What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

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mariomario42
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby mariomario42 » 31 Aug 2014, 21:23

JackSlack wrote:Edit again: Oh for fuck's sake.

Yes, yes there fucking is. Criminal action. Harassment. A felony. Inexcusable. But the word terrorism is a loaded fucking term, we liberals have given conservatives grief for their constant misuse of it and we don't get to do it now too.



This is the only thing I'm going to say in these matters because it is crystal clear. I'm sitting this round out and have not been posting in the threads addressing recent things.

If these threats are true (ie an statement of attack and not just a threatening tone of a message), this should be taken to the police. Simple as that.

EDIT: just notice you say she posted the messages, if you can link.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby King Kool » 31 Aug 2014, 21:26

Here's an observation I had a few days ago:

Someone tweeted an article that said most trolling would evaporate if they were forced to use their real name. To be fair, this is probably true.

However, if you've ever been logged into Facebook and made your way to IMDb and read an article, they have that comment section at the bottom. People say Youtube comments are the worst, but I think THESE are really the worst. It's just appalling what some people will say.

...these people aren't anonymous. They're real people. They're saying things with their real names right there.

They say trolls would be reduced if people had to use their real name. Trolls most often have two things: cruelty and anonymity. The trolls are the ones who say horrible things just to get a rise out of someone because they think making people angry is funny or something. Getting rid of the anonymity would mitigate this, and considering it doesn't contribute a damn thing, that's fine with me.

But these other commenters aren't anonymous, and their opinions are their real opinions. They're just cruel. I remember hearing some blogger talk about how he hoped the people who disagreed with him on a certain decision regarding children should (I was gonna type the horrible thing he said here, but I think we can all imagine it. Just think of something horrible and you'll be close.). This person wasn't anonymous, he invoked violence in his own name because he couldn't understand why people disagreed with him.

Cruelty is that thing we are all capable of when we are completely certain that what we believe is correct.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JackSlack » 31 Aug 2014, 21:34

mariomario42 wrote:EDIT: just notice you say she posted the messages, if you can link.


Different emails there. Sorry, didn't mean to confuse the issues. I'm assuming, given the situation, that she's not releasing the threatening emails as they'd constitute evidence in any criminal hearing. She did say she notified the police and moved out of her house temporarily.

The emails she released were less threatening, while still incredibly offensive.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JackSlack » 31 Aug 2014, 22:49

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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby King Kool » 01 Sep 2014, 08:27

Someone I follow on Twitter was mad at that Devin Faraci article, and encouraged their followers to mass-tweet one particular image of a few tweets that made a damning joke at him.

I no longer follow that person.

The behavior you participate in when you know you're correct, I think, is more important that actually being right.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby RedNightmare » 01 Sep 2014, 09:34

You know, I kind of liked Devin's article. He tried to reason why people are being so agressive about all these issues, using his own experience. And I think that is a totally fair way of doing is, seeing the only experiences we can draw from are our own.

I get why you might think it's taunting JackSlack, but I honestly can't think of a better way of engaging this issue. We can't really start a shouting match, because that would only cause everyone to get entrenched and make people who are on the fence side with the one they identify the most with (or more accurately against the one they identify the least with*). Plus it gets so messy

Should we ignore it, would that work? It would not give the signal that harrasment is wrong (I wish that was all we had to say, but then you get accused of not engaging the real subject, which apparently is corruption).

I feel that trying to understand the other side and explain where we are coming from is the best approach here. Maybe I am missing another option here, that could be possible.

I will say that both sides have their extremes and that they make it very hard to have a discussion, as TotalBiscuit noted in this blogpost. I don't agree with everything he says, but I feel he comes at it with noble intentions.


*This reminds me a lot about a subject we discussed in risk assessment communication, but I won't expand on that here, because many words, unless asked.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Lord Hosk » 01 Sep 2014, 10:47

This whole discussion seems to be focused on something that is a hideous undercurrent to most topics.

A or B

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99.9% of the time its not A Vrs B. I know its easier to think of things like that and to think that your opinion is somehow absolute but the reality is much more murky with a lot of facts not being put into play.

Some people are upset that Zoe Quinn's game got a lot of attention and sold a lot of copies. First of all why are you upset about that? Does it somehow hurt you that someone other than you spent money that wasn't yours on something you dont want?

Imagine if there was a flame war because the recent collectable Elvis plate got on Home Shopping Network so it sold hundreds of extra copies and the artist of of said plate had an affair with an executive at QVC. You read that and think its a silly scenario but its exactly the same thing, people you dont know did things that in no way effected your life. Now because we all love "games" this is a big deal to us somehow where as the plate scenario is silly, but to Elvis plate collectors the whole Zoe quinn thing is silly.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Matt » 01 Sep 2014, 11:06

Zoe Quinn's game was made available FOR FREE.

And it was also not reviewed by anyone she allegedly slept with.

(Something about facts not being in play).



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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JackSlack » 01 Sep 2014, 12:36

RedNightmare wrote:I get why you might think it's taunting JackSlack


I don't think it's taunting. I think it's presumptuous and condescending.

I've come to loathe twitter.

And I think we're losing the arguement.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby AdmiralMemo » 01 Sep 2014, 14:28

Matt wrote:Zoe Quinn's game ... was also not reviewed by anyone she allegedly slept with.
Which is probably why Hosk made the analogy that the plate was on HSC, while the person slept with was from QVC (a competitor, IIRC).
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Dubious_wolf » 02 Sep 2014, 17:47

Well I certainly didn't expect the level of reply. Sorry I haven't really participated, I was indisposed with retail work during the holiday....
anyway. I really enjoy all of the content here and it's really kept my attention.

At first I really wanted to focus on the harassment of Zoe Quinn. I'll admit I know very little of the specifics other than what I've gleaned from twitter.
But honestly the exact minutia of the topic is less than important. A lot of people have been acting pretty poorly and I've been introduced to a lot of the worst humanity has to offer, which has been pretty depressing.

so how do i change the eff-ing topic title? seriously no body cares about Adam freaking Baldwin...
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby AlexanderDitto » 02 Sep 2014, 18:27

Dubious_wolf wrote:so how do i change the eff-ing topic title? seriously no body cares about Adam freaking Baldwin...


You can just edit your first post. :)

---

mariomario42 wrote:If these threats are true (ie an statement of attack and not just a threatening tone of a message), this should be taken to the police. Simple as that.


From her twitter:









The reality of the situation seems to be that "the police" are either unwilling or unable to help in these sorts of situations. I would make some other rather uncharitable conjectures about local police departments, but for now I'll stop there. In short, "going to the police" often produces no results until after tangible harm has been done, unless your request gets to the FBI level.

Even then, chances are you're told to go home and live in fear until someone gets physically injured or your house burns down, something the police know how to handle.

---

JackSlack wrote:Yeah, I admit, the end result of all of this for me has been tremendous disillusionment with both sides. Frankly? I've seen a lot more mature discussion and actual attempts at engagement from the other side than mine. I've been unbelievably disappointed with our side of the fence.

Important edit: Of course, we've also seen the flatly criminal activity and the greatest BULLSHIT from their side as well, but...

Edit again: Oh for fuck's sake.

Yes, yes there fucking is. Criminal action. Harassment. A felony. Inexcusable. But the word terrorism is a loaded fucking term, we liberals have given conservatives grief for their constant misuse of it and we don't get to do it now too.

THIS IS NOT HELPING US.

The never ending war of self-doubt, mixed feelings and edits: And yes, of course Anita's suffering tremendously. I shouldn't be expecting perfection from her, and she's no doubt trying the best she can. I know.

But this is what I'm talking about. Faraci's taunting. Moviebob's gleeful jumping in on fat-shaming someone. Sarkeesian posting up unredacted emails, including email addresses, of edit again harassment to her. Even though the last one has a sense of justice to it, I know, the end result is we look bad. We're willfully lowering ourselves into the muck rather than standing over it on the cliffs and letting our opponents smash against the walls.

We are doing this so badly.


First, strictly speaking, what's happening to Sarkeesian is terrorism, "the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims." We're just used to state or religious terrorism, but any group that uses intimidation and terror in an attempt to influence politics is guilty of it. White people never get called terrorists because racism, of course.

Otherwise, I understand your frustration. It's tempting to think that perfectly rational, calm actors would somehow rise above the muck and prevail. The problem is that we're not on the cliffs; there are no cliffs. There's only muck. Of course, yes, Hosk's image is undoubtedly correct, there's a huge gradient of positions and the most extreme actors are the ones most vocal about their positions. But it's unclear that stoic, rational disengagement really does stamp out the problem. It seems to just sweep it under the rug, where it will continue to impact those most vulnerable. It's also a falacy to believe that the answer to everything always lies somewhere in the middle; sometimes, people are just wrong about things to which their prejudices blind them.

I would say that Sarkeesian has every right to post those email addresses. Keeping them secret does her no good. The high ground, here, is one that involves her continuing to endure near constant harassment.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Master Gunner » 02 Sep 2014, 18:41

From what I've heard about online harassment and threats in the past, law enforcement tends to ignore it/pass the buck around to different departments/agencies. The general response seems to be that until an "actionable offense" occurs (such as someone actually breaking into her house and trying to kill her in her sleep), law enforcement "can't do anything about it".

On the other side, dealing with threats that come from different states and countries is a legal clusterfuck to sort out, and no agency has the manpower to deal with all of the online harassment cases out there. For every Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn, dozens, if not hundreds, of people are harassed online on a daily basis. The justice system simply wasn't designed to deal with this level of harassment.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Dubious_wolf » 02 Sep 2014, 19:08

hey so what do you guys want the title to be?
Sorry for the upcoming double post.
Last edited by Dubious_wolf on 02 Sep 2014, 19:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Dubious_wolf » 02 Sep 2014, 19:09

Also....

as an edit I am looking for constructive criticism here. I'm a pretty open minded person and I value the LRR forums opinions.

I want to run something by you guys because it's really been a subject I've been dedicating a lot of mental space towards.
Manhood vs. boyhood.

So I’d like start by saying that men are not women and women are not men. It’s a simple fact of physiology.
As a result the way in which men and some “come of age” is vastly different. Women largely become women when their body dictates. When they can start having children they are women, this is still pretty well accepted in society.

For boy though it’s much different. Boys don’t become men, just because they get some facial hair and have some more testosterone. It’s apparent by the “man-child” paradigm that some men just aren’t.

I've noticed that a lot of the vitriol towards women in this topic AND SOCIETY IN GENERAL (this is much more far reaching than our tiny little sphere of "video games") comes from boys. Or rather men who still act like boys.

For much of human history men have had to pass "rites of initiation" or some other test to prove manhood to the society they are in, whether that was successfully hunting/surviving/fighting or what have you. Now in today's society these are largely done and gone because it's not necessary, we don't NEED all men to be warriors/hunters because those tasks have been specialized and given to an increasingly smaller subset of the population. So as we've become more civilized (in my opinion for the better) we've lost what marks the transition from boyhood to manhood.
This would be great IF society didn't also keep the pressures to become a man.
In a lot of ways society still demands that boys prove they are men, without any specific vehicle to “prove” oneself.

This will likely need a little bit of a disclaimer.
This opinion in no way excuses the bad behavior of anyone. Being a good human being and treating others with respect is something everyone needs to do. I feel that all boys can become men by reflecting and analyzing themselves and the people that they want to be. I know the conclusions I have reached have helped me to achieve the self image I want and has sort of been my own “rite of initiation”.
Nor is this some sort of plea to return to “traditional gender roles” (seriously I don’t think anyone would really want to return to the 50’s and 60’s that understood what those decades were truly like…)

This all being said, some people are lacking in mental processing power, and need help from A to B. This is where the “rite of initiation” and on a different axis, “positive male mentors” really work to help those of our population that don’t want to take the time for serious self reflection.

So what happens when boys who want to be men, don’t have an identifier to mark themselves as men? Well they make one up usually. They invent a definition of masculinity to fit their current self image. In this particular instance it’s video games. To this group, men play video games, women don’t, ergo I play video games to be a man. It’s ass backwards logic for sure but it fits their narrow world and gives them some amount of safety and security. This association hasn’t been challenged for a long time and has been allowed to reinforce itself for a while. This is very poisonous. As women push into video games more and more (for the endless benefit of all) it directly contradicts the definition of masculinity so many of these boys have invented for themselves. And since it’s threatened they lash out at the group they feel is the “problem”. This of course bears itself out as really ugly stuff.
Basically I think the prevalence of the “man-child” really is the root for a lot of problems in modern culture. And that the way to solve misogyny is to promote healthy masculine identities (which in my opinion looks like Captain America and Theodore Roosevelt. Neither of which would jump on social media and condemn women for wanting to play games and enjoy themselves.)

actually to refine the point, there are two ways to define Manhood, either as the opposite of womanhood, or (and more importantly) as the opposite of childhood. I think a lot of the males that lash out at women are choosing to define their "manhood" as the opposite of womanhood. Which is really unhealthy.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Matt » 02 Sep 2014, 19:46

Dubious_wolf wrote:So I’d like start by saying that men are not women and women are not men. It’s a simple fact of physiology.
As a result the way in which men and some “come of age” is vastly different. Women largely become women when their body dictates. When they can start having children they are women, this is still pretty well accepted in society.


I don't agree, at all, with this assertion, but I don't have the time to unpack why right now.

Just noting my exception.

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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Dubious_wolf » 02 Sep 2014, 19:50

Matt wrote:
Dubious_wolf wrote:So I’d like start by saying that men are not women and women are not men. It’s a simple fact of physiology.
As a result the way in which men and some “come of age” is vastly different. Women largely become women when their body dictates. When they can start having children they are women, this is still pretty well accepted in society.


I don't agree, at all, with this assertion, but I don't have the time to unpack why right now.

Just noting my exception.

-m


I really want to hear it because this is still something I'm actively grappling with.


and to be honest that felt like the weakest sentence when I was typing it...
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby korvys » 02 Sep 2014, 19:56

Dubious_wolf: That's a hell of a question, and something I'd be interested to read people's take on. I need to think on it a bit myself. I think the idea of a well-defined boundary between boy and man, or girl and woman, or child and adult in general might be a bit antiquated. It seems more like just a spectrum of maturity , or spectrums (physical, mental, emotional). Also, addressing it as child/adult is probably better, as it decouples maturity from masculinity/femininity, unless that's more the direction you want to explore.

There's a good comic on maturity.

Ditto: I just want to thank you for every post in this thread so far. I would call you the voice of reason, except that would imply other's weren't being reasonable, which isn't true (even if I disagree with some). Every post is clear and well thought out, and frankly, just a delight to read.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Dubious_wolf » 02 Sep 2014, 20:02

korvys wrote:Dubious_wolf: That's a hell of a question, and something I'd be interested to read people's take on. I need to think on it a bit myself. I think the idea of a well-defined boundary between boy and man, or girl and woman, or child and adult in general might be a bit antiquated. It seems more like just a spectrum of maturity , or spectrums (physical, mental, emotional). Also, addressing it as child/adult is probably better, as it decouples maturity from masculinity/femininity, unless that's more the direction you want to explore.

There's a good comic on maturity.

Ditto: I just want to thank you for every post in this thread so far. I would call you the voice of reason, except that would imply other's weren't being reasonable, which isn't true (even if I disagree with some). Every post is clear and well thought out, and frankly, just a delight to read.


I want to explore the question of masculinity because it seems intrinsic to the topic at hand.

and yes this is why I post here almost exclusively. We have an amazing community here and I can't promote the good merits of the forum enough.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JustAName » 02 Sep 2014, 20:02

Aside from all the rest of that, which I also have problems with... you consider 12-year-old girls to be women?
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Duckay » 02 Sep 2014, 20:07

The idea that the beginning of "womanhood" as opposed to childhood being when a woman can have a child is one I'm not really happy with either. Shall we define the ability to have a child as starting with the onset of menstruation? That puts the beginning of "womanhood" at the age of 10, perhaps. A person of age 10 cannot possibly be considered a mature adult (a ten year old can't have sex, drive, drink alcohol, or make political decisions - nor should they), so how then should we define it? At the cessation of puberty? That is ill-defined because not all people's bodies will readily show that they have finished the process of puberty. When they fall pregnant, at whatever age that is? Well, then a 14 year old who is pregnant is a woman and a 35 year old who has never been pregnant is still a child. When they're emotionally ready for motherhood? Well, what social forces have brought them to that point? And that's not even touching the fact that defining womanhood as when the individual can bear children excludes anyone who is infertile, lacks necessary reproductive parts, etc.

Basically I don't think girlhood to womanhood is as clearly defined as you're suggesting. There's a lot of other factors involved in the process of "adulthood" for women as well as men.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Dubious_wolf » 02 Sep 2014, 20:10

Fayili wrote:Aside from all the rest of that, which I also have problems with... you consider 12-year-old girls to be women?


Not in a maturity sense. But there isn't any discussion of girls have to "prove" being a woman.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Dubious_wolf » 02 Sep 2014, 20:12

Duckay wrote:The idea that the beginning of "womanhood" as opposed to childhood being when a woman can have a child is one I'm not really happy with either. Shall we define the ability to have a child as starting with the onset of menstruation? That puts the beginning of "womanhood" at the age of 10, perhaps. A person of age 10 cannot possibly be considered a mature adult (a ten year old can't have sex, drive, drink alcohol, or make political decisions - nor should they), so how then should we define it? At the cessation of puberty? That is ill-defined because not all people's bodies will readily show that they have finished the process of puberty. When they fall pregnant, at whatever age that is? Well, then a 14 year old who is pregnant is a woman and a 35 year old who has never been pregnant is still a child. When they're emotionally ready for motherhood? Well, what social forces have brought them to that point? And that's not even touching the fact that defining womanhood as when the individual can bear children excludes anyone who is infertile, lacks necessary reproductive parts, etc.

Basically I don't think girlhood to womanhood is as clearly defined as you're suggesting. There's a lot of other factors involved in the process of "adulthood" for women as well as men.



I did simplify yes. But if the definition between girl and woman is murky ,I think it is doubly so for boy and man.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JustAName » 02 Sep 2014, 20:13

Yeah, because society likes to infantilize women into girls, or vilify them. There's no winning. Being a woman is not seen as a desirable thing the way being a man is.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Dubious_wolf » 02 Sep 2014, 20:17

Fayili wrote:Yeah, because society likes to infantilize women into girls, or vilify them. There's no winning. Being a woman is not seen as a desirable thing the way being a man is.


That's actually really fair. I was too flippant.
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