Ferguson

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Matt
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Matt » 25 Nov 2014, 09:55

AdmiralMemo wrote:So, if something like this were to have happened in Vancouver instead of Ferguson, I'm assuming that you would be perfectly OK with someone burning down your house in the name of protesting. Goodbye game collection. Goodbye Transformers. All in the name of... I'm not even sure what.


Don't get me wrong. I love my stuff. If my stuff were burned or destroyed, I would be very upset.

But it's still just stuff.

In the eyes of the protestors this is a fight for survival. For acknowledgement that black lives matter. For acknowledgement that life is more valuable than stuff.


AdmiralMemo wrote:Yes, he was 18. He was legally an adult. He could have voted. He could have enlisted in the armed services. Had things turned out differently, he would have been tried as an adult for his robbery of the store. "Kid" and "child" are the same thing. There's no difference. I'm not even sure why you're bringing your own age into this. Are you saying that anyone younger than you is a "kid" perchance?[/b{ That would make [b]you a "kid" to me, since I'm 32. Should I treat you as a "kid"?


Regarding the bolded line: no. Obviously not. However. Michael brown was a little over half my age, and still a teenager. And I still remember what I was like at that age. And while, yes, I too was legally "an adult", I sure didn't feel like one, and I sure wouldn't call myself one in retrospect. That was the age I graduated from high school at.

I was a kid.

So was he.

AdmiralMemo wrote:That, I do agree with, which is why I said that Robert McCulloch was the one who really is to blame for most of this.


You're trying to place blame on an individual for a systemic problem. McCulloch is simply the most recent example of failure to serve the community, in a long line of failures to serve this community, and others like it, throughout the nation, and throughout modern history.

McCulloch will be chastised by the community for his failure (to the extent that the community has power to chastise him, of which they have little) but he isn't, and frankly shouldn't be the target of this outrage. He is a symptom. Not the disease.

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Re: Ferguson

Postby AlexanderDitto » 25 Nov 2014, 11:12

I would encourage people who are actually interested in this case to take a look at the released grand jury documents. [LINK]

After reading through several volumes, I find it unbelievable that the jury would think there was no case. There are numerous contradictions between the evidence found and testimony received from various parties.

I am not sure there is enough evidence to determine absolutely what happened one way or another, let alone to convict. But there is enough doubt that it's abundantly clear to me a trial was warranted. The Officer's testimony in particular contains numerous statements that have no evidence or witness testimony supporting them. Either he's lying, or nearly everyone else is.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 25 Nov 2014, 11:18

You're not alone in thinking that, AlexanderDitto. The National Bar Association agrees:

The National Bar Association is questioning how the Grand Jury, considering the evidence before them, could reach the conclusion that Darren Wilson should not be indicted and tried for the shooting death of Michael Brown. National Bar Association President Pamela J. Meanes expresses her sincere disappointment with the outcome of the Grand Jury’s decision but has made it abundantly clear that the National Bar Association stands firm and will be calling on the U.S. Department of Justice to pursue federal charges against officer Darren Wilson. “We will not rest until Michael Brown and his family has justice” states Pamela Meanes, President of the National Bar Association.


Those are actual lawyers and judges.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby MotorWaffle » 25 Nov 2014, 13:46

To be fair, it's not exactly his version versus one unanimous witness version. Impossibilities and inconsistencies abound in the witness testimony, including the impossible assertion that Brown was shot execution style in the back of his head while on his knees (page 80-130 of the Oct. 16 transcript). There were also witnesses that agreed with Willson's version of events. Several "witnesses" who spoke to the press (some surmised in the opening pages of the Nov. 21 transcripts) recanted their story or refused to give official testimony, going so far as to outright avoid officials looking to interview them.

I've been a reporter for a number of years now. Media interviews do strange things to people. Suspicions suddenly become facts and things they're unsure of immediately turn into certainty. It's bizarre, but it happens. Detectives stated that normal investigation procedures were impossible (Oct. 21 transcript) because of how quickly the scene turned into a media circus.

I don't know what happened, and at this point I doubt we'll find an unbiased witness who does. I'm all for putting cameras on police officers, but not because I think they're out of control maniacs who need supervised. I just want the unbiased footage.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Arclight_Dynamo » 25 Nov 2014, 13:50

No, we don't know what happened. Luckily, we have a mechanism for determining the facts in potentially criminal matters: a trial.

But we're not going to get one, so we'll never know.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby korvys » 25 Nov 2014, 15:05

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Re: Ferguson

Postby AlexanderDitto » 25 Nov 2014, 15:31

Even if you disregard other witness testimony entirely: there was a lot of evidence collected (and also evidence NOT found on the site) that makes me suspect the officer's version of events was not entirely accurate. The fleshy red bit on the outside of the car and the missing cigarillos, for example.

There's also the undisputed fact that a single officer chose to exit his vehicle (???) to pursue a suspect who was running away (who he claimed moments before made him fear for his life), with no backup, whose only known crime was possibly grabbing unsuccessfully at his gun.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Rikadyn » 26 Nov 2014, 05:22

the heart knows no greater tragedy than a breath that begins in love and ends in grief...
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Re: Ferguson

Postby MotorWaffle » 26 Nov 2014, 06:29

Grabbing at a police officer's firearm is still an incredibly serious offense, and it is exactly the policeman's job to get out of his car and pursue someone who does it. What, do you expect him to just let the guy walk away after trying to take his gun? That's not how the job works.

As for the missing cigarillos, there is little doubt that Brown at the very least assaulted the owner of the convenient store. There is video evidence that at the very least someone fitting Michael Brown's height, build and appearance committed the offense at the time in question.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Metcarfre » 26 Nov 2014, 07:04

I like how Michael Brown is presumed guilty without a trial whereas the officer is presumed innocent without a trial.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Elomin Sha » 26 Nov 2014, 07:22

Welcome to the wonderful world of double standards.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Metcarfre » 26 Nov 2014, 09:45

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Re: Ferguson

Postby AlexanderDitto » 26 Nov 2014, 11:38

MotorWaffle wrote:Grabbing at a police officer's firearm is still an incredibly serious offense, and it is exactly the policeman's job to get out of his car and pursue someone who does it. What, do you expect him to just let the guy walk away after trying to take his gun? That's not how the job works.


This is from Detroit, but it's worth considering: Directive 202.7-2 and 202.7-6.1.3

Foot pursuits are inherently dangerous police actions. An officer's decision to pursue on
foot shall be made with an awareness of the risk to which the officer and others will be
exposed. Officer and public safety are paramount considerations in all foot pursuits. No
officer or supervisor shall be criticized or disciplined for a decision not to engage in a foot
pursuit if, in the officer's assessment, the risk to any officer or citizen exceeds that which is
reasonably acceptable under the provisions of this and related departmental policies and
training.

...

An officer shall not initiate and/or continue a foot pursuit if acting alone (e.g., one
person unit). If exigent circumstances warrant, the lone officer shall keep the
suspect in sight from a safe distance and coordinate containment


Emphasis on the last part. In Detroit, officers are instructed not to initiate foot pursuit if acting alone. So no, foot pursuit is not always the appropriate course of action. It's not "a police officer's job" to act like a vigilante.

I feel like a lot of people (maybe you?) think the police are always supposed to act like they do on TV. They're not.

MotorWaffle wrote:As for the missing cigarillos, there is little doubt that Brown at the very least assaulted the owner of the convenient store. There is video evidence that at the very least someone fitting Michael Brown's height, build and appearance committed the offense at the time in question.


He has not and had not been convicted of that crime, nor is there any evidence the officer knew about that assault at the time. It's not even clear he knew about the theft. The Officer's testimony regarding his knowledge of the petty theft and the way the cigarillos were handled (the officer claims in his testimony that Brown punched him in the face with the hand that was holding the cigarillos, then transfered them to his left hand, then later turned and asked Johnson to hold the cigarillos) are not corroborated by any other eyewitnesses, and are, to be frank, very strange behavior for someone involved in a fight with a police officer. It's also remarkable that throughout the whole ordeal, not a single cigarillo was dropped; evidence didn't find any of them at the crime scene.

Again, I encourage you to read the court documents, especially volume 5. The case is not as straightforward as everyone is making it out to be.

---
Edit:

I did not know this, but apparently Wilson did not file a police report until 10 days after the incident (8/19), and the report that was filed was basically blank other than his name. Which... what?

Edit edit:

A Kansas University Journalism major did a better job than I did pointing out the large number of breeches of protocol that took place around the crime, with links to the source documents. http://kansasexposed.org/2014/11/29/ku-journalism-major-shreds-case-against-mike-brown/
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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 04 Mar 2015, 13:38

Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

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Re: Ferguson

Postby JustAName » 04 Mar 2015, 16:11

Fucking fuck.

And to top it off, I started to read the comments.

Fuck.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Elomin Sha » 04 Mar 2015, 16:20

I never read comments anymore.
At least it's quiet so far in Ferguson.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 04 Mar 2015, 21:14

Fayili wrote:And to top it off, I started to read the comments.
You brought THAT on yourself...
Graham wrote:The point is: Nyeh nyeh nyeh. I'm an old man.
LRRcast wrote:Paul: That does not answer that question at all.
James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Apr 2015, 01:09

Baltimore's turning into another Ferguson, with rioters harassing and destroying cars of people who are just trying to see the baseball game.

Here's a video of some of the stuff happening. Yeah, there's one idiot yelling crap throughout the whole video, but when the people start harassing the Subaru driver (who didn't do anything to antagonize anyone) at 1:30, things start to get out of control.

Edit: It got worse...
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Re: Ferguson

Postby korvys » 26 Apr 2015, 13:42

If you are more concerned with the reaction to an injustice than to that injustice itself, I don't know what to say.

Which I'm not saying you are, but you did post about the protest, and didn't post about a man dying in police custody.

EDIT, because I keep thinking about this:
The reality is that some people, based on the colour of their skin, are more likely to be killed by police than would be accounted for by either their proportion of the population, or of their proportion of crimes commited (a statistic that is already skewed due to an arrest and conviction rate that is similarly out of line). Some people would argue this is just the price of the police being able to do their jobs. I would say that this price is too high, but if those people insist it's fine, then I would argue that these protests are similarly the price of the police doing their job in the way they do it.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Apr 2015, 16:57

I did not post about the injustice because we don't have a good number the facts yet. They are still doing the investigation, and I'm not going to demonize anyone before we know what went on. All we know currently is that Gray was put into the police van and was not belted in. At the time he was arrested, he was already injured. The police took at least 3 corners at high speeds, and when they went to take him out of the van at the station, he was unresponsive, so they called the ambulance and took him to the hospital. This is police negligence, if anything, not police brutality (not that one is better than the other in any way, just to be clear).

You are putting out statistics. Well, while the US population might be only 13% Black, the fact that Baltimore is about 70% black should be factored into account regarding local issues. The fact that 68% of the incarcerated people in Baltimore are black (2010 census numbers) seems in balance with the local demographics to me. There may be skews in racial injustice in other places, regarding arrest rates, but not here.

My reaction was to the fact that we've had a week of peaceful protests, and that was fine. That was appropriate. Voices were raised, angers flared, but it was all in the name of justice for Freddie, and there was no violence. Then, at about 6:30 PM on Saturday, the riots started. Freddie's family pleaded with the rioters to stop, and when they wouldn't listen, they left and went home. How can you claim that this is about Freddie when his family is telling you to stop, and then eventually, just leaves? How is stealing from local food carts, kicking baseball fans in the head and leaving them bleeding on the streets, and vandalizing local businesses and cars going to help? And, why riot now? You had a whole week already. If you wanted a riot to mean anything, you should've done it right away. Then, it would come off as a reaction to injustice. But waiting a week? That just makes it pointless.

Also, my reaction is that, just a few days earlier, there was no protest or rioting regarding another man who died in police custody. Darrell Brown broke into a home while a woman and 4 girls were inside. Police surrounded the house, and when Brown wouldn't comply with giving up peacefully, they tasered him. They took him to the hospital and he died. So where are the protests regarding police brutality in that case? Where is the #DarrellBrown hastag? Why this reaction for Freddie, and nothing for Darrell?
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Re: Ferguson

Postby korvys » 26 Apr 2015, 17:42

Probably because that sounds like a reasonable use of a taser, in a scenario where the person was clearly a danger to others?

The thing I keep wondering about the protests is this: If you protest for a week, and nothing changes? Then what? What's your next step? And I don't mean that hypothetically, or to say that the correct answer is a riot. I really don't know.

If a member of your community wrongs you, you ask your government to step in. If an agent of the government wrongs you, and the government refuses to hold them accountable, then what? In theory the government is accountable to the community that put them in power, but people just don't seem to be motivated to call them to account.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Apr 2015, 18:06

korvys wrote:If a member of your community wrongs you, you ask your government to step in. If an agent of the government wrongs you, and the government refuses to hold them accountable, then what? In theory the government is accountable to the community that put them in power, but people just don't seem to be motivated to call them to account.
But... the fact is that the investigation is proceeding at a much more rapid pace than any previous similar investigation, and they even got help from other agencies to speed it along. The government is not "refusing to hold them accountable" at this time. The government is investigating what happened, and are trying to find out precisely who is responsible for what before holding anyone accountable. It would just be worse if the government would "hold someone accountable" right away, if they later found out that person was innocent. Once they know what happened, when, and by who, then the time for holding people accountable will commence.
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James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

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Re: Ferguson

Postby korvys » 26 Apr 2015, 18:28

Why did it take a protest to have someone investigate a practice that was so well known it had a name:
Image

So I find myself with an answer to the question "why are these people rioting?":
Because apparently that's what it takes to get someone to pay attention.

The people who are appalled at the rioters are justified in that, but should be just as appalled at the conditions that led up to this, and at themselves, that they have been ignoring (or at least, doing nothing about) the behaviour of the police, especially recently, apparently.

But they won't.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby AdmiralMemo » 26 Apr 2015, 18:48

So I'm guessing two wrongs do make a right? The police are terrible, so we can be, too? Thanks for letting me know I can just loot and vandalize whatever I want when the government creates injustice. Image

And, to be clear, I have nothing against the protest. I'm in full support of the protest. These issues with the police must stop.

I'm against the riots.
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James: Who cares about that question? That's a good answer.

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Re: Ferguson

Postby JustAName » 26 Apr 2015, 19:25

Given that every time there have been "riots" in the last year, it's been white people (and often undercover cops) inciting them...
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