What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

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JayBlanc
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JayBlanc » 30 Aug 2014, 02:26

Random observation.

This thread was started to highlight the awful behaviour and attitudes of Adam Baldwin. It has become one criticising Anita Sarkisian.

You might want to all ask yourselves why?

I think I'm going to coin the term Baldwination, to describe the effect that any thread discussing negative male behaviour in video game culture will be near instantly derailed by someone criticising Anita Sarkeesian's videos.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JackSlack » 30 Aug 2014, 03:36

Yeah. It took remarkably little time. I was a little disappointed.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Elomin Sha » 30 Aug 2014, 04:09

No, we don't need to coin any sort of term just because it is a hip and cool thing that is done nowadays.

I'm not writing to be mean spirited, you came off very 'White Knight', riding to the rescue of a damsel in distress (when she's not in any sort of damsel in distress from us).

Someone else brought up Anita in this thread so a link was already established. I hadn't seen other threads in the forum about her videos, I could have missed it, so I thought I'd ask some things that I thought may be wrong and ASKED to be corrected if I was wrong. It did turn in to a strong discussion because it's how I learn.

We were having a discussion, instigated because I thought maybe wrong with her presentation and not of who or what she is. I asked here because I respect the opinions of the forum members.

Are we not allowed to evaluate something we see?

If this was a thread solely criticising her it would be all negative points and no one countering.


Should it have been made in this thread? Probably not, but how long can we keep a thread going saying he's an idiot? Despite the thread being about hit he isn't going to be relevant for long. When was the last time he was relevant at all? Firefly? Chuck?

You should know that threads here have a habit of changing topic and going in a new direction very quickly.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby King Kool » 30 Aug 2014, 04:12

JayBlanc wrote:Random observation.

This thread was started to highlight the awful behaviour and attitudes of Adam Baldwin. It has become one criticising Anita Sarkisian.

You might want to all ask yourselves why?

I think I'm going to coin the term Baldwination, to describe the effect that any thread discussing negative male behaviour in video game culture will be near instantly derailed by someone criticising Anita Sarkeesian's videos.


I was gonna point out the same thing, but... Elomin Sha makes a good point. "Baldwin's a jerk." is pretty much as far as that would go. This didn't need to be its own thread, so the topic came back to the thing actually worth talking about.

That's why I didn't feel so bad about changing the subject a few posts ago.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby phlip » 30 Aug 2014, 04:26

JackSlack wrote:Yeah. It took remarkably little time. I was a little disappointed.

It managed to jump directly from Baldwin to Sarkeesian without even touching Quinn in the meantime, which is quite impressive... It's like, "Yeah, these topics aren't directly related, but we all know where this thread will eventually end up... let's just shortcut things, shall we?"

(For those that haven't been following: there have been Srs Bsns internet shitstorms about both Quinn and Sarkeesian in the last week or so... aside from the timing and the fact that they're both Women In Gaming, and the number of people drawing parallels between the two, I don't believe there's any real direct link between the two events...)
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JayBlanc » 30 Aug 2014, 04:30

With all due respect Elomin, you were six posts into the thread, and the only mention of Anita was people mentioning celebrities who were supporting him to offset Adam Baldwin. You didn't so much take part in a discussion, as suddenly decide that you wanted this thread to be about what you wanted it to be about. And that was criticising Anita.

And this thread doesn't exist in a vacuum. This kind of derailing behaviour is pretty common, and it's really pretty toxic. Because look, we moved very quickly from "Adam Baldwin's behaviour is--" "Oh I don't like Anita Sarkeesian's tone of voice", there wasn't even a chance to discuss the original topic! And someone later even apologises for trying to take it back to the original topic. And that poisons debate by ensuring it's only about the things the loud people want to talk about.

Also, in response to your labelling me a "White Knight", I'm just going to go ahead and directly quote Anita - "Male allies are essential in the fight for gender justice. 'White Knight' is a slur used to discourage men from taking a stand."
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Elomin Sha » 30 Aug 2014, 05:20

I honestly didn't know if you're female or male, is it a slur then?

If I really, really, REALLY wanted a thread to talk about Anita and any concerns/thoughts about her videos (not the overall message) don't you think I've had enough time to do so?

The last time I was loud was five years ago when Lying and I were being silly with our Post War to increase our post counts, something that came off a joke from Ask An Alex Live.
If you know me you know I'm not a loud individual, I listen a lot more than I speak and keep my thoughts to myself, that's why I don't get into debates (and probably shouldn't by how this whole thing has gone).

Didn't I say that what I did was probably wrong? Yes. I have apologised. What else do you seek?

What's done is done, I can't CTRL+Z the last two days, be great if we had that option in life.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Duckay » 30 Aug 2014, 05:28

This sidebar about Sarkeesian probably would have been more appropriate in the Feminism General Thread or the old Tropes vs Women thread, for what it's worth now.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JayBlanc » 30 Aug 2014, 05:30

I see absolutely nothing in your post indicative of an apology. Maybe you think you did, maybe you intended to... But what you actually did was call me a "White Knight", and then list a long string of defences.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby King Kool » 30 Aug 2014, 05:48

Calm down, everyone. This is what gets threads locked.

EDIT: Actually, they're all at PAX, aren't they? Except Paul... oh, whatever.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JustAName » 30 Aug 2014, 07:47

JayBlanc, I've got nothing against your intentions, but almost every time I've seen you post, it's been, I feel, needlessly aggressive. Sometimes I feel like you want to start a heated argument. I don't agree at all with Elomin, and I'm very glad that Ditto and Duckay have been taking up the debate while I stayed away, but I also know him and I know that he doesn't mean any insult or disrespect, and he truly wants to learn.

I think you're a decent guy, Jay, but I really think you've been acting like the feminist Wraith lately. Maybe you think placating people doesn't get anywhere in debate, but actual considered discussion is productive, not placation, and aggressively posting about how others don't get it doesn't really cause much worthwhile change.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JayBlanc » 30 Aug 2014, 08:39

I give Elomin the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant to apologise, but when he said "Yes. I have apologised. What else do you seek?" I really had to go back and double check what he'd posted to be sure it was what I had first read. I tend to react to snark with more snark.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Hiramas » 30 Aug 2014, 08:42

could not read the whole thread at work, so I apologise if I repeat stuff. I will catch up later at home.
Anyway, rape is a strong characterization. So strong, it is almost universal. But if you live close to the cliff, it will be normal for you. So the inflation of sexualized violence against human beings (predominantly women) could concievably cause a normalisation of the reception of such acts. Of course no one will regard fictional violence as serious as real violence but the thought of someone thinking "well, rape, bad guys, let's get to the killing" is quite chilling. In the end it comes down to our culture and lazy writing. With every instance we need more spectacle, a higher intensity. Regarding violence the "peak gore" is quite easily reached and the emotions go down. Rape is one of the worst crimes one could experience and it is lazy writing. I am not against the depiction of sexualized violence in media because it is a part of life and should not be hidden. At the moment the depiction of sexualized violence happens inflationary and sensationalised. It has been said often, but it is worth repeating that this kind of violence rarely is performed by strangers but rather by people the victim knows.
So,in the end, better writing would solve a lot of problems that currently exist with sexism and other isms in fiction.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Elomin Sha » 30 Aug 2014, 10:18

I appologised to Ditto and Duckay in PM for my actions in the thread.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Deedles » 30 Aug 2014, 12:43

Just wanted to pop in and refer back to something that was discussed on the previous page

Anita Sarkeesian may not be a game developer and able to make her own games herself, but, it could be within her power to start a small game studio focused on creating games that beat the tropes(which could be funded via KickStarter or such, considering how much money she got to make the documentaries the interest obviously seems to be there).

Wouldn't hold it against her if she didn't, but it's something I'd like to see anyone do, think it could be interesting to see what they'd come up with, and seeing as game tropes is something that she's currently researching as much as she is it feels like she'd be in a good position to create content that doesn't feed the tropes.

Anyway, that was my two cents.

(But just to clarify, this isn't me going "Man, Anita isn't doing enough!", but rather me just voicing something I would genuinely be interested in and happy if she, or anyone else, did, but in particularly her because of the knowledge she's currently gathering.)
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JackSlack » 30 Aug 2014, 14:26

Since we're derailed, I'm gonna say this here as well.

I've been... disheartened that twice now I've tweeted things that have been drowned in favourites from people I'd despise the views of. I've been appalled at the behaviour of guys like Devin Faraci and Moviebob.

We have the fucking high ground. Why are we so keen to get into the muck?

The end result being that I feel my actions are only helping those I despise.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby Elomin Sha » 30 Aug 2014, 14:39

What has MovieBob done?
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby korvys » 31 Aug 2014, 17:18

Movie Bob was retweeting Devin Faraci mocking Adam Baldwin and the others on that side of things. As I said earlier, he's not wrong, but he is an asshole. Some of the mocking was just straight up giving people shit for being fat, etc.

On the other hand, he is apparently a very self aware asshole.

Even if you hate him, I really urge you to read that. It's probably the least vitriolic thing to come out of the whole mess.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JackSlack » 31 Aug 2014, 17:36

I admit, I still don't like even that. I find it unbearably presumptuous and still kind of assholish.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby korvys » 31 Aug 2014, 17:47

Would you mind me asking why?

It's hits home pretty hard with me. 10 years ago, I probably would have been on the other side as well. Or maybe not, but I was definitely more of an ass that I am now.

I mean, I guess there's an assumption that because it happened to him, it's probably happening to them, and maybe that's completely wrong, and it's different for this generation. But it seems to fit pretty well, and really, the "Teenagers/Young People thinking they know everything, then looking back on how wrong they were" thing has been going on for pretty much all of human history.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JackSlack » 31 Aug 2014, 18:20

korvys wrote:I mean, I guess there's an assumption that because it happened to him, it's probably happening to them, and maybe that's completely wrong, and it's different for this generation.


That's the one. He's making some really hefty presumptions about who his opponents are.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby korvys » 31 Aug 2014, 18:48

Well, I agree with him, but I can see why you might be hesitant.

At the very least, trying to understand why these people are behaving the way they are is a much better approach than just writing them off and reacting.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby empath » 31 Aug 2014, 20:32

Because closed-minded ostracism is supposed to be the hallmark of the wrong side of this issue; we're supposed to be open-minded, accepting, and willing to reach out to others, and by so doing help them see our side of it.

...and maybe help them to see the enlightened point of view, rather than just keep them in the dark with their backward thinking for all eternity, forever being a stumbling block to any progress for society as a whole.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby korvys » 31 Aug 2014, 20:53

Your own mental health is important though. I can't blame anyone who doesn't want to engage.

I've seen people engage and turn them around, make them think about the effect their harassment has on people. I've also seen people engage and get nothing but more nastiness in return. Some (I'd possibly say most) of them have no motive but trolling. They refuse to be taught.
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Re: What is Adam Baldwin thinking?

Postby JackSlack » 31 Aug 2014, 21:04

Yeah, I admit, the end result of all of this for me has been tremendous disillusionment with both sides. Frankly? I've seen a lot more mature discussion and actual attempts at engagement from the other side than mine. I've been unbelievably disappointed with our side of the fence.

Important edit: Of course, we've also seen the flatly criminal activity and the greatest BULLSHIT from their side as well, but...

Edit again: Oh for fuck's sake.

Yes, yes there fucking is. Criminal action. Harassment. A felony. Inexcusable. But the word terrorism is a loaded fucking term, we liberals have given conservatives grief for their constant misuse of it and we don't get to do it now too.

THIS IS NOT HELPING US.

The never ending war of self-doubt, mixed feelings and edits: And yes, of course Anita's suffering tremendously. I shouldn't be expecting perfection from her, and she's no doubt trying the best she can. I know.

But this is what I'm talking about. Faraci's taunting. Moviebob's gleeful jumping in on fat-shaming someone. Sarkeesian posting up unredacted emails, including email addresses, of edit again harassment to her. Even though the last one has a sense of justice to it, I know, the end result is we look bad. We're willfully lowering ourselves into the muck rather than standing over it on the cliffs and letting our opponents smash against the walls.

We are doing this so badly.
Last edited by JackSlack on 31 Aug 2014, 21:36, edited 1 time in total.

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