What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Mr.Doh » 02 Oct 2014, 11:56

empath wrote:Or - as when I read "Way to cost Activision $2.5M, guys", I think - this is NOTHING to do with conspiracy, collusion or any sort of agenda or concerted effort to cause something, but a snarky retort in regards to someone accidentally bringing about this apparent multimillion-dollar misfortune.

"Never assume malice when incompetence will suffice." - Hanlon's Razor

For someone to conclude that something IS evidence of a conspiracy when there's plenty of contrary interpretations evident shows more about that person than the supposed 'evidence'...


Just keep in mind that one of #gamergate's chief complaint is that there's collusion behind the scenes between journalists. And the presence of the mailing list point toward that. As someone who have been archiving this from the beginning, it is best to stay on the err side. I mean, if you are going to tell me that we discovered IGF/IndieCade corruptions and everything in between, i'd laugh your ass out of the room and never bother with #gamergate again.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Deedles » 02 Oct 2014, 12:03

The owner of that very journalist group came out and said that there is nothing secret about this group as it holds 152 members and several of them have mentioned that google group several times already in tweets.

It's real easy to find a conspiracy if you look hard enough. Heck, I know everything about it as a person with social anxiety I think up conspiracies of how people I hang out will either unanimously freeze me out of the social circle or hate me behind my back, and I can certainly find proof that'll suit my anxious mind when I'm looking for it... But realize it's all bullshit when I actually have a moment of clarity.

If that group was really an attempt to control game journalism and the owner of the Escapist disagreed with said conspiracy so much that he 'defied them' and kept the GamerGate thread open... Why hasn't he and others come out and said anything yet? Surely simply being part of the group wouldn't suck out your freewill and moral backbone.
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Matt
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Matt » 02 Oct 2014, 12:16

Rathkor wrote:Just to be clear, you just said it was okay to shut down a forum who was expressing opinions you disagree with and that one of the higher ranking employees of the site claimed we were actually discussing things in a civil manner?


Just to be clear, what I said, is that there is nothing wrong with telling someone responsible for a particular forum or thread that you believe they should close that forum or thread.

Rathkor wrote:So, just because they FAILED to do something means they get a pass on trying to do it in the first place? So, it's only bad if they succeed?


No, I am pointing out that you're claiming that people exercised power they don't have. Ben Kuchera doesn't have the power to shut down a thread at the escapist. He said some words at Tito. Tito disagreed.

COLLUSION.

Rathkor wrote:Zoe Quinn, it would seem, is no stranger to sexual harassment.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1BPzMLJ9xAU/U ... ilfish.PNG

So, If it's okay to report on on act of sexual harassment, why not the other?


The allegation you posted there may be true. I don't know. If it were true, there would not, per se be anything wrong with covering it. However, that incident was not among the stories being discussed in the game journos thread. Those were: professional misconduct in the form of unwanted and sexually explicit messages sent by a journo to a developer, and the consenting, if perhaps unfaithful relationships had by a developer outside a professional setting.

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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Rathkor » 02 Oct 2014, 12:17

The owner of that very journalist group also compared it the the JournoList, which turned out to be a big deal. A breach of ethics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList

That got a lot of people in trouble. And the owner knew that when he created the list, he references it directly, calling it his inspiration for creating his group.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Rathkor » 02 Oct 2014, 12:23

"No, I am pointing out that you're claiming that people exercised power they don't have. Ben Kuchera doesn't have the power to shut down a thread at the escapist. He said some words at Tito. Tito disagreed.

COLLUSION."

Matt Matt Matt, you're missing the fact that they were still trying to pressure him into shutting it down, despite the fact that they were told by Tito himself that ha had talked to the members of that thread and they were being civil. They still wanted it shut down. They wanted to shut down a civil discussion because they disagreed with the opinions in it. And they were trying to apply pressure to him to get it shut down. Why get that mad at a discussion if it is being civil and not actually producing harassment?

"The allegation you posted there may be true. I don't know. If it were true, there would not, per se be anything wrong with covering it. However, that incident was not among the stories being discussed in the game journos thread. Those were: professional misconduct in the form of unwanted and sexually explicit messages sent by a journo to a developer, and the consenting, if perhaps unfaithful relationships had by a developer outside a professional setting."

Fair enough. What about the other thing I posted? Where her boyfriend asked her is she had sex with him without his consent and she admitted to it? Seems like that would be newsworthy, but that never showed up in the news, did it?
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Mr.Doh » 02 Oct 2014, 12:25

Deedles wrote:The owner of that very journalist group came out and said that there is nothing secret about this group as it holds 152 members and several of them have mentioned that google group several times already in tweets.

It's real easy to find a conspiracy if you look hard enough. Heck, I know everything about it as a person with social anxiety I think up conspiracies of how people I hang out will either unanimously freeze me out of the social circle or hate me behind my back, and I can certainly find proof that'll suit my anxious mind when I'm looking for it... But realize it's all bullshit when I actually have a moment of clarity.

If that group was really an attempt to control game journalism and the owner of the Escapist disagreed with said conspiracy so much that he 'defied them' and kept the GamerGate thread open... Why hasn't he and others come out and said anything yet? Surely simply being part of the group wouldn't suck out your freewill and moral backbone.


If it isn't secret....why not release all of them for the public then?

Heck, i mean the IRC Public Chatlog was released in merely 2 hours after ZQ and her "leak post". If #burgerandfries had nothing to hide, then what does Kyle Orland and his mailing list have to hide?
And Greg Tito did come out and only say that he doesn't want the leaks that had his involvement in it to be use as reason for harassment, and that's about it. And keep in mind after the reveal there had been total radio silence on the journalist side.

For a bunch of people claiming that the mailing list is innocent and no collusion involved, there are a lot of secrecy involve here. Nevermind the whole precedent that is the JournoList thing
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Deedles » 02 Oct 2014, 12:26

I do recall what was being said in that discussion, and I strongly recall that they thought it should be shutdown because someone's personality life is none of their business. Especially when said discussion about said personal life was based on the word of a pissed off ex.

i.e. It had nothing to do with the thread discussing an opinion that they didn't agree with.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Rathkor » 02 Oct 2014, 12:29

Deedles wrote:I do recall what was being said in that discussion, and I strongly recall that they thought it should be shutdown because someone's personality life is none of their business. Especially when said discussion about said personal life was based on the word of a pissed off ex.

i.e. It had nothing to do with the thread discussing an opinion that they didn't agree with.


A pissed of ex who also published chat longs, which I've linked in here and corroborates his story.

And they didn't mind reporting on the private life of Brad Wardell, committing libel against him, on an allegation that was basically proved to be false.

If one private life is fine to publish so is the other. But the journalists avoid a story if its about someone they are friends with. And will ACTIVELY cover it up. That is the problem with the games journalists.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Deedles » 02 Oct 2014, 12:35

Him publishing logs is irrelevant. Zoe Quinn's sex life has nothing to do with us and it never will have anything to do with us, and claiming otherwise is showing a gross amount of entitlement and lack of respect towards other human beings.

It matters even less to us seeing as the one article that she was accused to of slept with someone to get never existed.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Mr.Doh » 02 Oct 2014, 12:38

Deedles wrote:Him publishing logs is irrelevant. Zoe Quinn's sex life has nothing to do with us and it never will have anything to do with us, and claiming otherwise is showing a gross amount of entitlement and lack of respect towards other human beings.

It matters even less to us seeing as the one article that she was accused to of slept with someone to get never existed.


Uhm...there are two articles that Nathan Grayson wrote that had Zoe Quinn in it. Mind you, not a review (because that's a misconception), but those two articles gave Zoe Quinn positive coverage nonetheless.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Matt » 02 Oct 2014, 12:39

Rathkor wrote:Fair enough. What about the other thing I posted? Where her boyfriend asked her is she had sex with him without his consent and she admitted to it? Seems like that would be newsworthy, but that never showed up in the news, did it?


Why would it be newsworthy among gaming sites? it has absolutely shit all to do with gaming.

Yes, she (evidently) cheated on him. Yes, that probably makes her a hypocrite and a shitty person. According to her own arguments re: consent, maybe that even makes her a rapist. But literally none of that has anything to do with the games industry - it is a private misconduct.


Rathkor wrote:And they didn't mind reporting on the private life of Brad Wardell, committing libel against him, on an allegation that was basically proved to be false.


The CEO of a game company being charged with sexual harassment in the workplace - that's actually professionally relevant.

And incidentally, the allegations against Brad Wardell were never "proved to be false". As a result of a settlement between Alexandra Miseta's suit, and Wardell's counter suit, her original charges were dismissed (as were his), and one of the settlement terms required that Miseta issue an apology letter to Wardell. We will never know the full details of that settlement, or the events as they actually ocurred.

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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Amake » 02 Oct 2014, 12:45

Well, I see the campaign of not harassing Zoe Quinn in the name of journalistic corruption is going well. Good luck, gentlemen - I assume you're all gentlemen - in your enterprise to not commit harassment, slander or lies.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Rathkor » 02 Oct 2014, 12:47

"Why would it be newsworthy among gaming sites? it has absolutely shit all to do with gaming."

You're right. A game developer admits to rape and it has nothing to do with gaming. By that logic, Brad Wardell being accused of rape is similarly unrelated to gaming. You STILL have yet to address this double standard. There are two differences in these cases. One ACTUALLY happened, and the perpetrator was friends with a lot of journalists.

"The CEO of a game company being charged with sexual harassment in the workplace - that's actually professionally relevant."

So, a CEO allegedly does something bad, stop the F**king presses. A Lowly game developer, who was already a public figure because of the Game Jam drama, not newsworthy at all?
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Matt » 02 Oct 2014, 12:49

Rathkor wrote:You STILL have yet to address this double standard.


No I haven't. One relates to professional conduct, one doesn't. That's the distinction. I've made it repeatedly.

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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Rathkor » 02 Oct 2014, 12:50

Amake wrote:Well, I see the campaign of not harassing Zoe Quinn in the name of journalistic corruption is going well. Good luck, gentlemen - I assume you're all gentlemen - in your enterprise to not commit harassment, slander or lies.


I'm accusing JOURNALISTS of enacting a double standard because the person in question was their friend. Meaning I'm calling out their ETHICS. Just because she's mentioned doesn't mean she's the focus.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Amake » 02 Oct 2014, 12:53

You misunderstand, Rathkor. I agree with you. Let's not forget what's important here. We're talking about maybe hundreds of dollars in falsely earned videogame sales based on biased reviews. What is the life of a woman or three compared to that?
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Deedles » 02 Oct 2014, 12:54

Seeing as you're so certain of her having committed sexual assault I assume you have proof to reference?

Also, calling out the ethics of journalists for defending a friend(who got ran out of her own home because of threats) also has nothing to do with video games, so why did it suddenly become a discussion about how games journalism is not ethical? Seeing as the subject matter doesn't have anything to do with games?

I also want to add that I do not condone cheating on ones partner, but in the end unless it's a friend of mine coming to me to talk to me about it it's none of my goddamn business, and it's not the internet's business either just because Eron decided to spam it with his giant monologue about it.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Matt » 02 Oct 2014, 12:55

Amake wrote:maybe hundreds of dollars in falsely earned videogame sales



Literally zeroes of dollars. Depression quest is a free game.

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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Rathkor » 02 Oct 2014, 12:56

Matt wrote:
Rathkor wrote:You STILL have yet to address this double standard.


No I haven't. One relates to professional conduct, one doesn't. That's the distinction. I've made it repeatedly.

-m


Okay. fair enough. Sleeping with your boss is professional misconduct. That's another thing she admits to in those logs. And again, after the Game Jam drama, she was a public figure related to gaming. So, now is it the same? Both are people in the gaming industry who committed professional misconduct. Only one ever got any news coverage.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Rathkor » 02 Oct 2014, 13:00

Amake wrote:You misunderstand, Rathkor. I agree with you. Let's not forget what's important here. We're talking about maybe hundreds of dollars in falsely earned videogame sales based on biased reviews. What is the life of a woman or three compared to that?


Corruption is corruption, no matter the amount. All that had to be done to avoid all of this, or at least delayed it until the next major controversy, was to take the journalist, make him make a public apology, and tell people they will be reviewing their ethics policy. The Escapist actually got an increase in traffic by 10% for updating their ethics policy. Pretty much no one would be screaming about corruption if the sites had just done something that simple. Something that would happen in literally any other industry.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Deedles » 02 Oct 2014, 13:02

Oh no, and indie developer got some credit, now the world is undoubtedly going praise everything she does and says. Grab the pitchforks, people!

*shakes head* I'm gonna leave the discussion now, because I'm getting really pissed that some contest and recognition is being seen as more important than the fact that the lives of several females within the gaming industry are being ruined.

That shows a disgusting lack of priorities to me, and if you really want ethics in gaming journalism GamerGate should check the ethics of their own damn cause first. Clean your own damn house before you go complaining about how someone else's is dirty.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Amake » 02 Oct 2014, 13:04

Matt wrote:
Amake wrote:maybe hundreds of dollars in falsely earned videogame sales



Literally zeroes of dollars. Depression quest is a free game.

-m

Oh, I was trying to be generous and include the entirety of biased journalism that may plague the indie game scene. Surely it's not just one developer who's singled out in this campaign against the enthusiast press.
Last edited by Amake on 02 Oct 2014, 13:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Matt » 02 Oct 2014, 13:05

Rathkor wrote:Okay. fair enough. Sleeping with your boss is professional misconduct. That's another thing she admits to in those logs.


Sleeping with your boss might be professional misconduct.

But you're still going to have to do better than that to hit newsworthiness. Did one of them break the law?An acrimonious split that fractured the company? Charges filed against one or the other?

Why do I care who she's sleeping with? What's the fallout? How is this an issue between Quinn and the industry, rather than an issue between the interlocking parts of two acquaintances?

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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Amake » 02 Oct 2014, 13:11

Rathkor wrote:Corruption is corruption, no matter the amount. All that had to be done to avoid all of this, or at least delayed it until the next major controversy, was to take the journalist, make him make a public apology, and tell people they will be reviewing their ethics policy. The Escapist actually got an increase in traffic by 10% for updating their ethics policy. Pretty much no one would be screaming about corruption if the sites had just done something that simple. Something that would happen in literally any other industry.

I'm trying to agree with you on general principles, but you keep bringing it back to the issue of Zoe Quinn. Man you're bad at this.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Matt » 02 Oct 2014, 13:13

Amake wrote:
Rathkor wrote:Corruption is corruption, no matter the amount. All that had to be done to avoid all of this, or at least delayed it until the next major controversy, was to take the journalist, make him make a public apology, and tell people they will be reviewing their ethics policy. The Escapist actually got an increase in traffic by 10% for updating their ethics policy. Pretty much no one would be screaming about corruption if the sites had just done something that simple. Something that would happen in literally any other industry.

I'm trying to agree with you on general principles, but you keep bringing it back to the issue of Zoe Quinn. Man you're bad at this.


"How many 'Q's are there in the word in 'ethics'?"

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