What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

[AdmiralMemo]

*is apparently not part of "everybody"*

[Jamfalcon]

People are speaking hyperbolically, Memo. It's not that Maya flirts with anyone and everyone who follows them or makes a reply. From what I've seen, it's with people they know, or those that do the same to them (and by extension, they get to know). Seriously, you're not being singled out and ignored personally.

Anyhow, I was already strongly of the opinion that this whole thing was ridiculous, because it really just seems to be saying that people within the industry know and like each other. I was just wondering a few days ago if/when it would get to Maya, and I will admit that now it's targeting someone I already followed and liked it is bothering me even more. I've been follow them for a couple years now, and knowing what I do about them, all these rumours are just mind boggling.

Regarding the Escapist thing, I'm really not a fan of the way it was presented or handled. I haven't read anything else in that thread, and sure, if it's just a case of having a clearly defined code of ethics that's not inherently bad. But that wasn't the time or place to implement it, because this shouldn't be a scandal or a big deal. By changing it in response to the outcry, the Escapist just looks like the agree with and support all that. I've already been drifting away from the site aside from video content and one or two columns (where in the past I read consume almost everything on it), and this certainly doesn't make me regret that direction.

[Graham]

Yeah, I don't know how I feel about Alex Macris' response to this. Conflicted, certainly.

[Matt]

Speaking personally, I am not at all conflicted.

May he get the audience he courts.

-m

[Graham]

That's OUR audience, Matt.
Did you miss the part where he runs The Escapist?

THAT'S why I'm conflicted.

[Matt]

I am aware of that. But I also trust that as content creators rather than staff, (and as the good, progressive people I know you are) you will continue to challenge and subvert the expectations of that audience until such a time as you no longer need to rely on the Escapist as a platform.

But Marcis appears to be drawing a line in the sand, and throwing his content creators and writers under the bus in the process. (And this is definitely a shitty situation to be in, as a result).

Hell, at one point in that fucking thread he appears to have compared gamergate to the German blitzkrieg of WWII, casting the press as the nazis. Make of that what you will.



-m

[Valkyrie-Lemons]

I don't know if this counts for anything, but I haven't even heard of this guy, let alone that he ran The Escapist.

Maybe I'm the only one who goes The Escapist who doesn't know this guy, but I doubt how he's responded to this issue (I don't even know what's his stance even is, but I'm guessing from the reactions it's not good) will affect many people who go to the site.

I get how you might be conflicted that someone who effectively pays you (I'm assuming you get paid something by them) holds a view you disagree with, but I don't know how many people would think bad about you guys for not doing anything about it.


But that's just my view.

[Elomin Sha]

I don't know him either. To be honest I don't go to the Escapist anymore since they got rid of Reel Physics.

[AdmiralMemo]

People are speaking hyperbolically, Memo. It's not that Maya flirts with anyone and everyone who follows them or makes a reply. From what I've seen, it's with people they know, or those that do the same to them (and by extension, they get to know). Seriously, you're not being singled out and ignored personally.

OK, that would've been nice to know 10 hours sooner, because now I'm in a funk, regardless of the facts.

[korvys]

Given the state of the Escapist forums in the last couple of years (see https://twitter.com/Escapist_TXT for some cherry picked examples), this does not surprise me at all.

[AdmiralMemo]

Yeah, I abandoned the Escapist forums after what happened during Kathleen's "Cami-gate" incident. Stuck with the site itself for a while longer before drifting away.

[Elomin Sha]

Cami-gate?

And why does everything need a gate after it? Nothing is going to match Watergate.

[Master Gunner]

During an episode of ENN, Kathleen forgot to wear a camisole (a women's undergarment, similar to a man's undershirt) as she normally does, inadvertently revealing more cleavage than usual. Some Escapist commenters responded predictably with lurid remarks.

As to the appending of "-gate" to everything...people just aren't very imaginative, and are often terrible at naming things. I certainly wouldn't say the above incident bears any relation to a scandal in the first place, much less one deserving of the "-gate" suffix.

[Elomin Sha]

Escapist forums sound like it's filled with a ton of Omega-Baka.

[empath]

Yeah, and sadly it always has, even before LRR started doing content for them...

[Avistew]

A friend of mine wrote an article about Gamergate. I didn't read it fully get because I'm obviously biased since he's my friend, but I thought I'd share it with less biased people and see if it helps the discussion.

[Valkyrie-Lemons]

I'm not trying to be lewd here, but was the extra cleavage very noticeable?

Because if it was, the comments were uncalled for, but I can kinda see how people would notice it.

If it wasn't, than are people really that perverted they'd actually take note when they can see more cleavage than normal? Do they have charts noting this sort of thing?


It's kinda creepy that you'd actually comment that a women was showing slightly more breast than usual. Not that you could see them, the fact it's more than usual. Since y'know, women are not all about the breasts, although I get the feeling for some of those people, it's perhaps the most intimate thing they're ever going to see in a respectable woman.

[Matt]

although I get the feeling for some of those people, it's perhaps the most intimate thing they're ever going to see in a respectable woman.

Hey, just a heads up, that phrasing (also maybe the point) isn't really cool.

-m

[JackSlack]

I will simply note: I held a PubClub subscription for a long time, but they've finally pushed me to cancel it. I'm not interested in The Escapist any longer, and I hope that a lot of other people feel the same way.

I miss the days of Susan Arendt. She was good.

[Duckay]

Since y'know, women are not all about the breasts, although I get the feeling for some of those people, it's perhaps the most intimate thing they're ever going to see in a respectable woman.

What constitutes a "respectable woman", and in what way is that not a sexist statement? I'm not trying to start a fight, I really feel like you're using problematic language here. Especially given how many people (not in this thread, in the wider gaming community) are criticizing women in gaming for being supposedly too flirtatious or promiscuous.

[Jamfalcon]

I miss the days of Susan Arendt. She was good.

Yeah, it definitely feels like her departure was the start of things sliding.

That said, if I recall correctly, Alexander Marcis is one of the co-founders of The Escapist and has been in the same role this whole time—he's in charge of the business side of things, not the actual content, as I understand it.

[King Kool]

Yeah... wasn't Macris also the Escapist side of the Extra Credits' Indiegogo dust-up that moved them to PATV?

[Deedles]

Just sliding in on the 'respectable woman' topic for a moment. I tend to find all woman respectable as a default, but there are some that I deem to not be respectable. Now, the example I'm about to bring up does contain a form of intimacy, but that's not to say that a woman who likes being sexually liberal isn't respectable.

Anyway, the example was a woman in a guild that a friend of mine ran on Star Wars: The Old Republic. Alas the guild fell apart because of drama, and this woman was in the middle of it. Turned out that she was e-RPing with the guys who sided with her and part took in tearing the guild apart. They were the kind of guys(note - Not the majority, not a large part, just that kind, and you tend to find them more often in RP environments.) that are... somewhat desperate for that attention, which meant that they were wrapped around her little finger for it, and she used that to get her way in everything. A spoilt and manipulative female like that who uses her sexuality for her own gain? THAT is a what I call a non-respectable woman.

[Duckay]

Certainly I could come up with a list of negative traits that would make a person non-respectable, so I'm not troubled by the very notion that someone might think of a hypothetical woman as non-respectable. I just found the insinuation that a "respectable woman" wouldn't show a man like that intimate parts of her body to be rather sexist in nature.

Or, I guess, would a man doing the same thing also make you not respect him? If not, then maybe you (general you) should think about why.

[Valkyrie-Lemons]

What constitutes a "respectable woman", and in what way is that not a sexist statement? I'm not trying to start a fight, I really feel like you're using problematic language here. Especially given how many people (not in this thread, in the wider gaming community) are criticizing women in gaming for being supposedly too flirtatious or promiscuous.

Certainly I could come up with a list of negative traits that would make a person non-respectable, so I'm not troubled by the very notion that someone might think of a hypothetical woman as non-respectable. I just found the insinuation that a "respectable woman" wouldn't show a man like that intimate parts of her body to be rather sexist in nature.

Or, I guess, would a man doing the same thing also make you not respect him? If not, then maybe you (general you) should think about why.

I have no respect for a man who would do that sort of thing to a complete stranger, and I even have little respect for those who do it to women they know. Frankly, if a women is presenting a show and what you focus on is not the content but her looks, then yeah, I'm not going to have much respect for the guy.

As for the 'respectable women' part. I honestly don't have much respect for a women who willing (keyword here, willingly) is intimate with a man they know either does not think of them as equal or is just down right misogynist to them. Of course, I'm not talking about being in a relationship where someone may say one or two slightly sexist things (because even the best of us occasionally say something wrong even if we didn't mean it), I'm talking about obvious and constant stuff. And I'll reiterate what I said at the start of this paragraph, I'm talking about willingly, not women who are abused to stay in a relationship, or may have no way out because of fiscal reasons etc.

I'm not saying flirty woman are not respectable, promiscuous woman...ehhh, it's borderline (FYI, I hold the same standard for a man, I don't agree with the whole slut/stud negative/positive thing that often goes on). If it's simply that they enjoy sex (nothing wrong with that), then that's okay provided that the people they have sex with don't just view them as some kind of nympho sex object. If it's like Deedles example, and they use sex as a tool, then yeah, I don't have much respect. So to go back to the origin of this thread, does this mean I think Zoe Quinn is 'not respectable'? No, because I don't have all the facts so I'm not going to pass judgement on someone when I've only heard second hand accounts from likely biased sources.

So to summarise, a man who doesn't treat women with respect or doesn't see them as an equal, I don't deem respectable. A women who knows a man is like that but 'doesn't mind' or 'overlooks' that fact, I don't deem to be respectable either. Women shouldn't take the kind of crap that is often thrown at them, and I feel that women who don't challenge the crap that is thrown at them are part of the problem. It's why I totally think everyone here is respectable, very respectable actually, because you don't take this kind of crap.

So I hope that's cleared things up somewhat. If you want to ask me anything else about my statement, which I stand by, then sure, please go ahead.