What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

[jacetheSJW]

Stay tuned for more revelations though. A little birdie told me that some things are in the works.

[Matt]

Stay tuned for more revelations though. A little birdie told me that some things are in the works.

2spoopy4me

-m

[jacetheSJW]

The only way to defeat the social justice warriors that are influenced by people like SilverString is to keep #GamerGate. The signal has already been boosted and people are ready to fight against them. If the American gaming press won't cover such issues fairly we will continue our campaign against them.

I think that's ultimately the biggest difference between a lot of us though. Yes, we both think there's issues in gaming journalism that need to be addressed. But if the focus is on 'SJWs' and the like, we're not going to reach a concord, as we think that's an utter non-issue.

(And certainly, in previous issues that have been major problems, like Jeff Gerstmann and Dorito-gate, they weren't.)

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and the SJW clique that runs the gaming press now needs to go down.

And now we're firmly into conspiracy tone. Aw, man.

Dismissing a "conspiracy theory" when there is real evidence for it is illogical.

I know we probably won't reach on agreement on this. Our core beliefs are different.

[korvys]

It's not surprising that the gamegaters would be convinced by so little evidence, really, because they already assume that these people are corrupt.

If I said Tom, Dave and John have a mailing list, there's no issue. If I said that Charles Manson, Osama Bin Laden and the head of the IRA had a mailing list, that's cause for concern.

If you assume all these journalists are SJWs, Faminazis, (and those things are bad), and they're corrupt in general, it's not a huge leap to assume this mailing list is part of a conspiracy to push that.

They're wrong, but still.

[jacetheSJW]

It's not surprising that the gamegaters would be convinced by so little evidence, really, because they already assume that these people are corrupt.

If I said Tom, Dave and John have a mailing list, there's no issue. If I said that Charles Manson, Osama Bin Laden and the head of the IRA had a mailing list, that's cause for concern.

If you assume all these journalists are SJWs, Faminazis, (and those things are bad), and they're corrupt in general, it's not a huge leap to assume this mailing list is part of a conspiracy to push that.

They're wrong, but still.

Watch Sargon's video and tell me that there is no evidence.

[Duckay]

I think the correct comparison here is one Phlip touched on earlier: would a similar mailing list in any other industry (with no evidence of any misuse) be cause for concern?

What qualifies as misuse? As I said, the mere existence of such a list is unethical given how it can be abused and how easy it is to cross such lines.

I thoroughly disagree with you. Without evidence of abuse actually occurring, the possibility of abuse does not make something like this inherently unethical in my opinion. There are exceptions, but I consider it to be based on the likelihood of abuse, the consequences of abuse, and the potential positive uses - a journalism mailing list does not break that criteria. And so I say again, if there was a mailing list for another industry which it was theoretically possible to misuse (but with no evidence that anyone had done it), would that be a problem?

[jacetheSJW]

I think the correct comparison here is one Phlip touched on earlier: would a similar mailing list in any other industry (with no evidence of any misuse) be cause for concern?

What qualifies as misuse? As I said, the mere existence of such a list is unethical given how it can be abused and how easy it is to cross such lines.

I thoroughly disagree with you. Without evidence of abuse actually occurring, the possibility of abuse does not make something like this inherently unethical in my opinion. There are exceptions, but I consider it to be based on the likelihood of abuse, the consequences of abuse, and the potential positive uses - a journalism mailing list does not break that criteria. And so I say again, if there was a mailing list for another industry which it was theoretically possible to misuse (but with no evidence that anyone had done it), would that be a problem?

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's worth noting that a lot of ethical standards work this way though. Sure, a judge, could hear a case from against a company he used to work for and be unbiased. Does that mean that waiting for evidence of misconduct is better than requiring he recuse himself?

guess it's a where do we draw the line question

[JackSlack]

Watch Sargon's video and tell me that there is no evidence.

Just did. He cited nothing that wasn't in the Breitbart article and a few tweets of people dismissing it. I'm still at yellow flag, cautious but not yet prepared to call for action.

[Firbozz]

Is the video monetized? Because if it isn't, I may actually consider starting to watch it.
Regarding "artifically inflating the popularity of Quinn's game," Leigh Alexander wrote an excellent article on the do's and don't of dealing with on-line harassment (http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can- ... ne-sexism/). One thing she suggest is, rather than drawing attention to the harassment a person is unjustly receiving, celebrating their works and accomplishments. Of course, Leigh's a SJW, so you wouldn't agree with her anyways. I feel the beginning of this whole debacle would be a great time to review Depression Quest, to celebrate the work of someone who's being told "you don't belong here, leave."

[AdmiralMemo]

What qualifies as misuse? As I said, the mere existence of such a list is unethical given how it can be abused and how easy it is to cross such lines.

[sarcasm]Let's ban all knives, because they exist and can be unethically abused to stab people. People will cross the lines with them.[/sarcasm]
Until I see ACTUAL abuse, I'll hold judgment.

[jacetheSJW]

Watch Sargon's video and tell me that there is no evidence.

Just did. He cited nothing that wasn't in the Breitbart article and a few tweets of people dismissing it. I'm still at yellow flag, cautious but not yet prepared to call for action.

I'm talking about his first video where he draws the connection between Digra and Silverstring etc. links in info section

be warned it is a 20 minute video

[AlexanderDitto]

Darlings:

This dude is wasting your time. He's a conspiracy theorist. He will literally believe anything, from any source (including a conservative "news website" that is well known to propagate hoaxes for political gain), if it affirms his misguided personal vendetta. He's obsessing over a mailing list. As though journalists aren't free to talk to each other about the stories they're covering.

He has staked his self-importance to this fight, so he can't back down now. It's only going to get more bananas. Follow Graham's advice, don't waste your time. Ignore him. You can add him to your Foe list by visiting his profile and clicking "Add Foe." I know I have! It makes things much more tidy.

We were actually moving toward having an interesting conversation before he showed up again.

[jacetheSJW]

Is the video monetized? Because if it isn't, I may actually consider starting to watch it.
Regarding "artifically inflating the popularity of Quinn's game," Leigh Alexander wrote an excellent article on the do's and don't of dealing with on-line harassment (http://leighalexander.net/but-what-can- ... ne-sexism/). One thing she suggest is, rather than drawing attention to the harassment a person is unjustly receiving, celebrating their works and accomplishments. Of course, Leigh's a SJW, so you wouldn't agree with her anyways. I feel the beginning of this whole debacle would be a great time to review Depression Quest, to celebrate the work of someone who's being told "you don't belong here, leave."

Leigh Alexander? Writing an article about online harassment? Hmm. Leigh has quickly become a meme do to some of her, shall we say, colorful exchanges on Twitter. I'll leave these here for you guys to peruse at your leisure.

note: I am not saying the article you linked to is wrong because it comes from Leigh

http://theralphretort.com/gamergate-exp ... ic-gaming/

http://theralphretort.com/gamergate-exp ... er-part-2/

[AdmiralMemo]

Darlings:

This dude is wasting your time. He's a conspiracy theorist. He will literally believe anything, from any source (including a conservative "news website" that is well known to propagate hoaxes for political gain), if it affirms his misguided personal vendetta. He's obsessing over a mailing list. As though journalists aren't free to talk to each other about the stories they're covering.

He has staked his self-importance to this fight, so he can't back down now. It's only going to get more bananas. Follow Graham's advice, don't waste your time. Ignore him. You can add him to your Foe list by visiting his profile and clicking "Add Foe." I know I have! It makes things much more tidy.

We were actually moving toward having an interesting conversation before he showed up again.

Eh... It's amusing to me, and it's somewhat helping me get out of my depression. It's kind of cathartic to argue with him, to me. Until/unless he says something that really gets under my skin, I'm enjoying this diversion. Not really wasting my time, if it has some purpose, even if it's not the purpose that Jace wants.

[jacetheSJW]

Darlings:

This dude is wasting your time. He's a conspiracy theorist. He will literally believe anything, from any source (including a conservative "news website" that is well known to propagate hoaxes for political gain), if it affirms his misguided personal vendetta. He's obsessing over a mailing list. As though journalists aren't free to talk to each other about the stories they're covering.

He has staked his self-importance to this fight, so he can't back down now. It's only going to get more bananas. Follow Graham's advice, don't waste your time. Ignore him.

We were actually moving toward having an interesting conversation before he showed up again.

http://pastebin.com/RhmR3aij

"SilverString Media was in the limelight over the last few weeks regarding the GamerGate movement over Twitter, within the gaming community, and across the media sphere. SilverString has come out and defended themselves as they have the right to do, but with some hard work and late nights there has been discovered very close links between SilverString, DiGRA, Gamasutra, and numerous other individuals and corporations which exist in academia and the gaming press.

By looking at publicly available information across a variety of websites we have found information which indicates a rather intricate network of cross-connections within the Indie Gaming world and its press. All citations are at the bottom of this document with links to the appropriate pages. In the event that the pages are taken offline, screencaps of those websites and the relevant information have been saved.

The biggest player we found in all of this was Gamasutra, but let’s start at the top with SilverString Media and work our way down.

The first discrepancy is the date of SilverString Media’s founding. Their website states that they were founded on January 1, 2013 (or this may just be the foundation of the website), but the LinkedIn page of SilverString notes that the company has existed since 2011 [1] [2]. The key players at SilverString while making these links are Lucas JW Johnson (Founder, CEO, Director of Narrative), Maya Kramer (PR,Programming,Art), Zoya Street (Game Design Historian, Industry Consultant), and a person who is not on their staff page, Andrew Grant Wilson, whose LinkedIn*** profile shows that he has, in some capacity, worked for or with SilverString Media in the past as a partner (Writer, Narrative Designer, Experimental Game Artist, Architect) [3].

While not of terrible importance, it should be noted that Andrew Wilson and Lucas Johnson both attended the University of British Colombia, though no connection has been made beyond that.

The next issue to address is a rather notable DiGRA panel from a conference in 2014. The notable names at this panel at DiGRA 2014 are Mia Consalvo, Adrienne Shaw, Zoya Street, and Andrew Grant Wilson [4]. Mia Consalvo has been the President of DiGRA’s executive board since 2012 [27a,b].The DiGRA panel addresses the movement of the DiGRA ideology from simply existing within academia to within the industry itself, that industry being video games. Zoya Street and Andrew Grant Wilson were on this panel to offer suggestions on the appropriate way to do this and are directly related to SilverString Media [5]. However, note*** these connections and remember these names. Adrienne Shaw will show up again later along with Mia Consalvo."

[korvys]

if there was a mailing list for another industry which it was theoretically possible to misuse (but with no evidence that anyone had done it), would that be a problem?

No, as long as all the participants were on the same level, there is no issue. The issue would be a problem if there was an imbalance of power. A game publisher having the ear of a board member of a magazine would be kinda sketchy (though still not proof of anything).

This is why a lot of companies allow employees to date, as long as they are not (in)directly reporting to one another. That power dynamic could cause all sort of problems, while dating someone on the same level as you is probably fine (though potentially uncomfortable).

I guess it could depend on the industry as well. Certain areas should be held to a far higher standard, though this is pretty much limited to civil service, like cops or court officials.

One more thought, it's interesting how much of these people's arguments are built on previous claims, which are built on previous claims, etc. The early ones have systematically been disproven, but the more recent ones are a few steps ahead, so stay stable just long enough to be the foundation of the next claim.

[jacetheSJW]

I have to go, but I strong encourage you actually look at what various Anons have gathered on DiGRA. A conspiracy theory it is not.

[AdmiralMemo]

Hey dude. Just a point to make: you're posting on the forum of a Canadian comedy troupe that is personally good friends with Maya Kramer. We fans have seen Maya frequently in LRR videos, Feed Dumps, and for extended periods at Desert Bus. Posting a link to something that considers her to be part of this grand conspiracy is not going to win you any friends, since we have evidence that she is not someone who is like that.

[Firbozz]

Y'know, I think we can actually mine an interesting topic out off all this crap: How should Patreon be handled? Is is problematic for people within games journalism to be funding game creators and vice-versa?

[JustAName]

Yeah. Targeting Felix here really isn't going to work out well for you.

[korvys]

Also I love how absolutely none of the claims of actual issues have been substantiated, so all they have left is "People from this industry all go to the same industry events, and talk to other people in the industry. Also, people who worked for one company in this industry later worked for a different company in this industry".

I'm waiting for them to get to the conclusion that the mastermind is Kevin Bacon.

[Duckay]

I don't think asking whether this is ethical is illegitimate. However, I also feel that nothing that has been shown indicates that it isn't ethical. It is about where you draw the line, that's true - hence why I raised the point about weighing up potential for misuse, consequences of misuse and benefits of legitimate use.

I also know there's a real discussion to be had here and there are people who fall on both sides of the discussion on the forum, so I have no problem debating this point. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[AdmiralMemo]

Y'know, I think we can actually mine an interesting topic out off all this crap: How should Patreon be handled? Is is problematic for people within games journalism to be funding game creators and vice-versa?

Not problematic to me until it gets into "tit for tat" territory. Like the original (false) claim of the Zoe Quinn issue, if "sex for good game ratings" was legit, that would be a problem. Similarly, if a game creator and a journalist were to do some sort of deal where the journalist funded the game creator in exchange for something, that would be a problem.

But if the journalist simply truly likes the game, then there's nothing wrong with them funding it, to me.

[Duckay]

The logical counter to that, Memo, is how do we know if it is really because they like the game or because there has been a behind the scenes trade?

I'm not saying I agree that it is wrong, but that's the potential loophole in your argument.

[korvys]

Y'know, I think we can actually mine an interesting topic out off all this crap: How should Patreon be handled? Is is problematic for people within games journalism to be funding game creators and vice-versa?

That is an interesting topic.

You could take it to extremes and see how it looks. If say, I was a games journalist, and just happened to be wealthy (not likely, but roll with it), and a friend came to me and said "I have an idea for a game, can you give me some money" and I did, and then they made it, and then I wrote about it, would that be a conflict? Yes, I'd say so.

But what if you backed away from that extreme. What if I just lent them the money? What if it was only a small amount? What if they gave me something in return for the money? What if I gave them money for something else, like maybe I felt bad about their medical bills or something, and then they later made a game? Does buying a game from them previously (a transaction which is presumably profitable for them) count as giving them money?

(Thoughts in loose order of unethical to ethical, though needs more thought)

I feel like there's a line where it crosses to ethical. But it's a bit blurry. Where does Patreon fall? Probably somewhere near the line, though on what side is debatable. (I'd say ethical, myself)

Ultimately, I think disclosing a Patreon donation is pretty much all you need to turn questionable (to some people) into absolutely ethical.