution is technological; it needs to be legal.

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